Deathwing Knights: Before and After

[Frater Cornelius]

So, before they were hitting at S6 AP4 but had a once-per-game smite where all attacks turned into S10 AP2.

 

Now they are hitting at S6 AP3 but their smite has been reduced to a single attack at S8 AP2 per model, but can be used multiple times.

The Knight Master now sports Fleshbane as well.

 

There have been a few minor point changes, but the base cost for 5 dudes stayed the same.

 

In my opinion, they do not have the role of problem solvers anymore as they have lost the ability to delete any given unit in the turn they use smite. However, they are now a bit more consistent due to AP3 and thus making them effective against pretty much anything short of TEQ.

 

What do you think, are they better off with that change? I think the consistency is very welcome, but I need to get myself a different problem-solver now.

[IanSturrock]

I had a few games, even in tournaments, where I got them into several fights but never bothered with Smite, because it wasn't necessary or even would have been overkill.

However, the flexibility to (as you say) delete most things, was significant. I'm not sure that AP3 is enough of a boon as a replacement. They've now become durable bully units though, which could be handy especially if you can somehow give them hit and run...

[Saphrael]

I think they're definitely worse off. Without the awesome Smite ability they don't have a role to fill. Why would I ever prefer them to hamminators? They're great MEQ killers now, but so are refular termies. And now they're next to impossible to incorporate in any of the detachments/formations.

 

Of course, I might be biased because my main opponent is orks and I never really suffered from the AP4: it cut swathes through all his normal stuff and then I just opened up with Smite and annihilated whole squads of MANz and Nob biker before they even got to role any dice >:)

[Frater Cornelius]

Compare that to a DW Command Squad. For 240pts you get 5 dudes, 3 TH/SS, 1 Apothecary, 1 Champion. Or go up to 245 for 3 TH/SS and a sergeant with TH/SS and Apothecary. You get one less guy attacking and one less attack on the sergeant, but you have permanent S8 AP2 on all attacks and FnP. For 20 additional points you can get everyone in the unit +1A with the Banner. Throw in Ezekiel and you his with 5A on the charge. 6 if you got Rage on Interromancy. I think that is a superior problem-solver, even though you pay 5-30 extra points depending on setup. Less suited against massed of cheap guys due to I1 but that is what you have the other wings for. DW need to be tough problem-solvers, not your trash cleaners.

[Daevyll]

As an army list entry, DWK are improved. As an army-list however the DA Codex is worse off in the case of DWK. 

 

DWK are now a generally good unit, useful against almost anything during every turn. However, the DA codex already has several units that filled that role.

The Codex had only one unit which could be used as an ultimate ace-in-the-hole to almost certainly obliterate, say, a Daemon Prince or Knight once per game.

 

Overall, what we gained in tactical usefullness of the DWK is more than lost in strategic ability. 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I still think they are a powerhouse. T5, WS5, I4, S6 AP3 attacks in normal mode is a huge boon. Before they could be tarpited with MEQ's and you had to use your smite charge in order to get rid of them. There is no such thing anymore.

When it comes to Smite S10 to S8 makes a small difference vs vehicle but some difference vs dreadnoughts.

They now do smite with half the attacks, but they can do it indefinitely. Against 2+ saves/high Toughness they won't be so quick getting rid of them because of less attacks, but it also means that you can keep dealing with several 2+/high T units throughout the game.  S8 AP2 means they are still in the game as problem solvers but it ill cost them an extra turn... Which can be beneficial for their survival.

Ex:Considering before that DWK charged, Smited and killed their enemy being an easy target when the enemy turn came, now they will charge and finish the enemy on the enemy's assault phase being "free" to move and charge another unit in their next following turn.

So I think all in all it was not so bad that their power got dialed a bit back.

[Dread_Hospitaller]

I say DW knights stayed about the same, maybe even improved a bit. For one, they now sweep through MEQ and TEQ consistently for an entire game instead of just in one round since their smash is still at initiative, so they still function as single unit killers. They no longer confer their +1 toughness to non-SS characters, so outside of a th/ss belial they'll be on their own. They're still durable and have kept their higher WS, so I see no reason not to think they'll be able to fight through anything I would have thrown them at previously; the knight-master getting fleshbane pretty much seals it for me: against daemon princes, greater daemons, wraithknights, tyranid monstrous creatures, avatars, wraithlords, thunderpuppy cavalry, everything, these guys are still king.

[Frater Cornelius]

T4 with FnP is superior to T5 against S5, 6 and 7. I agree that DWK are better general combat unit. But the Command Squad is the better high profile breaker, like TWC, Knights and similar.

[DarkProdigy]

For me, I used to use my Dwk charging out of a raider to kill things like wraith knights, which they did without fail. Their prospects now are a little worse, wound on 6s with 3 attacks each or smite to wounding on 4s with one attack. Fleshbane on the master helps to differentiate him since he lacks smite and makes him a monster against monstrous and gargantuan creatures that lack 2+ saves, but yeah the unit is going to spend more time stuck in (which means more time to roll those 1s on armor saves).

 

I will continue to use then to test, but I think strength 10 is worth a lot more than it gets credit for. Thankfully, my buddy hector Rex fixes that for them AND buffs those lovely storm shields.

 

Still though, I feel that high initiative is a bit wasted when you lack the volume of attacks to kill or mostly kill the enemy before they hit back. They are better against meq to be sure, but far too expensive for that role anyway. Remember the knight master already had ap3, with his 4 attacks he was usually good enough for dealing with any msu meq speedbumps on the way to the real target.

 

In summary for me, good unit, situationally improved, but new stats leaves a bit of a gap in ability to deal with superheavies and gargantuans. My Knights earned a reputation in my flgs- imperial Knights and super heavies of all types would stay a minimum 24" away from my knight raider. I fear that may no longer be the case.

