Slips Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Certainly gives some nice ideas. A Black Templar who was not one of Sigismund's own. A Crimson Fist captain who still bears the heraldic cross as his personal sigil. Also, made an error in my calculations, accidentally included the Missing Two. The true assumed grand total for the Eighteen is 1,906,000 to 2,362,480. 2 million Astartes spread across the galaxy *sigh* what a Time to be alive... /glazed-over-daydream-eyes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4107016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I imagine that while there would be choice, there would also be some allocation, otherwise a new chapter may end up without specialists in a certain area. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4107019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 The Black Templars were formed strictly from the legionaries that refused to except the codex, full stop. The Templars of the VII Legion were specifically picked for their loyalty to the Primarch and the Emperor's vision, so it is not clear cut that the Black Templars would've even had a large number of first company Templars since evidence as stated points towards those kinds of Legionaries being more likely to serve the Primarch first. Also, it's interesting because this implies Dorn allowed the Legion to essentially vote on whether or not they would accept the Codex. That would also imply the Templars never followed the Codex and depending on how many survivors of the Siege and Scouring their are, the Templars may have always exceeded 1000 marines. It's also annoying that the new Codex fluff would make this into all the legionaries that followed Sigismund believed the Emperor was a :cuss god. :cuss studio. Pieces of :cuss. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4107022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 They've had that bit since forever. In 3rd Edition Index Astartes articles, all Astartes saw the Emperor as a god. And they are named the Templars. Them not worshipping the Emperor is a purely fanbased notion that ironically uses tidbits from McNeill's Ultramarine series to be validated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4107030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 They've had that bit since forever. In 3rd Edition Index Astartes articles, all Astartes saw the Emperor as a god. And they are named the Templars. Them not worshipping the Emperor is a purely fanbased notion that ironically uses tidbits from McNeill's Ultramarine series to be validated. That's about 100% untrue. Index Astartes II, no god-emperor worship. Codex Black Templars, no Emperor worship. Helsreach, no Emperor Worship, and Blood and Fire, there is a full explanation that the Templars don't believe the Emperor is a God. No Chapter worshipped the emperor as a God. There is an IA article dealing entirely with the Chaplaincy. Edit: Im not going to go full Legatus, and quote the respective pieces, but they were my Chapter for a decade, and I devoted hours of my life to learning their background back to front. It is a change. Thats all there is to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4107045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Then I would encourage a rereading. The Black Templars article says that the Black Templars pray to the Emperor in faith and that even Sigismund himself had faith, faith being the motivator to help him found the Templars as a Chapter. And then their beliefs section where they are described as being fanatical. That Chaplains article? Go back to the part where it says that some Chapters worship their Primarchs as gods and demi-gods and that each Chapter has its own cult and attached variations and that only on average, each Chapter sees the Emperor as a truly enlightened individual. And then feel free to move on to the Ultramarines and Iron Hands articles where those two Chapters are said to worship the Emperor. The only new part that doesn't jive with the old, is the sudden tolerance of psykers. After that, you can argue that they didn't worship the Emperor, but that doesn't stop them from thinking they receive visions from Him or that they have enough faith that they believe He will answer their prayers for protection in battle. It might be more blatant now, but the seeds for worship in the Templars is old. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4107328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Dude, that's just.... Not the same thing. Index Astartes - No Mentions of Deification of the Emperor Codex: Black Templars - No Mentions of Deification of the Emperor Helsreach - Grimaldus specifically states he is not an officer of the Imperial Creed Blood and Fire - Grimaldus reminisces about how the Imperium at large has forgotten the Emperor was just a man and turned to worshipping him Like I said before, I'm not going to go through and quote every piece of relevant literature. Frankly, that would be pointless. I know everything there is to know about the Templars. Faith, Heresy, Zeal, etc are all part of the hypocrisy that made the chapter so appealing. When secular beliefs are corrupted into its own form of god-less religion, that was what made me love the Templars. Again, this is the Heresy forum. This isn't the place to discuss what pieces of :cuss the studio writers are. This is a good discussion, the likes of which have been rare in this sub-forum for months. There aren't enough fluff discussion threads anymore, so lets not derail it by talking about a chapter that doesn't exist as far as the sub-forum is concerned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4107339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 To you and many others, it seems not. To others, such as myself, it was. Either way we take it, that previous language allowed for the possibility of both being right. Now, only one is. Bringing it back to the Iron Cage, this could be one of the markers that separated the Black Templars to be from the VIIth Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4107350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I suspect that the founding of the Black Templars will be rewritten when Black Library ever comes around to it. Way back, it was said that the seasoned veterans remained to found the Imperial Fists Chapter, the hotheads who were too immersed in vengeance went to found the Black Templars, and the younger, calmer members founded the Crimson Fists. But that was at a time when Sigismund had been but a simple battle brother who was honoured for being an outsnanding fighter. But then Black Library turned him into the "First Captain" of the Imperial Fists Legion, thereby completely messing with the purpose of the "Champion of the Emperor". And now the Templars were supposedly an already existing formation within the Imperial Fists Legion. So it seems like Black Library is setting this up for eventually First Captain Sigismund taking his own, already existing Chapter and splitting that off from the Legion. As opposed to the over zealous Marines from the Imperial Fists Legion rallying behind brother SIgismund, the greatest fighter the Legion had produced, who was honoured by being made the Master of one of the newly created autonomous Chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4107381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Carnelian Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 I suspect that the founding of the Black Templars will be rewritten when Black Library ever comes around to it. Way back, it was said that the seasoned veterans remained to found the Imperial Fists Chapter, the hotheads who were too immersed in vengeance went to found the Black Templars, and the younger, calmer members founded the Crimson Fists. But that was at a time when Sigismund had been but a simple battle brother who was honoured for being an outsnanding fighter. But then Black Library turned him into the "First Captain" of the Imperial Fists Legion, thereby completely messing with the purpose of the "Champion of the Emperor". And now the Templars were supposedly an already existing formation within the Imperial Fists Legion. So it seems like Black Library is setting this up for eventually First Captain Sigismund taking his own, already existing Chapter and splitting that off from the Legion. As opposed to the over zealous Marines from the Imperial Fists Legion rallying behind brother SIgismund, the greatest fighter the Legion had produced, who was honoured by being made the Master of one of the newly created autonomous Chapters. I don't see how those ideas are incompatible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4107761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The fists broke into chapters after the iron cage with the following chapters remaining. Imperial fists Crimson fists Black templars Excoriators And possibly the executioners (Fafnir Rann was their first CM and was alive during the heresy... I would venture to guess he took control of the phalanx warders and set off on his path, with seekers as well I say that based on their company organization) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4108328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 You missed the Soul Drinkers jeremy. *dodges bolt round* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4108528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Haha Reyner I was tempted to say that but showed some restraint. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4108571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalpynock Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Weren't the (probably too under-fluffed for our theorizing, I'll concede) Iron Knights a Second Founding VII successor as well? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4108620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Iron Knights are a later founding. Don't get too caught up in who is and isn't a second founding chapter besides the official 2. It'll make your head spin. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310264-two-questions-about-the-iron-cage/page/2/#findComment-4108636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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