Two Questions About the Iron Cage

[Son of Carnelian]

So, I'll get right to it. 

 

1.) By the time the Ultramarines break the stalemate/bloodbath/mutually assured destruction of the Iron Cage, have they already reorganized themselves into Chapters as an example to the other legions? When the background says "the Ultramarines arrive," I find it a bit silly that they would still have themselves organized as a legion after nearly starting a second civil war over the matter. I've come to the conclusion that "Ultramarines" is shorthand in that instance for the Ultramarines and the second founding Chapters they create, but I would hear your perspectives. 

 

2.) Have the Templars broken off nearly completely from the Imperial Fists by the time of the Iron Cage? Obviously they still are fighting alongside them but does Sigismund's appointment to the position of Emperor's Champion finally signal his split with his father?

Especially since the recent material featuring both Sigismund and Dorn has highlighted their ideological rift rather than mend it.

I picture a dedicated core of only a few Astartes that call themselves the Black Templars, but they are wearing all black and none of the Imperial Fists livery. Again, my interpretation. Want more perspectives and opinions. 

 

Thanks again brothers! 

 

Mods, I figured since this takes place during the Scouring that it fits best on this board, but please move it if you feel it should go somewhere else. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Ultramarines split 7 years into the Scouring. Sebastus IV was a decade after the Heresy, so it was the Ultramarines chapter and the Templars were still with the Legion.

[Kol Saresk]

Although it is entirely possible that it will be the "Primogenitors", which are all of the Second Founding Chapters made from the XIII Legion. Reason I bring this up because when the Night Lords were driven from Tsalgualsa one hundred years after the Heresy, the VIII Legion acknowledges they are the "Primogenitors", but still thinks of them as fundamentally Ultramarines.

 

Due to how shattered and disorganized Imperial history is supposed to be, this could be a similar matter.

[Stofficus]

I Imagine the 2nd founding split-off as being a somewhat gradual affair, and given the purpoted scale of the Iron Cage incident, I can't see a single chapter of 1000 Ultras proving a decisive force preserving what was left of the IF and allowing for a withdrawal. They may well have been wholly distinct chapters in name and general organization, but I imagine the XIII still fought largely as a legion until well later, once the Imperial Guard was sufficiently established to handle more serious threats to the Imperium and loyalist marine numbers had recovered sufficiently that the Ultras didn't have to pull the lion's share of the work. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Kols scenario is probably closer to what happened because there is no way 1000 Ultras showing up in lesser classes of warship could've turned the tide in 2 huge legion fights.

[Daemon2027]

They did come at the point when the two legions were basically brawling in the mud though so fresh troops and supplies could shift the fight massively. Still I imagine that the XIII was still largely a legion. I imagine it takes time to set up a chapter from a legion. Organising tithe right son a work, establishing a fortress monastery, allocating troops, serfs, vehicles, ships, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Tsalgualsa is just after the XIII has fully broken down in chapters.

[helterskelter]

The ultras were a touch busy weren't they. Taking on the iron warriors, alpha legion, night lords and emperors children post heresy, even with their numbers that's a lot of big action

[Marshal Rohr]

In Tempest it does also say that the first chapters to be broken off into second founding chapters were the ones not present at Calth, which suggests that the Second Founding was staggered.

[Son of Carnelian]

Okay, so the Ultramarines are a legion. Remaining question is if the Templars are a at least starting to become a distinct faction separate from the rest of the VII. 

[Daemon2027]

I dont think there is anything to suggest either way tbh. We have seen some friction between Sigismund and Dorn, and taking into account the fact the Black Templars are still Legion like in structure it is possible that they were not at the Iron Cage. Or, after Dorn submitted to the new Imperiums wishes he may have sent Sigismund and his Templars off to continue the traditions of the Legion.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's explicitly stated that the Templars were formed after the Iron cage. They and the crimson fists took to the field while the Imperial Fists recovered.

[Daemon2027]

Ahh ok, I stand corrected. Well half of my post does anyway ;)

[Phalanx Warder]

Isn't there some fluff that Dorn took the most stubborn who would have refused to part from the legion to the iron cage? Like a more palatable Istvan style purge of the legion. Maybe fan fic but seems legit.

[HaSY]

Years back in the first HH weekender, they were teasing about UM legion is bigger than whole 40k chapters combined. So you have more than one million steamrolling everyone.

[Slips]

Years back in the first HH weekender, they were teasing about UM legion is bigger than whole 40k chapters combined. So you have more than one million steamrolling everyone.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you:

 

Except the UM aren't anymore since they lost something like 150k+ Marines at Calth alone from their Estimated 250k That they had at their Highest point.

 

That info is also very, very, old comparatively.

 

Especially when  you consider that, until we get the Remaining Legion # Estimates (going by Lexi Numbers), there were ~1.6 Million Astartes at the Height of the Great Crusade running around the Galaxy.

[Marshal Rohr]

There are only a million space marines in 40K. They meant that in 40K all the Ultramarines successors combined don't make up 250K space marines. 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Years back in the first HH weekender, they were teasing about UM legion is bigger than whole 40k chapters combined. So you have more than one million steamrolling everyone.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you:

 

Except the UM aren't anymore since they lost something like 150k+ Marines at Calth alone from their Estimated 250k That they had at their Highest point.

 

That info is also very, very, old comparatively.

 

Especially when you consider that, until we get the Remaining Legion # Estimates (going by Lexi Numbers), there were ~1.6 Million Astartes at the Height of the Great Crusade running around the Galaxy.

And that isn't even counting four Legions.

