So anti air....

[Corrupted]

First off let me state that I play in a very 'conservative' gaming group, FW is shunned and their just starting to come around on formations and detachments other than CAD (and it doesn't help when GW releases things like Sky Hammer Annihilation Force). So I can't just throw down some mortis patterns and go about my business, or use some SM storm talons. 

 

So within the confines of our codex how are people dealing with enemy flyers? I've been play testing against SM's, eldar, and chaos, and heldrakes are messing my army up, I've had some luck downing flyers with plasma talons, but I'm finding it less than ideal. I can't bring myself to field a nephilim, mostly because I can't bring myself to buy a nephilim...

 

So.... ADL? Scouts are way better now maybe some scouts packing Flakk Missiles? Twin auto cannon dreads, did that last edition but I also fielded a lot more DW so drakes weren't a huge concern.

[twopounder]

Nephalim is reasonable at anti-air now vs most non-marine flyer. Dev squad with flakk missiles. Not great, but again is reasonable vs non-marine flyers. RWSS with 10x heavy bolters or 5x hb and 5x assault cannons. They throw out enough firepower that, even snapfiring, are likely to score a handful of hits.

 

As far is taking down armor 12 flyers, that's a bit tougher. Hitting, penetrating, and getting through jink tends to be much more difficult, as the weapons that do so rarely get more than 2 shots. You can ally in space marine AA vehicles. Devastators with grav cannons might work if you give them prescience. 3x dreadnoughts with twin-linked autocannons are a decent bet, though costly. On the upside, you can make them part of a lion's blade for full BS, twin-linked overwatch so they can dual purpose as good fire support platforms.

 

Aside from that, not much else. Standard anti-armor rounds are always going to be tough to hit with.

[MagicHat]

Firestorm Redoubt with an additional Quad-cannon.

It is... very hit and miss for me though.

[twopounder]

Firestorm Redoubt with an additional Quad-cannon.

It is... very hit and miss for me though.

 

He said in the codex. As that is not in the codex, I don't think it would be too useful.

[Corrupted]

Nephalim is reasonable at anti-air now vs most non-marine flyer. Dev squad with flakk missiles. Not great, but again is reasonable vs non-marine flyers. RWSS with 10x heavy bolters or 5x hb and 5x assault cannons. They throw out enough firepower that, even snapfiring, are likely to score a handful of hits.

 

As far is taking down armor 12 flyers, that's a bit tougher. Hitting, penetrating, and getting through jink tends to be much more difficult, as the weapons that do so rarely get more than 2 shots. You can ally in space marine AA vehicles. Devastators with grav cannons might work if you give them prescience. 3x dreadnoughts with twin-linked autocannons are a decent bet, though costly. On the upside, you can make them part of a lion's blade for full BS, twin-linked overwatch so they can dual purpose as good fire support platforms.

 

Aside from that, not much else. Standard anti-armor rounds are always going to be tough to hit with.

Ya AV 12 is my big problem... Heldrakes specifically, it just kills me to think about monetary and point costs of a nephilim, just for the TL las cannon.

 

Firestorm Redoubt with an additional Quad-cannon.

It is... very hit and miss for me though.

And my group would roll their eyes at me if I dropped one on the table.

[Crazy Jay]

But he does mention ADL so he must be open to fortifications.

[Crazy Jay]

ADL with an Icarus Lascannon manned by a Vindicare assassin. No jinking, good chance to punch through and if you use interceptor, you can just focus on ground targets next turn.

[Corrupted]

The ADL is a bit more ingrained, as it originally came out in the core rule book. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

My suggestion is min squad of flakk missile devs (because more shots than scouts) with a Quad gun ADL. It's a chunk of points but it all has skyfire and that's the best I can think of. 

 

The Nephilim isn't bad, it got 10 points cheaper, and got strafing run back and a couple more rules, but it's far from an auto include for what it does (It should be 30-50 points cheaper, with the TLLC upgrading the TLHB, but it isn't...), unfortunately the best counter air is your own air, which the nephilim can do pretty well (and if I'm not mistaken this ability got better) It twin-links its one shot missiles which is great (almost guaranteeing a hit) and it can treat all weapon destroyed results as immobilized (which is hell against fliers). So aside from the actual price of the kit, the Nephilim is your best bet, or the previously mentioned flakk devs.

 

/edit/

 

I'd also recommend that your gaming group get used to the idea of allies, new detachments, and formations. They're here, they're staying, and the new armies are forcing the issue. Seems like you're open to the idea, they just need to adapt or get left behind. 

 

I could see if you're doing a campaign or a tournament, restricting forces to a CAD, but not for casual play, That's interfering with your enjoyment of the hobby.

[Corrupted]

My suggestion is min squad of flakk missile devs (because more shots than scouts) with a Quad gun ADL. It's a chunk of points but it all has skyfire and that's the best I can think of. 

