aura_enchanted Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 The only options I could think of not mentioned above is the codex marines new formations for stalkers and a hunter, and then there's the new imperial knight who can mount a flakk gun on his back. Beyond that and ideas mentioned above you've basically got throwing stones and yelling harsh words. Well that's not entirely true, there is the and raider excelsior which is NOT forgeworld. That is simply limited access normal 40k. And if you can get your hands on it you get the power to just designate whoever as having skyfire that turn, I'd probably go with a dreadnaught with double autocannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Forgot to mention this but Heldrakes lost the weapons count as turret part in the faq last I saw, so get your bikes right behind them and they cant get you very well unless they want to drop down, at which point every weapon you have can take it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Jiraco Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 If you do the maths, the new triple Pred and Raider formation have enough Lascannon shots (5 of which twin-linked) to hit a flyer on a bad day. With tank hunter, hitting is all you need to worry about. It's all I'm going to be relying on in an 1850 list. Honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynolds Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Just to give this out here & to help a chum in need:- Our local game store has its own set of "strict policies" for its people who want to play in tournaments, and so *did* our local game group. ***- The NOVA Open 40k Grand Tournament is this year for the first time(2015) accepting Forge World miniatures & expanded rules, if you have the rulebooks there to back things up with. - The NOVA is something that a lot of people compare to on the level of "what is fair & what is uneven", hence their strict policy towards FW through all these years. But if NOVA changed its policy towards FW, then so should your local gaming group. The first local Scandinavian tournaments I'm attending are doing the same as well: They are accepting Forge World assets in to tournaments, and agreeing that they are not "overpowering" 1:1 ratio. Different? Yes, not not overpowered by a stretch. - Henceforth... playing in a surrounding that disdains unpainted armies to great length & disallows if you have only "basecoat, two colors & a shade" as your army paintjob(disqualified in a local tournament if not 100% painted & based; that's my life here). I think it's time for you to put your foot down. The Vanillas didn't get the Rifleman Dreadnought, we did. Forge World has the Mortis Dreadnought with the Rifleman setup. The Dark Angels invented the Mortis. Guess who is going to put their feet down in the coming 40k tournaments of this year? Preach it, brother. Let the word be spread... Forge World is staying and even one of the largest Tournaments in North America is allowing it. So should they. - I turned the opinions of my local gaming group of over 10 years of bashing the FW kits/being overpowered/better. I intend to turn around that local game store & its owners before a coming tournament, will you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarFromSam Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Surrender air superiority. Flood the board with ob sec models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 The problem I have with drakes is their opening volley, yes they lost 360 degree fire arc but a torrent flamer coming on the board is so damn good at roasting way too many points of black knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Sticking strictly inside the codex, the Nephy, Flakk devs, and ADL are your only real options. What other Factions do the regulars play? Are their codecies still restricted to CADs? If that's the case, it seems that they're not conservative, they're just bad players trying to hold on to whatever advantage they have, rather than adjusting their tactics to deal with new challenges. How tactically challenging are their armies to play against? If you removed the turkeys, how hard would it be for you to overcome their list? I've played lists filled with forgeworld rules (proxying of course, I don't have that much money), and been steamrolled by basic CAD armies. I've played forgeworld lists (Elysians are my current favorite) that hit so hard that my opponent can't recover. It may be a case that you need to adjust your tactical thinking (which I'm thinking isn't going to be hard for you, since you raised this complaint about your group). My last meta didn't disallow the use of forgeworld, it wasn't used much since there was no good way to get it, most of the "Forge World" stuff you saw had been converted from GW product, and it was one of the things that was accepted for 3rd party models (GW store manager considered FW a third party manufacturer for purposes of the 50% GW product rule). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 OK 2 problems with Drakes 1 No save 2 How to Skyfire First off make sure they can't Vector Strike as well as flaming your pants off Second get yourself a save, Dude out front that has a 2+ save (Techmarine on Bike) or the cruddy way of dealing with it scouting your Black Knights and Dropping AZ & ZEK in a pod to join them 1st turn. The Space Marine way - Company Mater out front with Jump pack storm shield artificer armor & storm shield Insist on using Mysterious Objectives for the Skyfire Nexus In your dev squads only have min 5 man with 2 heavy weapons put them in a Rhino and Grav Cannons will clear the sky at super quick speed because of the immobilized result. The way immobilized works in 7th is they take a grounding check (1 in 3 chance of crashing) then they have to move 18 in a straight line, demon forge allows to ignore crew stunned it doesn't get to ignore immobilized, then park a Rhino right were its supposed to go as the rule is it must travel 18 if it can't (minimum speed for zooming flyers) its destroyed. Take attack Bikes as singles and combat squad everything (not played kill points for a few years now) Once you start making them crash and burn all over the shop your opponent will stop abusing them and only fetch the odd 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 Like I mentioned they're just starting to come around, now that 7th is here, on formations and alternate detachments. So I don't feel limited to CAD, but there's not that much variation in the codex, I mean I could use RWSS and chuck in some formations. But nothing's really jumping out at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 By the way non of my methods include ADL or Flak - Flak is the biggest waste of points I've ever come across The only reason for taking an ADL is the other gear you can get such as the Las Cannon + Tank