Brother Raul Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Ok not only has C:SM been updated but now C:DA has too. Numerous topics have been discussed regarding this new content and I am really trying to be positive in my analysis of what this means for the Sons of Sanguinus and how to embrace these changes. Firstly, GW is blowing me away with new content. To be competitive this is now a full time job. Wow, stimulating to be sure but am I alone in feeling a little overwhelmed by changes/ new content? Memorising formations? Forget it. Secondly GW are making codexes that are fluffy. Great news for people who like good news I think all the codexes released since Dark Eldar have been great fluff wise. Unfortunately we get slightly less more bling from GW because of this, see our chapter is noble, which doesn't grant ANY good USR's. +1 int from BASF was great before C:SM, C:DA, C:CWE and C:NE were released. Most of us are now running FT formations or CADs. Thirdly I really think composite chapter/ allies SM armies are now very, very competitive. I really prefer to play C:BA but I am seriously considering making an old school Angels of Death list. A Dark shroud with strike force mortalis=no overwatch & +4 cover save while coming up the board/ A big you to any gunline. Practically anything else you could ally in from the 7th ed C:DA would complement our list. Anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I'm totally going to be running BSF and Ravenwing together for sure. Use our force org for the elites and I5 DC, then supplement with mobile firepower in speeders and black Knights for more combat support. As I understand we could boost a sizable portion of RW forward turn one, all gain 2+ rerolable cover while the DC jump forward too. Meltacide take out the big threats. Fast vindicators Slam forward too with no real worry of friendly fire with a 2+ reroll. Lots of synergy, very aggressive, how I like it. Not to mention you could also hold the RW in reserve. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4105252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caine 24th Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 2+ re-roll. Let me just pause on that for a moment... Well at this rate I wouldn't be entirely surprised if a new edition comes out next year and new codexes along with it. It is hard to keep up. I see a great variety at tournaments, but usually only a play a few armies regularly among my group. So even though i'm acquainted with the barrage of new rules/formations/etc I haven't played against them enough to know them well. I'm not sure it's necessarily a problem, but we all make mistakes on the rules and it is a concern that I might play someone at a tournament and have no idea that they are doing something really wrong. I've yet to fight harliquins, new eldar, dark eldar or new space marine variants. I don't know, Blood Angels are in an interesting spot. It seems like formations previously were an afterthought. Then Shield of Baal appeared to be GW's real experiment to see how things could work. So we've really got a lot of formations, but most with marginally effective benefits. And, that certainly isn't the case with some of these new space marine formations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4106552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 2+ re-roll. Let me just pause on that for a moment... Mantle of the laughing god (now defunct) provided that for a couple of years. Screamer stars with cursed ground also got some of the same. Hardly game breaking, fortunately, as its just for a turn. They still die to Dark Reapers, so wont dominate tournaments, much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4106662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Also, thats a cover save, so anything with an ap3 flamer template says 'hi fools!'... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4107383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 There is no reason why you cannot use generic SM formations that do not have non-BA chapter tactics in them in order to stay as a purist and keep your BA identity. I do have some disdain for those who are cherry picking from each codex or supplement...might as well just be unbound (except you want to cherry pick special rules too). Its just not my style of play. I think overall, the perception that cherry picking would make you more competitive might be off...if it does anything, it makes you work harder to keep a complex organization manageable (and accurate). As GW keeps moving forward with all the releases, they love the concept you are suggesting - as it means you stop being happy with your current models and start buying more (on top of all the new books, WDs, and supplements that include the new formations and new special rules). Variety is the spice of life! Overall, if you do it, do it because it makes you happier with your collection, because as your local meta sees your changes, they will adjust, and you may find what you thought was competitive is not competitive any more...and that transition can occur every 30 days... I love playing BAs. Frankly, the more I play, the more cool stuff I can try. Right now I'm toying and experimenting around just the Shield of Baal Detachment with an attached Angels' Wrath formation. Its all-BA, and so far (going to list rev2), it seems to have what I need locally for a great game. I'll probably stick with it through mid August, changing it / mutating it each week. (and besides, the Angels' Wrath is the basis for my E Tenebrae Lux pledge....) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4107410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I also think that the BA/Flesh Tearer formations and detachments were really set to stay in line with what the BAs are all about - the assault phase. Other marine chapters are all about other phases of the game, Ultras are to be strong as tacticals and mech for the shooting phase; White Scars as Bikers for the movement phase; and Iron Hands for the losing phase.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4107421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Inritz Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Do we really need to win all the time? Yeah it's not exactly a great time to be a son of the Angel. I just bought a full 2000 point army and I'm not even finished completing it and there's some issues compared to VM and DA. Which bothers me not because it's my dream to own all the Space Marines. I'll just play my Salamanders and my ridiculous amount of dreadnaughts and armor for tournies and play with my real army when I want to stomp my friends. We'll get an updated codex. Or an errata. GW wants to sell Blood Angel Models and once sales start to dip they will know our displeasure. That being said I'm eventually going to have a massive Tyranid vs Space Marine battle and I plan on having it reach 6000 points so I can use all my models. We play BA because they are awesome. Rules don't make them any less awesome. Come on, a properly outfitted 15 man Death Company can Take out a 3 model dreadnaught squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4107749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Raul Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Absolutely. There