Deathwing demoted to sideshow

[palin2222]

After receiving my codex and confirming that the leaks were true, I found myself disappointed that the Deathwing were reduced to playing second fiddle to the Ravenwing. I had always thought that it should be the other way around, in both fluff and crunch. This new codex sees some interesting formations for our terminators. There is one formation where you can take up to 12 elite slots worth of Terms, Knights, and single Dreadnoughts. Not only does this formation sound cool and fun, but it also gives you the special rule that you can choose to pass or fail any reserve roll a unit in this formation make. Sweet! But then you see that this special rule is tied to one of two Ravenwing formations. No Ravenwing formation, no special rule. You don't even get the benefit of having ObjSec or full BS Grim Resolve because this formation can not be taken as a part of Lion's Blade. Im not saying that this formation is terrible or even worse than than the other Deathwing formation, but it is disappointing that our big Deathwing Toy is SO dependent on the Ravenwing that it might as well have been a mandatory take within the formation. 

 

The other formation is a little more to my liking. An HQ, 2-5 squads of Terms, an optional knights, and an optional dread. This one also suffers from the entire thing must be held in reserves, but at least it can be included in a Lion's Blade, so it has that going for it. You can also pre-assign which turn the formation comes in on. So that is cool. 

 

I dont even know what I'm complaining about anymore... The codex we got is pretty good. Greenwing got some nice buffs, Deathwing is ok, and Ravenwing seems extremely powerful. All in all a good book.  Sorry for the rant.  

[The Neverborn]

I'm not happy about the Deathwing changes.
 

I think it's worse than you've realised. Pure Deathwing has been confined to unbound, which will have to either be Land Raiders or foot slogging. Take a closer look at the rules and you'll see that if you take the DW formation you can't arrive until turn 2 and you have to deep strike, which means that you'll auto lose if you don't have something else on the table. - Sad face

 

I'm only keen on the Deathwing in any Dark Angles Dex, could maybe use a Imperial Knight but I think I'm putting my deathwing/dark angels in the attic and waiting until the next edition of the codex in a few years time.
 

Until then - remember the tale of two heads talking and keep the faith, we are the unforgiven.

[palin2222]

 

I'm not happy about the Deathwing changes.

 

I think it's worse than you've realised. Pure Deathwing has been confined to unbound, which will have to either be Land Raiders or foot slogging. Take a closer look at the rules and you'll see that if you take the DW formation you can't arrive until turn 2 and you have to deep strike, which means that you'll auto lose if you don't have something else on the table. - Sad face

 

I'm only keen on the Deathwing in any Dark Angles Dex, could maybe use a Imperial Knight but I think I'm putting my deathwing/dark angels in the attic and waiting until the next edition of the codex in a few years time.

 

Until then - remember the tale of two heads talking and keep the faith, we are the unforgiven.

In a pure deathwing list you can take a dread in a drop pod. Dont half of those arrive on first turn? Granted its not ideal in the least, and a HUGE tax to make sure you have more than 2 models on the board turn 1 but it Isn't Auto lose. Thou it is close enough that is makes no matter. 

[Stormxlr]

 

 

I'm not happy about the Deathwing changes.

 

I think it's worse than you've realised. Pure Deathwing has been confined to unbound, which will have to either be Land Raiders or foot slogging. Take a closer look at the rules and you'll see that if you take the DW formation you can't arrive until turn 2 and you have to deep strike, which means that you'll auto lose if you don't have something else on the table. - Sad face

 

I'm only keen on the Deathwing in any Dark Angles Dex, could maybe use a Imperial Knight but I think I'm putting my deathwing/dark angels in the attic and waiting until the next edition of the codex in a few years time.

 

Until then - remember the tale of two heads talking and keep the faith, we are the unforgiven.

In a pure deathwing list you can take a dread in a drop pod. Dont half of those arrive on first turn? Granted its not ideal in the least, and a HUGE tax to make sure you have more than 2 models on the board turn 1 but it Isn't Auto lose. Thou it is close enough that is makes no matter. 