 

The Nephilim isn't bad, it got 10 points cheaper, and got strafing run back and a couple more rules, but it's far from an auto include for what it does (It should be 30-50 points cheaper, with the TLLC upgrading the TLHB, but it isn't...), unfortunately the best counter air is your own air, which the nephilim can do pretty well (and if I'm not mistaken this ability got better) It twin-links its one shot missiles which is great (almost guaranteeing a hit) and it can treat all weapon destroyed results as immobilized (which is hell against fliers). So aside from the actual price of the kit, the Nephilim is your best bet, or the previously mentioned flakk devs.

Ya, that's pretty much the conclusion I came to as well.

[Pbenner]

Man,

 

Your gaming group needs to get with the program.  FW is the answer that GW gave the game for the niche pieces we may not be able to field ourselves.  

 

A pair of Mortis Dreadnoughts would fix all your problems, they're not cheesy, and decent overall.  (Las preferred)  

 

Paul

[twopounder]

Man,

 

Your gaming group needs to get with the program.  FW is the answer that GW gave the game for the niche pieces we may not be able to field ourselves.  

 

A pair of Mortis Dreadnoughts would fix all your problems, they're not cheesy, and decent overall.  (Las preferred)  

 

Paul

 

A lot of people simply won't accept that forge world is a legitimate branch of Games Workshop. Numerous people in these forums still claim it's a different company and not directly associated. I know it took a while for my friend and I to accept it, since we started before forge world and nobody ever really used it around here, or even asked to. The rules aren't entirely balanced, and some of the vehicles are over the top. To make matters worse, they don't update very well with new additions of 40k, so you run into broken rules more frequently.

 

I can understand the group not wanting forge world to have a presence.

[IanSturrock]

The speeder formation looks OK for anti-air. No skyfire, but it does have interceptor, and some decent volume of fire (five speeders with Typhoons is getting 10 shots off, a couple of which should hit, or maybe 3-4 if you can prescience it on the correct turn).

I like black knights / ravenwing command for anti-air once it's come in -- they can usually get at least side shots.

[Elios Harg]

"The rules aren't entirely balanced"

 

So it fits right in with mainstream 40k.

 

The only legitimately rational reason for not allowing Forge World units is the one I've heard from a FLGS. That Games-Workshop does not give them the option to sell Forgeworld, therefore, they do not want to promote Forgeworld in any fashion.

[Corrupted]

The speeder formation looks OK for anti-air. No skyfire, but it does have interceptor, and some decent volume of fire (five speeders with Typhoons is getting 10 shots off, a couple of which should hit, or maybe 3-4 if you can prescience it on the correct turn).

 

I like black knights / ravenwing command for anti-air once it's come in -- they can usually get at least side shots.

Cool I didn't notice that about the speeder formation.

 

I was using black knights as AA for a while. I've been finding myself in games where my opponent is playing two drakes and I'm using 3x 6 man units of BKs, when the drakes come on they make a beeline for my knights then my remaining knights make a beeline for the drakes.... In the end the drakes are better at killing knights than knights are at killing drakes and he ends up tying up too much of my army for too long. 

[Elios Harg]

 

 

The speeder formation looks OK for anti-air. No skyfire, but it does have interceptor, and some decent volume of fire (five speeders with Typhoons is getting 10 shots off, a couple of which should hit, or maybe 3-4 if you can prescience it on the correct turn).

 

I like black knights / ravenwing command for anti-air once it's come in -- they can usually get at least side shots.

Cool I didn't notice that about the speeder formation.

 

I was using black knights as AA for a while. I've been finding myself in games where my opponent is playing two drakes and I'm using 3x 6 man units of BKs, when the drakes come on they make a beeline for my knights then my remaining knights make a beeline for the drakes.... In the end the drakes are better at killing knights than knights are at killing drakes and he ends up tying up too much of my army for too long.

Also, if you have a vengeance in the support squadron you can use the plasma storm for AA along with the typhoons.

[Corrupted]

The big opposition to FW in my group is its seen as a crutch. This is particularly pointed and annoying with a unit like the mortis dread because it's not over powered and fills a huge gap in our codex. So at the end of a game you're left with the unsaid, 'you only won because you used a FW unit....' 

[Corrupted]

 

 

The speeder formation looks OK for anti-air. No skyfire, but it does have interceptor, and some decent volume of fire (five speeders with Typhoons is getting 10 shots off, a couple of which should hit, or maybe 3-4 if you can prescience it on the correct turn).

 

I like black knights / ravenwing command for anti-air once it's come in -- they can usually get at least side shots.

Cool I didn't notice that about the speeder formation.