are a lot of ways in the new wave of codexes to cancel cover and flamers would be best avoided, but they still don't get an overwatch effect :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4108441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Raul Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Thanks for replying Ming! I am a purist at heart, a BA flag waver for sure. I didn't even look at the FT formations/ WLT ect when they first came out cause they weren't pure BA enough. But there's gold in those parts of the codex. I am just looking at what GW is doing and its more trying to go with the flow than cherry pick. I guess GW's fluffing of the codexes has pidgeoned holed us as an ally chapter, the guys you get for the assaults while your gun line/ bikers/ mech do their thing. I want to play BA competitively, absolutely but there is the way GW is pointing us and they way I want things and tournements are giving a lot of points to diverse armies and smaller point game formats so can't spam and our units are expensive for the redundancy theory. Angels fury spearhead formation IMO is seriously good but a big points buy in. Even the scouts rush, a massive thing from the new dex was 'nerfed' by the new C:SM and C:DA. I guess the point of the thread was to vent a bit and try to put some positivity out onto the forum and hope some would bounce back :) The 2+ idea by Charlo definitely helped! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4108457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadDice0809 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I just wish our Formations synergized more... The two main problems I have personally are that 99% of the fornations (except for the Demi Company and, inexplicably, a Flesh Tearers one) lack the Red Thirst rule. Striking before, or equal to, 90% of the foes we charge is HUGE to BA assault survivability. Most of our assaulty formations don't have it... That bonus the closest thing BA have to "Supreme Fire Discipline" or Combat Doctrines, but most of those formations lose it. And one formation that DOES- Demi Company- is filled with units you generally don't want charging in. Second is the buy in for a lot of the formations. If some of those formations just included the little modifier "0-3, 1-3" etc, they could be SO much more viable (looking at YOU Strike Force Mortalis)... also drop the *censored* Storm Raven tax (also Strike Force Mortalis)! Did they have a warehouse of this birds theu needed to sell or what? All comments regarding BA can be swapped with Flesh Tearers (even though I think their formations are much closer to the mark personally) by always including the "Explosion of Blood Lust" rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4108467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Raul Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Amen on the stormraven tax. Every. :cussing .Formation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4108472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The lack of Red Thirst on the formations (other than redundant demi company etc) is really what hammers the nail in them. You can't really argue they would've been too powerful with it either. Sure Strike Force Mortalis gets crusader and mini rampage, but against same or higher I opponents some of that is wasted - hell, at this point, considering the chapter tactics of other chapters, it should be baseline for us IMO. It used to be of course, and that was glorious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4108526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 At the points levels I'm typically playing - 1500 to 1850, its usually really good. Every infantry model is +1 S on the charge (not bad), the Sanguinary Priest (I usually only have 1) provides his attached unit with +1WS every phase), and the Baal detachment grants every unit in it +1 I on the charge (awesome). One piece of hidden cheese is that in the fluff it intones that the BAs are librarian/psychically richer than others...and the Sanguinary discipline has spells that can boost units (or models) even better - more A or I or whatever, so I always take a BA libby (level 2) to provide more boosts. In summary - the BA codex and extra sources for formations (WD, SoB, etc) mean if you play BAs, look for the ways they have provided to make the units more powerful (and resilient). I'm reminded that BAs are one of the few codexi allowing double meltaguns and more in small squad builds. All of these little changes between BAs and other marine variants are meant to dictate a certain playstyle for maximum effect. Even the BA cards for maelstrom are geared towards deep striking / jump pack / flyer / skimmer type destructive success (not bikers, not treaded mech). Ultimately if you play BAs too far outside of the jump-pack focused design structure, you begin to hamper your ability to win. As an example, in my most recent experimental lists - I have only 5-6 vehicles and 10 marines w/o jump packs....everything else jumps (or drops)...my biggest fear in most games is that my jump pack marines will get shot off the table before they can get into assault - and that fear is about the only thing keeping me from winning more games. You can read more into that at my blog (shameless plug) which is more of a diary and log of my games and painting efforts for me than something written to express some form of expertise. I don't think I've yet played a game with confidence of victory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4108829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The sanguinary discipline is plain powerful for sure, hidden gems in there deffo. I plan to always rock 2 Lib Dreads in BSF and then an allied couple of Libbys or such in the FTSF. Random one, can a Libby infiltrate with a Scout Squad? With unleash rage or something they could become a ridiculous unexpected force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4108839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMek83 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Dark Angels and Blood Angels work nicely together. And its pretty fluffy too. BA is CC orientated while DA is shooty. DA get vhiecle squadron's, BA get their own trickery, Strom Ravens, DC and Heavy Flamer Tacticals. It will cause some rather mean combo's. I just got my new DA codex today so it will take me while to see how my BA / FT can mix up with my DA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4108961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Random one, can a Libby infiltrate with a Scout Squad? With unleash rage or something they could become a ridiculous unexpected force. No, as the Librarian doesn't have the infiltrate rule, when it comes to the deployment phase, he *must* be deployed before the scouts. The exception is if they outflank, in which case they all go into reserves and join there. Best option is to CAD, and veritas Vitae for 2 rerollable rolls on the strategic warlord traits chart to get the 3 infiltrators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310176-3-topics-in-one-warning-serious-rant-with-a-few-good-points/#findComment-4108991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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