 

Nope, check formation rules, it says there that if you take Drop pod Dread he must arrive together with the rest of the force and it clearly states that Drop pod assault rules to be ignored.

So pure Deathwing has been sqautted (until an errata that says they can come in on turn one *pray*).

Deathwing also lost Preffered Enemy CSM (unless taken as part of Redemption Force) and gained Hatred CSM. Which is pretty :cussty all in all.

One way i see playing is taking DW Redemption force and Unbound Dreadnoughts or Land Raiders.

 

*EDIT*

DW Strike Force Dread still can DP Assault.

[Jazzhands]

Annoyed about hatred over preferred enemy. What do chaplains do for us now?

Guess they give re rolls to unit as hatred doesn't transfer

[HsojVvad]

Blow of steam. Take a few breaths now. :) Now blow more steam off. Feel better now? Good. Get all that negativity out of you. 

 

Try a few games first and see what happens. I see it all the time. Mathammer. It bites a lot of people in the ass and makes them look foolish. Try it first and see if you have fun. If you don't have fun then you have a point and you are correct then. But to not try and after already owning and painting and putting together all the minis you bought, just seems foolish to me. You already own these minis right? So play with them and see how it turns out.

 

Way too many threads of negativity before people actually try and use it. While yes it doesn't play the same as before, but then again, what does? Editions change things. Codex revisals change things. Adapt. 

 

Don't get upset with the things you can't control. Enjoy what you can control. Unless playing in a tourney, ask your friends/group/opponent to house rules a few rules. As I said in another thread, why not ask if "you can ignore the auto loose rule on turn one." How about ignoring the rule about All units must be in reserve and Deep Strike. How about having a few units on the board or walk/drive on the board on turn one?

 

Play unbound.

 

You do have options. I don't read you stating why you can't use these options. 

 

Try first. If not having fun then you have a point. But to not even try and still complain just....(will not say no more)

[Isiah]

Slightly annoyed at the Ven Dread tax. But I would disagree that they are now a sideshow.

 

One might argue that fluffwise the fielding of pure Terminator Deathwing armies was too lax and we have just gotten used to it.

 

My issue is with what to deploy T1 that's both cheap enough and resilient enough to last to the end of that turn. With the Deathwing Strike Force I'm not convinced that the Vens would cut it.

 

The fact that the DW Strike Force does not get objsec is also a bummer.

 

I guess time will tell.

 

Cheers

I

[Elios Harg]

The real problem with why Deathwing is playing second fiddle to Raveneing has nothing to do with formations or detachments and having to deep strike or not. It's because terminators are vastly inferior to bikes. A basic DW terminator costs nearly twice as much as a basic RW biker. Is there anything a terminator gets that the bike does not that would justify them costing 15 points more?

 

If we compare them, they have similar firepower: 1-2 twin-linked bolter shots vs. 2 bolter shots that twin-link once per game. On top of this, Ravenwing actually get better upgrade options in meltaguns and grav-guns than anything Deathwing can get, they get more of them and do so for cheaper prices!

 

They have similar survivability: T4 2+/5++ vs. T5 3+/4+ re-roll. The ability and desire to stay out of short range adds to their survivability as well. Meanwhile Deathwing being primarily an assault unit, yes even "shooty" terminators are far better equipped for assault than shooting, wants to get close and therefore tends T take more AP2 or better firepower in the form of rapid-fire plasma and meltagun shots.

 

For morale: Fearless vs. ATSKNF plus stubborn seems like a wash. The complete immunity to morale is mitigated by the fact that sometimes you don't want to stay in combat. Oh and btw, hit & run means you can try to leave even if you pass your morale check and do so on your own terms.

 

Speaking of morale, next we compare assault ability: Ravenwing bikers are much better at getting there. In fact, a turn 2 assault is still a possibility for Ravenwing, but not for Deathwing. Of course, Ravenwing probably do not want to be there. At best Ravenwing get 3 powered attacks while charging (on a massively over-costed Sgt), the average biker gets a meager 2 normal s4 attacks. Deathwing on the other hand NEED to be in assault (against the right things) to excel. With 3 powerfist attacks on the charge, Deathwing Terminators are truly assault units regardless of load out. Ideally, a Deathwing terminator deep strikes, runs and shoots his twin-linked shots(thank you new formation rules), survives the weathering fire for a turn, then shoots two units with split fire and charges one of them. Hopefully, he'll stay locked into the opponent's turn and after finishing them off in their turn, be able T shoot and charge another unit.