 

I was using black knights as AA for a while. I've been finding myself in games where my opponent is playing two drakes and I'm using 3x 6 man units of BKs, when the drakes come on they make a beeline for my knights then my remaining knights make a beeline for the drakes.... In the end the drakes are better at killing knights than knights are at killing drakes and he ends up tying up too much of my army for too long.

Also, if you have a vengeance in the support squadron you can use the plasma storm for AA along with the typhoons.

 

Just as an aside, why the hell isn't the plasma storm battery twin-linked?!? A large portion of my gaming group has suggested the vengeance for AA assuming it was twin-linked because, well, look at the damn thing!

[march10k]

~shrug~  The nephilim isn't bad against AV12 fliers...three missiles a turn, probably three hits with the rerolls, statistically, that's a hull point, which is a really big deal to a flier.  Add in the avenger mega bolter, and you might strip another hull point.  That's a lot better than anything on the ground would do for the same points.  If you want something that downs a flier in a single burst of shooting 90% of the time, I'm afraid we don't have that...good news is, neither does anyone else...except tau and maybe IG (three hydras would probably do it...)

[Ishagu]

Aegis defence Line, a few Nephelims...

 

Are Heldrakes such a big issue to you? Is your army mainly Ravenwing?

Heldrakes haven't been a problem to me for a while...

 

On that topic, being in a conservative gaming group can be a disappointment - Forgeworld has some fluffy units that don't break the game, but they can help to plug a hole in your list...

 

If your opponent is abusing a weakness in your army time and again, and yet doesn't allow you to make full use of 7th edition rules - that's just bad sportsmanship!

[Stormxlr]

To answer your question your only choice within DA codex is/are Nephelim Jetfighters.

 

Now to address a more serious issue.

Im sorry to hear that your group is still playing 4th edition 40k might as well actually use 4th or even 3edition rule book too.

 

In my humble opinion rule of cool trumps all in 40k and honestly thats pretty much how it works generally. Detachments and Formations are literally in every codex, and if it takes your group longer than a month to adapt, there is an inherent problem with your group it self.

How do you guys field titans or play Apoc without FW? No 30k either? How about all those amazing FW models? no proxying too?

Mortis Dreadnoughts are an integral part of DA fluff for quite a while now.

40k is no way balanced and maybe 10 years ago FW was completely bonkers for some hard core rule nuts. Now its a common thing and people should be more interested in playing against something you dont see everyday. I would really like to for example to face a proper Eldar Corsair Army or Deff Dread list.

They definitely have funner rules.

Like Siege dreadnought for example has a siege drill and if it scores penetrating hit in melee he can flame the unit inside with his heavy flamer. Thats just freaking cool.

If FLGS doesnt let you play what you want, games you want or models you want its a bad FLGS and its just bad for their business to tell customers what not to do with their own money.

 

Also what @Ishagu said right above me

"If your opponent is abusing a weakness in your army time and again, and yet doesn't allow you to make full use of 7th edition rules - that's just bad sportsmanship!"

[Elios Harg]

Now that the Nephilim has twin-linked S7 missiles, it's not a bad air superiority fighter. It is an absolute terror against AV10-11, has strafing run and is going to be difficult to destroy thanks to Ravenwing and 3 hp. Oh, and if you put it in a RWSF detachment that goes into reserve, not only does it automatically arrive turn 2, but you can jink against intercepting fire then use the Speed of the Raven rule to flat out and make it so that you don't have to snap fire the following turn.

[shabbadoo]

On that topic, being in a conservative gaming group can be a disappointment ...

...especially when they are so...conservative...they field TWO Helldrakes. So, he should field all Deathwing and render the AP 3 baleflamer all but worthless, if he wants to be...conservative... that is. Otherwise, as already mentioned, the Nephilim or the RW Support Squadron with a Vengeance and Typhoons are good choices. If you have an extra Heavy Suppoort slot, the minimal sized Dev squad with flakk is okay, but is only 5 points less than a Nephlim with twin-lascannon which I would prefer to take instead.

[MagicHat]

 

Firestorm Redoubt with an additional Quad-cannon.

It is... very hit and miss for me though.

And my group would roll their eyes at me if I dropped one on the table.

 

 

Why? Serious question here, I have fielded it with an inbuilt void shield generator and while some opponents thought it was overpowered at first, not one have maintained that view after actually playing against it. Among the glorious achievements is failing to do more then force a few jinks, spend games being an overpriced bunker for my devastators, doing nothing, kill a few FW/drones and in one noticeable game actually downing a Storm Talon in one round. Good job, you handsome 275 point death-machine, good job...

 

It is even in the same rulebook as the ADL now after all.

[Lysere]

I can understand the no forgeworld to some degree, almost. Not allowing you to use any fortification or formation you have access to considering that they are all an integral part of 40k now is not acceptable. Not when someone is running a Heldrake or two.