Ravenwing Support Squadron Question

[Ultra Magnus]

Can anyone confirm the correct interaction of the Jinx USR and vehicle squadrons? Can a single model in the squadron declare its Jinks save against incoming shooting or does the whole squadron have to Jinks as a unit?

 

If it is the former then this formation becomes amazingly powerful, with the potential to to have the Dark Shroud tanking incoming hits while allowing the remaining speeders behind it to continue to fire at full BS. If not, and the whole unit must Jinks at the same time, then I am less thrilled with this combo as it ties up a lot of points and firepower into a single unit that can be focused down and easily neutered with the application of almost any heavy or special weapon in the game.

 

I am assuming the "they must all Jinks" version of the rule is correct but I have been wrong before :).

[Solrac]

When you declare a Jink then the whole unit/squadron Jinks unfortunately. It explains it in full in the Jink rule (p167) in the BRB, too lazy to type it out though :P

[ValourousHeart]

As Solrac said, consider similar to how going to ground works.

It isn't just one guy jumping into the fox hole.

 

I am not going to tell you how best to react, but I think it is foolish it assume the internet knows anything.

Your worry is based upon the chance that a particular unit might be persecuted, and based on that change determining if a unit is good or not.

 

At its core this game, similar to others, is based upon numbers.

Statistically it takes 6 wounds to kill 1 TDA model.

Be we all know that it could only take 1 shot to kill that TDA model or that model could shrug off 100 wounds.

 

If the only way you feel that you can win is with a deathstar that is impossible to kill (BTW there isn't one) then you propbably shouldn't consider speeders.

 

But as an alternative to creating a deathstar you could take the MSU approach and overwhelm your opponent with more targets than he can deal with.

 

Both styles work well and both have their advantages and disadvantages.

The difference comes from your ability to react to cercumstance in the game with the resources at hand.

[MithrilForge]

LOL ....

"Can anyone confirm the correct interaction of the Jinx USR and vehicle squadrons? Can a single model in the squadron declare its Jinks save against incoming shooting or does the whole squadron have to Jinks as a unit?"

you see the yellow part..that would be correct if we played cheesehammer but we're playing warhammer so you better learn to play without Deathstars

Mithril

[Jazzhands]

It's still a fantastically good unit

[SprinkKnoT]

Can a support squadron overwatch for itself? It itself is a friendly unit and it has the grim resolve rule so I'm not sure.

[SnakeChisler]

Vehicles can't overwatch without exceptions

 

Ravenshield gives the ability to Overwatch against an assault to another unit

 

Overwatch is 1 weapon only unless it has an exception but this is kind of uncharted territory so I'm going to have to scour the rule book somewhat.

 

With regard to the Jink all you do is put the shroud as the closest and behind cover so it gets a 2+ save without jinking the 3 speeders can sit in the open, your going to roll 1's at some stage so just accept your 80 points may die quickly or be a game winner.

 

I've tried it out already and twin HB's are a sweet spot for points with this the real nasty one is the 3 Typhoon's with Vengance but your large footprint means you'll end up jinking, other option is to take a couple of speeders stock and use them as wounds, trying to get cover but shielding the Vengance

[Jazzhands]

Nowhere in brb does it say you can only overwatch with one weapon

[ValourousHeart]

The rule book also doesn't say that vehicles can't shoot overwatch without exception.

It is just that vehicles normally can't shoot overwatch.

 

Grim Resolve appears to be granting not only a bonus to overwatch, but also the ability to overwatch if not already available.

 

There are only 2 units in the codex that have Grim Resolve that otherwise could not use it.

One being Sableclaw and the other is the RW Support Squadron.

It isn't that over powered, as it is limited to just those 2 units, one of which is a character/HQ with unique rules and the other is well... consider this.

 

Example 1 - You charge the Bike Squad next to the Support Squadron, both get to overwatch.

Example 2 - You charge the Support Squadron next to the Bike Squad, neither get to overwatch.

 

That second example doesn't make sense, why would the speeders protect the bikes but not themselves.

[SprinkKnoT]

Note: Ravenshield does not say another. It simply says a friendly unit. I believe a unit is a friendly unit to itself, ergo the squad can overwatch.

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

There was something in there I got to find it, one of the formations allows vehicles in that formation to overwatch for friendly vehicles in that formation. 

 

Pg 223 [interactive Edition] - Ravenshield: When an enemy unit declares a charge against a friendly unit with the Ravenwing special rule, models from this Formation within 24" of that friendly unit can choose to fire Overwatch against the charging unit (even  though vehicles cannot normally fire Overwatch). Template weapons can only use the Wall of Death special rule if they are within 6" of the friendly unit. Remember that a unit can still only fire Overwatch once per turn. 

[Elios Harg]

Correct, any time a rule says "a friendly unit (or model) within..." the unit/model with the rule counts itself unless specifically prohibited such as with the Dark Shroud or if the unit does not contain a requirement, for example if the RWSS did *not* have the Ravenwing rule (which it does).

[Ultra Magnus]

I am not sure were the notion came in that I was seeking to build a deathstar unit. I only wanted to clarify the correct application of the Jinks rule as, as a DA player, I have never had cause to use a vehicle squadron previously and know per the rulebook that they have a unique set of rules applied to them. As I mentioned in my post, I assumed that it did in fact Jinks as a unit.

 

That said it gives me pause to deploying this unit. It is extremely expensive, clocking in at 230 pts in its cheapest (and least effective) configuration. If I wanted to put legitimate weapons on these speeders (or include the Vengeance) then the cost skyrockets. For that price, I can ill afford to have that many points not doing anything in my list, and with AV10, if I am not jinking it is going down in flames to just about anything and you can bet it will be getting focused on right away by any competent opponent.