 

Finally, we compare their mobility: Scout or outflank, 12" movement plus the ability to turbo-boost vs arriving via deep strike and then 6" movement plus run. This one isn't even a contest. The focus on mobility in maelstrom missions makes mobility king (not that it has ever needed help in that regard).

 

So, considering the vast mobility and the close combat ability likely cancel each other out. We come to realize that Deathwing Terminators only get... Hatred (Chaos Space Marines) for their extra points! Glad to see that rule is worth 15 points.

 

Honestly, if basic terminators were about 25 points each, Deathwing about 30, with DW knights being 35 and Thunder Hammer & storm sheild costing 10, they'd be much closer to bikes in potential. If on top of that they improved storm bolters to salvo 2/3 instead of assault 2, they'd be a fantastic unit on par with any other elite unit in the game. Lightning claw terminators would still suck, but I'm not sure how to fix that other than making them the cheapest variant (20 for vanilla with their assault terminators paying 15 for TH/SS upgrades and 25 for us and paying 5 points for the upgrade salvo storm bolters and 15 for TH/SS. So in the end, lightning claws = 20 for space marine terminators and 25 for DW terminators, fist/sword plus stormbolter = 25 or 30, respectively, hammer and shield = 35 or 40, respectively.

 

At that point, terminators would be appropriately costed. The alternative is to make them far more survivable and provide them greater firepower.

 

Until one of these happens, Deathwing will never truly be worth taking.

[xnickbaranx]

One might argue that fluffwise the fielding of pure Terminator Deathwing armies was too lax and we have just gotten used to it.

 

I think this is an important realization and one at the root of the "Dark Angels conundrum". Isiah is spot on.

 

 

I'm a Greenwing player who's been playing since 2nd Edition. Other than maybe the 3.5 DA Codex, I've long felt like a disadvantaged C:SM player. Additionally, the idea that Dark Angels and Deathwing were synonymous felt wrong.

 

Storm of Vengeance, the 2nd Edition Campaign pack, revolved around Dark Angels Space Marines, supported by the unique talents and equipment of the 1st, 2nd, and 10th companies. Yes, the Deathwing and the Ravenwing were crucial parts of the story, but the bulk of the fighting was the main battle company.

 

One of the things that Purging of Kadillus tried to capture while novelizing Storm of Vengeance, and was thus attempted by Jeremy Vetock in the 6th Ed Codex, was the attempt to demonstrate the synergy of how the various Dark Angels companies work together. When you read Purging of Kadillus, it really emphasizes that this is the strength of the Dark Angels, which echoes back to the idea that Lion El'Johson is this brilliant tactician who uses everything at his disposal.

 

This new Deathwing formation that has a Ravenwing rule is trying to guide us all in that very same direction. In fact many of the things we lost in this Codex shows that they are still trying to guide us to the true spirit of the Dark Angels, the relentless stubbornness and the tactical brilliance, which has nothing to do with power field generators or dakka banners that stymie our advance. The greatest glory of the Dark Angels is supposed to be in the multi-wing approach, and Unbound exists for all of those who say, "GW... Don't tell me what to do!"

[HsojVvad]

 

Until one of these happens, Deathwing will never truly be worth taking.

 

I find it funny, even with the 6th edition Dark Angels codex, a lot of complaints/whining was going on on how under powered Terminators and other Dark Angel units are. This forum, the Bolter and Chainsword Dark Angel Forum has proven time and time again, they are very viable and a lot of our members do very well with lacklustre Terminators and other Dark Angel units. Now the same thing is going on now. 

 

As some of our members do, instead of math or theoryhammer they actually try it and do very well with them. 

 

So I believe Deathwing will be truly worth taking. Why? Since I don't play, I can't prove it, but I am sure other members on our beloved forum will prove it and say they do excellent with them just like how they did excellent with the 6th edition Dark Angel codex. 