[Elios Harg]

They'll still wollop Wraithknights and any other MCs as long as the knight master is alive, between fleshbane and smite.

[Frater Cornelius]

They'll still wollop Wraithknights and any other MCs as long as the knight master is alive, between fleshbane and smite.

 

No. Smite is 4A with S8 AP2 with 4 Knights. That is less than 1 DWCS dude. The Fleshbane is the only one who could do any damage, but still nothing compared to DWCS with TH and nothing against an IK or AV14.

[march10k]

I've had them whiff on their smite often enough that I'm okay with the change...the worst one was when they charged a trygon and sunk...one wound.  Then the squad stood around, flailing ineffectually at the damned thing till Belial came over with the sword of silence and rescued them. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I've had them whiff on their smite often enough that I'm okay with the change...the worst one was when they charged a trygon and sunk...one wound.  Then the squad stood around, flailing ineffectually at the damned thing till Belial came over with the sword of silence and rescued them. 

 

Since T5 is equal to T4 + FnP against S4 and superior when S3 or less, that makes DWK the better MEQ and less killers. They will punch their way through SM, Bikes, Jetbikes, Orks, Gaunts, GEQ and all that trash in no time and much better due to the higher I. However, againt elite units like TWC, TEQ, Nobs, Land Raiders, Knights, Dreadnoughts, Dreadknights, Wraithknights and all that heavy business, the CS wins by having more punch behind their attacks. Even just 2 dudes can potentially do far more damage against T6 than 4 DWK + Sarge.

[Elios Harg]

That depends a lot on the weapon skill and armor save of the T6. Assuming WS 4 and 3+ saves, DWKs will average 6.5 wounds on the charge from HOW, and standard attacks from flail and maces.

 

A DWCS with 4TH/SS (apothecary loses fist), will do 6.778.

 

Against WS<4 and WS5-WS8, the gap will increase in favor of the DWCS.

Against WS<4 the DWCS will average 9.037 while the DWKs will stay the same.

 

Against ws5-8, the dwks will drop to 4.944 while the CS stays the same at 6.778.

 

Against ws9+, the CS drops to 4.52, while the DWKs stay at 4.944.

 

Another factor would be I. Against I<4, DWKs will likely perform better since they will get to attack first.

 

Against WS5-8 T7, DWCS would do 5.556. DWKs do 3.944 with normal mode.

 

Against WS5-8 T8, DWCS do 4. DWKs do 2.667

 

Against WS5-8 T5, DWCS do 6.667. DWKs do 6.222.

 

 

There is no doubt that DWCS outperforms against vehicles, especially AV13-14. But they don't seem far behind against most MCs except those that are WS3 or less. And while they'll kill 2+ saves slower they also get to attack sooner than TH/SS termies would, which can be a factor in both surviving and offense.

 

BTW, against anything that allows FNP, the DWCS will take about half then casualties of DWKs. Most things that don't allow FNP won't give a crap about T5 either.

 

Are there any WS4 T4-5 I4 or lower 3+ save models in the game? That is where DWKs will truly shine over the DWCS.

 

All calculations are based on getting the charge and having a DW banner in the DWCS in 5 man units for both. It is worth noting that you can almost purchase another DWK for the difference in price (30 pts) of the squads.

[Darkangeldentist]

I'm very neutral about the changes. I think the difference between our hard hitting options have been clarified and made the options more distinct from each other. Thunder hammer and storm shield is now our default best option for cracking really high armour and 2+ save stuff with the option to chuck in a chainfist if you want. (That's a really nice boon in my view.) However they now cost noticeably more than before and relative to knights or regular terminators are less value for money.

 

Knights are still the all-purpose tool that can deal with just about anything. With the change to smite they are no longer a one-hit wonder but the power of smite has been vastly reduced. On the positive they now mulch MEQs far better than before, this was one the things people used to complain about them and that's been fixed in the simplest way possible. Smite is niche but useful and means that knights are never completely stuck regardless of what they face. However no ranged presence combines with this to make the still one of the most combat focused and dependent units in the game.

 

Compared to Deathwing command squads the knights are for the most part a close match. If you want hammer terminators then the command squad is one of the best ways to field them since the apothecary (although still loses the powerfist) is now appropriately costed and feel no pain is very potent for such expensive models. However the command squad has a fixed size unlike knights and if you take options like a standard or other support can start costing appreciably more than the knights.

 

So now we have a much more interesting and less clear cut choice for an elite combat unit. 

• Deathwing command squad: Can be equipped as you like with options for apothecary, standard and thunder hammer & storm shields. Perfect for monster hunting and cracking tanks. Fixed squad size leaves them very vulnerable to casualties and they are quite expensive.
• Deathwing knights: Unchanged in base cost but a tiny bit cheaper for extra models and much more effective against marines and still great for mulching hordes of foes. Striking at initiative is a huge deal here and their durability makes them rarely a bad choice.
• Deathwing terminators: Cheaper and still just as flexible. Split-fire and vengeful strike leave them still wanting some ranged weaponry and grim resolve adds to this value a little but not much. This makes them less of a combat focused unit although you can still equip them with thunder hammers but the cost can quickly spiral if you take a big squad. These are the guys you want when you're unsure what you need them for and just want a punchy unit with flexible options.

 

With no option to make Deathwing terminators troops each stands equal to the others to field and so should be equivalent to each other in terms of value but distinct to ensure they aren't simply cosmetically different. Too early to say if they've got the balance perfect but I'm fairly confident this time around each does it's job well enough and those roles don't completely overlap.