[Slips]

 

 

Years back in the first HH weekender, they were teasing about UM legion is bigger than whole 40k chapters combined. So you have more than one million steamrolling everyone.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you:

 

Except the UM aren't anymore since they lost something like 150k+ Marines at Calth alone from their Estimated 250k That they had at their Highest point.

 

That info is also very, very, old comparatively.

 

Especially when you consider that, until we get the Remaining Legion # Estimates (going by Lexi Numbers), there were ~1.6 Million Astartes at the Height of the Great Crusade running around the Galaxy.

And that isn't even counting four Legions.

 

Ehh it kinda is. The Lexicanum Page on the Legions has rough estimates on how many the DA, BA, TS and SW had though the info is quite outdated and is very much subject to change pending proper FW Treatment.

[Conn Eremon]

Well, we know the Dark Angels only had 170-210k at their peak, which is a century prior to the Heresy, according to Tempests comparison of the size of the First against the Thirteenth.

 

Plus, we know the absolute minimum number, as that given to the Raven Guard. Allows for a minimum range, at least.

 

Rohr: There are about 600,000 Ultramarines Successor marines in 40k, assuming the 60% of a thousand Chapters are at full strength. But even an average of half strength would be enough.

[Kol Saresk]

And actually the White Scars aren't up there. Like at all. And neither are the Dark Angels.

 

Although Conn just provided the 1st Legion's numbers from Tempest, so +1 to him.

 

But still, numbers have changed since A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns so the only three Legions without current numbers would be the SW, TS and WS.

[Conn Eremon]

Decided to do the numbers, as given by Forge World.

 

We have 13 Legions with numbers given, some of which are a range rather than a specific number. As such, I made two totals to encompass the minimums and maximums of the ranges.

 

Using just the numbers provided, we have a minimum of 1,586,000 Legionaries and a maximum of 1,836,000 Legionaries.

 

I filled in the missing five Legions, using the Raven Guard numbers to represent the minimum, and the average Legion size (131,620) as the maximum.

 

This gave us a grand total, rounding up because they were damn close to these numbers anyways, of 2,000,000 to 2,500,000 for all 18 Legions.

 

Edit: To clarify on the First Legion: Tempest has it that a century into the Crusade, a century prior to the Heresy, the First Legion lost 50,000 Legionaries saving the Imperium from some galactically northern threat. At this point, the XIII had 160k total. It was this that made the XIII the single, largest Legion of all, an achievement the First had held onto up to this point.

 

It also explains that the First never recover to this former height.

[Slips]

And actually the White Scars aren't up there. Like at all. And neither are the Dark Angels.

 

Although Conn just provided the 1st Legion's numbers from Tempest, so +1 to him.

 

But still, numbers have changed since A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns so the only three Legions without current numbers would be the SW, TS and WS.

Especially since they number the TS at 10k Whereas Extermination states that the RG were the smallest post Gate 42, iirc.

 

...We'll just have to wait and see.

 

As to the topic at hand however~

 

As per #2, the IF Split up after the Iron Cage, though, beforehand, the Templar Bros were a Company in-and-of-themselves numbering (oddly enough) no more than 1k Marines at any given point. Now, while most would've probably gone on their Merry way following Sigismund when the Legion finally broke down, probably not all of them would have since I think its noted that the most Hot-Headed of the Legion went with Siggy while the Most Level-Headed / Codex Accepting went with Polux and the Crimson Fists while those who loved Papa Dorn oh-so-much stayed with the Imperial Fists.

 

Still, until his disappearance, I would assume that, since all three were (until Rynns world for the CF) Fleet Based Chapters, Dorn would have had a decent amount of Control over the IF and their Successors - he was the Primarch After all.

[Conn Eremon]

Slipstreams brings up something I've always preferred to think of it as. We now know that Polux had his own Company. We know the Templar technically already existed within the Fists.

 

But I don't think that these elements simply became the 2nd Founding Successors wholesale. Rather, the split up could have been ragged, with plenty of overlap. Legionary Templar need not only have taken the black, but may have bound their fists in red, or forsaken their heraldic cross for a field of gold. In other words, each of these three Chapters, and however many extra there were, could have included any type of Imperial Fist Legionary, up to and including the First Company Templar, in their number.

[Slips]

Slipstreams brings up something I've always preferred to think of it as. We now know that Polux had his own Company. We know the Templar technically already existed within the Fists.

 

But I don't think that these elements simply became the 2nd Founding Successors wholesale. Rather, the split up could have been ragged, with plenty of overlap. Legionary Templar need not only have taken the black, but may have bound their fists in red, or forsaken their heraldic cross for a field of gold. In other words, each of these three Chapters, and however many extra there were, could have included any type of Imperial Fist Legionary, up to and including the First Company Templar, in their number.

It would certainly help "Codexify" the various 2nd Founding Chapters.

 

Need some Vets? Guess what! Those Templar Bros hand-picked by Sigismund? Well, they don't feel like Crusadin' Eternally and they kinda like Polux over there.

 

1st Company CF vets DONE.

 

Etc. For the rest of the Chapters.

 

Ex:

Honor Guard? Well, there are literally (we dont have definite numbers, do we?) hundreds of Phalanx Warders that can't really serve aboard the Phalanx anymore because of Manpower Limitations...

Librarians? Good thing Dorn kept them all locked up in relative safety...right?

etc, etc.

[Conn Eremon]

Certainly gives some nice ideas. A Black Templar who was not one of Sigismund's own. A Crimson Fist captain who still bears the heraldic cross as his personal sigil.

 

Also, made an error in my calculations, accidentally included the Missing Two. The true assumed grand total for the Eighteen is 1,906,000 to 2,362,480.