 

 

Another thing, a lot of people don't need to win with plastic toy soldiers or man dollies so Deathwing will be truly worth taking.

 

 

 

Can Terminators not be worth taking? Yes they may not. Thing is so far, nothing has been proven. Nothing has been proven with FACTS, just OPINIONS. Opinions don't prove anything. 

[Elios Harg]

I've played mostly pure Deathwing as a tournament player for over 10 years and have played Dark Angels, in general, for nearly 20. I have won many small tournaments with them over the years and have placed in the top 10 in some very large tournaments with them. I am quite confident that I speak from experience when I "whine" about terminators being underpowered.

 

Yes, an excellent player can win with them. However, it is far easier to win without them.

[The Neverborn]

Pinch me if you think I'm stating the obvious, or talking rubbish but I think the changes to Deathwing is to get DA players to buy new models.

 

Rewind 2 dexs and the Ravenwing were all but inferior to bike companies in the SM codex as were the standard Standard Dark Angles. So what happens every DA player becomes a Deathwing player – as soon as the FAQ for storm shields comes out, otherwise why even use the DA Dex? S/He buys 25 Termies with storm shields sticks a Cyclone in each squad and a couple of Dakka preds - Job done. GW has slowly been brining this competitive disparity into balance over they last 2 Dex. If the codex stays unchanged they can't sell and new models and make less money, which every company needs to make, including all the ones we work for/self employed by.

 

I've noticed GW increasingly using this tactic and I don't get AS upset by it anymore, you just have to acknowledge it is always going to happen and what works will change as GW tries to push it's new or underselling box-sets. GW doesn't want us to be using the same armies in 2015 we were using in 2005.

 

But good news as DW has been rained in quite a bit they are likely to be lethal in the next edition after they've sold boat loads of Ravenwing and Deathwing Terminators Box sets aren't selling. Most of us probably have more than one army - personally I have a large Eldar army which is mostly jet bikes -happy days 40 scatter lasers please …. so I'll be exclusively using that in this 'cycle' as I exclusively used Deathwing when they were at their peak a few years ago and I didn't like the then Eldar Avatar/Ulthran dex.

 

 

It's unbound, another dex or a non “pure-deathwing” army for now - But their return is inevitable and their demise was predictable.

[Stormxlr]

 

Pinch me if you think I'm stating the obvious, or talking rubbish but I think the changes to Deathwing is to get DA players to buy new models.

 

Rewind 2 dexs and the Ravenwing were all but inferior to bike companies in the SM codex as were the standard Standard Dark Angles. So what happens every DA player becomes a Deathwing player – as soon as the FAQ for storm shields comes out, otherwise why even use the DA Dex? S/He buys 25 Termies with storm shields sticks a Cyclone in each squad and a couple of Dakka preds - Job done. GW has slowly been brining this competitive disparity into balance over they last 2 Dex. If the codex stays unchanged they can't sell and new models and make less money, which every company needs to make, including all the ones we work for/self employed by.

 

I've noticed GW increasingly using this tactic and I don't get AS upset by it anymore, you just have to acknowledge it is always going to happen and what works will change as GW tries to push it's new or underselling box-sets. GW doesn't want us to be using the same armies in 2015 we were using in 2005.

 

But good news as DW has been rained in quite a bit they are likely to be lethal in the next edition after they've sold boat loads of Ravenwing and Deathwing Terminators Box sets aren't selling. Most of us probably have more than one army - personally I have a large Eldar army which is mostly jet bikes -happy days 40 scatter lasers please …. so I'll be exclusively using that in this 'cycle' as I exclusively used Deathwing when they were at their peak a few years ago and I didn't like the then Eldar Avatar/Ulthran dex.

 

 

It's unbound, another dex or a non “pure-deathwing” army for now - But their return is inevitable and their demise was predictable.

 

Well that what those formations are for, to sell more models so you can get a "competitive edge" by providing a few rules here and there. It really is that simple, to make a unit better all they need to do is write no more than 10 words, but you have to buy more models. Better rules are incentive.