 

I suppose if I am taking it along with a CAD I can toss in an Ageis Defense Line to ensure a non Jinks save (at least T1) but then I lose out quite on mobility and most likely the overwatch bonus as my bikes range forward.

[ValourousHeart]

You are right you never did say that you are looking for a deathstar. But you did say this just now and something similar before.

 

I can ill afford to have that many points not doing anything in my list, and with AV10, if I am not jinking it is going down in flames to just about anything and you can bet it will be getting focused on right away by any competent opponent.

Given that tone and meaning don't translate across the internet, only sarcasm and rudeness, what I am about to say will most likely be interpreted in the worst possible way.

 

If you find that you need to Jink all of the time, it means you made a mistake, and it could possibly cost you the game. You are most likely playing to aggressively and are passing units without dealing with them or you are getting to close to too many units.

 

Ideally you should eliminate full units or at lease prevent them from responding meaningfully. Leaving 3 tac marines that have will only be able to snap next round isn't bad. Parking next to that unit and 2 other full squads with nothing to do but shoot and charge you is bad.

 

Given that you are able to move faster than most units and you have as good or better range, you should leave them with no units in range/los without moving or 3x more units than they can deal with.

 

If you don't know how to effectively use MSU to overwhelm an opponent, then you probably need to look into the deathstar approach.

[twopounder]

The rule book also doesn't say that vehicles can't shoot overwatch without exception.

It is just that vehicles normally can't shoot overwatch.

 

Grim Resolve appears to be granting not only a bonus to overwatch, but also the ability to overwatch if not already available.

 

There are only 2 units in the codex that have Grim Resolve that otherwise could not use it.

One being Sableclaw and the other is the RW Support Squadron.

It isn't that over powered, as it is limited to just those 2 units, one of which is a character/HQ with unique rules and the other is well... consider this.

 

Example 1 - You charge the Bike Squad next to the Support Squadron, both get to overwatch.

Example 2 - You charge the Support Squadron next to the Bike Squad, neither get to overwatch.

 

That second example doesn't make sense, why would the speeders protect the bikes but not themselves.

 

grim resolve does not grant overwatch. It simply increases BS when you do. Ravenshield explicitly gives the vehicles the ability to overwatch, noting that they normally would not be able to.

[march10k]

Vehicles can't overwatch without exceptions

 

 

 

Erm....Longstrike?

[Cactus]

Longstrike is an exception so SnakeChisler's statement is still logically sound.

[marti350]

I think you may also be overreacting to the cost. This isn't a kill unit, it is a support unit that happens to be able to kill. 3 landspeeders with double HB each and a darkshroud runs 245 points. Puts out 21 S5 AP4 shots a turn so even with jinking you're getting some hits, provides great boosts to your allied bikes and can move up to 36" a turn if you give up your shooting that turn so great for late game objective grabs. I ran it in a 1250 point game over the weekend and it probably won the game for me despite the darkshroud dying turn 2. It kept everything else alive long enough to alpha down the enemy

[ValourousHeart]

grim resolve does not grant overwatch. It simply increases BS when you do. Ravenshield explicitly gives the vehicles the ability to overwatch, noting that they normally would not be able to.

Ravenshield isn't specifically giving overwatch, it is giving the ability to overwatch on behalf of friendly units. This is very similar to how Tau works, their transports and tanks can overwatch if they are nearby infantry or jetpack units which are charged, but can not overwatch to defend themselves.

But if I am understanding this rule correctly our formation could overwatch when a friendly ravenwing unit is charged, even if that unit is otherwise unable to overwatch. For example you are charging a unit of speeders or a unit locked in CC.

Longstrike is an exception so SnakeChisler's statement is still logically sound.

That is just my point, Sableclaw would be an exception. Otherwise there is no reason for that model to have Grim Resolve.

[SnakeChisler]

Whatever the reason GW had for adding Grim Resolve SableClaw doesn't do overwatch

 

Its a shame they didn't make it a chariot but at AV14 it would have been a complete pain to deal with in Combat, anyways a version of Vector Strike is a nice buff  

[notmattlythgoe]

A question I have about this formation is does the unit still benefit from the 3+ landspeeder unit bonus?

[IndigoJack]

The rules for anti-grav upwash say that the unit must include at least 3 land speeders, but doesn't say that it has to include only land speeders. So I believe the answer is yes.

[WellSpokenMan]

Another interesting thing I just realized about this unit is that if it fires interceptor, it loses nothing by Jinking because it's next turn of shooting has already occured.  It's going to be hard to kill this unit with Drop Pods.

[twopounder]

grim resolve does not grant overwatch. It simply increases BS when you do. Ravenshield explicitly gives the vehicles the ability to overwatch, noting that they normally would not be able to.

Ravenshield isn't specifically giving overwatch, it is giving the ability to overwatch on behalf of friendly units. This is very similar to how Tau works, their transports and tanks can overwatch if they are nearby infantry or jetpack units which are charged, but can not overwatch to defend themselves.

But if I am understanding this rule correctly our formation could overwatch when a friendly ravenwing unit is charged, even if that unit is otherwise unable to overwatch. For example you are charging a unit of speeders or a unit locked in CC.

Longstrike is an exception so SnakeChisler's statement is still logically sound.

That is just my point, Sableclaw would be an exception. Otherwise there is no reason for that model to have Grim Resolve.

Page 143 - "Ravenshield: When an enemy unit declares a charge against a friendly unit with the Ravenwing special rule, models from this Formation within 24" of that friendly unit can choose to fire Overwatch against the charging unit (even though vehicles cannot normally fire Overwatch)."

Yes, it does explicitly provide an exception. There are no exceptions anywhere in the codex provided for other vehicles, blast weapons, or units that could not normally overwatch. And even then, Ravenshield only works when ravenwing units are being assaulted.