Traps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeamonQC Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I dont think 2 Gravcannon in a Dev Squad is a good AA option. That's 10 shots which will average slightly under 2 hits per turn and then you still need 6's to do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 You can run a full squad and stick Azreal with them as well as giving them prescience from a Librarian Also don't forget the Skyfire Nexus The Grav Cannons Have Grav - Amps built in so 20 shots re-rolled is about 6/7 then re-rolled to immobilize, you only need the 1 + a Rhino within 18" of its 18" trajectory to get it to crash & burn + Immobilized x 2 causes 3 hull points anyways. By the way our new psychic table has a malediction which nerfs them firing their template (Aversion) its a Malediction so your able to target flyers with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Get yourself some allies and some FW goodies like the Deredeo :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJD Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 A blanket no forge world rule is very frustrating. maybe if they specified a few models they feel are over the top that might work . Outright banning all is like saying no one can play eldar because wraith knights are cheesey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Exactly, I'd fight the status quo. Your gaming group will come around eventually. It's not nice to be told how you can't bolster your Army yet be subjected to lists that abuse your weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzhands Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Re support squad puts out enough firepower to bring down most flyers. Failing that bring an imperial knight. Skyfire turret is good but so is the gatling cannon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Re support squad puts out enough firepower to bring down most flyers. Failing that bring an imperial knight. Skyfire turret is good but so is the gatling cannon Not ideal at all, 6 to hit, 6 to do any damage. If you actually want to bring them down you'll need dedicated, effective AA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Personally I'm not a huge fan of the DA flyer formation. Yes, Baledrakes have always been a bane of my Ravenwing... that being said, the day they changed the firing arch of them was a big day for my RW. When I'm playing against someone using a B.Drake I am going full out usually (it's Chaos) and getting underneath them. Now that the Dakka banner is gone, that was my number one reason for using a Dark Talon. (I realize it's better now.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas_Gardiner Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Sucks that you can't go FW, since that's the main source of my AA (Mortis Dreads!). They can't be used in a Lion's Blade detachment, but you can still put them in an allied detachment with a Libby and a Scout Squad. If you wanna go Lion's Blade though, Nephs aren't actually too bad any more! Not as good as other flyers (My Dark Eldar's flyers come to mind) but they get the job done. And the flyer formation ain't too bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 No ForgeWorld is quite common in gaming groups coz people don't want to get into an arms race where the deeper pocketed player will walk over everyone else with an OP unit such as a Baneblade with a S10 Ignores cover shell or a Brass Scorpion etc.. Generally when were playing Apoc games I don't bother with the bikes at all they just get wiped out by the handful l just take as much as I can with an invulnerable save so you at least get to role something. If your creative enough there are ways round the lack of anti air and personally I don't mind keeping my Mortis dreads under wraps for the bigger point games Stormwing Formation from SM codex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 These gaming groups are clinging onto old editions of the game. If Forgeworld - a legitimate part of the Games Workshop brand, says something is ok - who are these players that question it? I was against FW myself a few years ago, but the truth is that some regular GW armies and unit combinations are now more broken and op than anything FW provide. For 330 points, you can bring an allied detachment : -Sgt Telion -5 Scouts -3 Stalkers The 3 Stalkers will give you 9 ignore cover, str7 shots you can use to intercept BOTH Heldrakes at the same time. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormxlr Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Everyone is mentioning allies and FW. OP stated that it must come from DA codex and no FW. Nephelim is your choice OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 These gaming groups are clinging onto old editions of the game. If Forgeworld - a legitimate part of the Games Workshop brand, says something is ok - who are these players that question it? This is quite simply untrue The BRB even states you set the parameters of the game you wish to play, I stared played round 4th edition and quite a few of the older gamers have some FW stuff. We agree to give it a run out in Apoc style games this is our choice in normal club games we agree to not use these types of units which is also our choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 These gaming groups are clinging onto old editions of the game. If Forgeworld - a legitimate part of the Games Workshop brand, says something is ok - who are these players that question it? This is quite simply untrue The BRB even states you set the parameters of the game you wish to play, I stared played round 4th edition and quite a few of the older gamers have some FW stuff. We agree to give it a run out in Apoc style games this is our choice in normal club games we agree to not use these types of units which is also our choice. Seems like TC has no say in these parameters. How would a chaos player feel if I said he can't use Belakor as he isn't in the standard codex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormxlr Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 These gaming groups are clinging onto old editions of the game. If Forgeworld - a legitimate part of the Games Workshop brand, says something is ok - who are these players that question it? This is quite simply untrue The BRB even states you set the parameters of the game you wish to play, I stared played round 4th edition and quite a few of the older gamers have some FW stuff. We agree to give it a run out in Apoc style games this is our choice in normal club games we agree to not use these types of units which is also our choice. Seems like TC has no say in these parameters. How would a chaos player feel if I said he can't use Belakor as he isn't in the standard codex? The same way if you said he cant summon deamons since they are not in Codex CSM. Simply absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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