Whirlwinds

Take 3 and you get;

Shred

Pinning

BOOM Whirlswinds are that much better. No reason or explanation why they are better if you take 3, what about if i take 2, or 4 or 5 or 10? why dont I get D apoc barrage Vindicators if i buy 9 of them? Oh well i guess thats will be in the next edition.

 

Biggest rip of is Battle Company free vehicles. Who doesnt want free vehicles for biggest player base in the meta? To get them you just need to buy 6 Tacs,2 AS,2 Devs oh and the vehicles themselves of course. Its a giant money grab, an obnoxious one at that, actually simply ridiculous. Not only is it game breaking its just a cheap way to swindle money from people.

[The Neverborn]

Sorry if this is going off topic, but I feel that these money grabs along with price hikes mean I've just been sticking to what i've already go and waiting around for a while for what i've got to get better i'd encoruage everyone to do the same.

Those whirlwinds will be bunk in the next dex but hey buy 6 Vindicators and they get a 48" range. at the princley cost of £48 per box in 2018

This is why more and more people are buying their 40k on ebay .

[Lucien Eilam]

Isn't there a topic somewhere to keep all the price whinging in one place, rather than stinking up the whole forum?

 

Like the last one, the codex is focused on the hunt for the Fallen. That's what really defines the Dark Angels and makes them different from other Chapters. And the way the hunt works is, the Ravenwing track them down, and then they call in the Deathwing to capture them.

 

Pure Deathwing happens sometimes, sure, but it's not the iconic Dark Angel way of fighting a war. Thanks to Unbound there's nothing to stop you doing it even if the Turn 1 issues aren't resolved, but the special rules reflect the Ravenwing and Deathwing working in tandem like the background describes.

[Elios Harg]

Even without unbound, you *can* field Deathwing without the turn 1 issues being resolved.

[Lucien Eilam]

You can field it, but I'm pretty sure their intention wasn't that you have to try to get through turn one with only one or two Dreadpods.

[Elios Harg]

Maybe it was. Otherwise they would have amended the drop pod rules as they did with the redemption force. More likely, they don't actually play in the studio with the "No units on the table = auto lose" rule. Therefore, it never occurred to them that Deathwing automatically loses if you do not include dreads in pods.

[Stormxlr]

Maybe it was. Otherwise they would have amended the drop pod rules as they did with the redemption force. More likely, they don't actually play in the studio with the "No units on the table = auto lose" rule. Therefore, it never occurred to them that Deathwing automatically loses if you do not include dreads in pods.

In that logic its kinda sad actually that the rule design team doesnt know their own rules. Especially those who play DA should know of DS restrictions. but this is all a mere speculation.

[Elios Harg]

Well, it's obvious they either don't follow the rules exactly during playtests or do not playtest thoroughly as a thorough playtest of the entire process from building a list to play would have caught the issues with the Deathwing detachments and the Ravenwing detachment had they strictly adhered to the rules while doing so.

[Xenith]

To be honest, I had forgotten that dark angels were green. 

 

I thought they were all bone coloured.

 

 

Maybe it was. Otherwise they would have amended the drop pod rules as they did with the redemption force. More likely, they don't actually play in the studio with the "No units on the table = auto lose" rule. Therefore, it never occurred to them that Deathwing automatically loses if you do not include dreads in pods.

 

No. Legion of the damned are all DS all the time, and can be fielded as a primary. They are an auto lose army unless you include allies.

 

 

Which is fluffy, as they are supposed to show up and aid an overwhelmed foe.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

 

 

Pinch me if you think I'm stating the obvious, or talking rubbish but I think the changes to Deathwing is to get DA players to buy new models.

 

Rewind 2 dexs and the Ravenwing were all but inferior to bike companies in the SM codex as were the standard Standard Dark Angles. So what happens every DA player becomes a Deathwing player – as soon as the FAQ for storm shields comes out, otherwise why even use the DA Dex? S/He buys 25 Termies with storm shields sticks a Cyclone in each squad and a couple of Dakka preds - Job done. GW has slowly been brining this competitive disparity into balance over they last 2 Dex. If the codex stays unchanged they can't sell and new models and make less money, which every company needs to make, including all the ones we work for/self employed by.

 

I've noticed GW increasingly using this tactic and I don't get AS upset by it anymore, you just have to acknowledge it is always going to happen and what works will change as GW tries to push it's new or underselling box-sets. GW doesn't want us to be using the same armies in 2015 we were using in 2005.

 

But good news as DW has been rained in quite a bit they are likely to be lethal in the next edition after they've sold boat loads of Ravenwing and Deathwing Terminators Box sets aren't selling. Most of us probably have more than one army - personally I have a large Eldar army which is mostly jet bikes -happy days 40 scatter lasers please …. so I'll be exclusively using that in this 'cycle' as I exclusively used Deathwing when they were at their peak a few years ago and I didn't like the then Eldar Avatar/Ulthran dex.

 

 

It's unbound, another dex or a non “pure-deathwing” army for now - But their return is inevitable and their demise was predictable.

 

Well that what those formations are for, to sell more models so you can get a "competitive edge" by providing a few rules here and there. It really is that simple, to make a unit better all they need to do is write no more than 10 words, but you have to buy more models. Better rules are incentive.

Whirlwinds

Take 3 and you get;

Shred

Pinning

BOOM Whirlswinds are that much better. No reason or explanation why they are better if you take 3, what about if i take 2, or 4 or 5 or 10? why dont I get D apoc barrage Vindicators if i buy 9 of them? Oh well i guess thats will be in the next edition.

 

Biggest rip of is Battle Company free vehicles. Who doesnt want free vehicles for biggest player base in the meta? To get them you just need to buy 6 Tacs,2 AS,2 Devs oh and the vehicles themselves of course. Its a giant money grab, an obnoxious one at that, actually simply ridiculous. Not only is it game breaking its just a cheap way to swindle money from people.

 

 

For myself, I have been collecting a full Battle Company for a while, including vehicles. The fact is, many people love the idea of collecting a full Battle Company, its just impractical outside Apoc to field it. Now...well...now it is much more practical.

 

It might look like a cash grab, and it might even be one, but in all honesty, there are a lot of people who would have built 100 Marines regardless because of the idea of a full company is inspiring. I like the fact I can take free Rhino's as part of that in order to increase the ascetic of a full, Mechanised Infantry company.

 

Basically, I like the formations. I don't think DW are lost, it just requires changes in strategy and some thinking about how to use them properly or effectively now.

[Davidson]

Hard to belive they would mess up Deathwing... Maybe they'll release a Dataslate so we can pay for a fix?

[xnickbaranx]

 

 

 

Biggest rip of is Battle Company free vehicles. Who doesnt want free vehicles for biggest player base in the meta? To get them you just need to buy 6 Tacs,2 AS,2 Devs oh and the vehicles themselves of course. Its a giant money grab, an obnoxious one at that, actually simply ridiculous. Not only is it game breaking its just a cheap way to swindle money from people.

 

 

It's not much of swindle. As a 20 year Dark Angel player I already own all of the models I need to field two Demi-Companies and trick them out with a variety of formations. I wouldn't mind having another 2 Nephilim/Dark Talon's to field the Ravenwing Silence Squadron, or maybe a 2nd Dark Shroud. Those two kits are the only ones I don't have multiples of because they weren't good enough to justify more than one of each when they came out.

 

Seriously, if GW is trying to "swindle" long time vets they need to try harder. Instead I feel rewarded for years of patronage despite my army kind of sucking rather than feeling swindled. Haha.

[PariahMessiah]

Well if I didnt have enough reasons to clear my table of Deathwing during 6th edition, I definitely have a reason now. I've always ran a greenwing CAD with RW support so to me 7th edition is 100% the death of my DW. Not a huge deal to me, as I've only ran strictly DW once, and was tabled by turn 3. So whatevs, no big loss. I do much better with Greenwing with tanks and RW support. Terminators as a whole are just outclassed, expensive, and near worthless to me now. Hopefully I'll get enough money from my 3x5 man squads, Belial and DW Knights to really get some good RW models and maybe a nice battlemat.