Interested In Grey Knights...

[Cpt. Lacerus]

Greetings, Knights. It has been quite some time since I started a topic in this sub-forum and the Astartes of Titan have seen many changes since then. I come to you today with some fluff and gaming related questions that I'm sure y'all will be able to answer easily.

 

First we will start with the TT questions. I have not managed to get my hands on the new codex as my local GW shut down quite some time ago. I keep hearing that Draigo is a huge beatstick. Is this true? He was decent last edition but his sword only had AP2 against daemons. Has this been changed to AP2 at initiative all the time? Also, how are the Brotherhood-Champions and Captains? Do Champs still have a high WS and multiple stances? Are Captains even worth taking compared to the other HQ choices?

 

Now to the fluff end. Last edition they were pretty much painted as the Inquisitions bitch boys...this was a massive turn off for me. I always viewed them as their own Chapter that works closely with the Inquisition as a means to an end. I have heard since they were given their own dex again that the fluff has sort of reverted back to them working hand in hand with the Inquisition as opposed to them being directly at the mercy of them. I also wonder your opinions of ADB's The Emperor's Gift. I am only a few chapters in and I find it to be a nice look at the GK and their relationship with each other and the Inq. Now between me and you I kinda cheated and flipped through the back few pages and read a bit of their battles with the Wolves. It seems that Grimnar walks through us like it's nothing and murders damn near everyone. Was this because we had a lack of veterans present? He seems to one shot a GK GM like golly gee? I mean Grimnar is a beast but damn. Lemme TP right onto your bridge, bitch slap you, and then TP right back out. Is the rest of the fighting so one sided? I think that's about it for right now. Thanks y'all for your time!

[Zembar]

I'll start with the crunchy bits for you:

• Draigo is great. He's AP2 at initiative all day, everyday. His point cost is in land raider territory, but he can mostly tank better than one, and with Gate of Infinity as a fixed power, he provides more mobility than one as well.
• Brotherhood Champions are mostly a joke, The stances apply only in challenges, and their lack of mobility cripples them.
• Captains are a viable alternative. I don't think they're as good as Librarians, personally, but there's certainly a strong case to be made for them. They should be upgraded to Grand Masters though.

[Cpt. Lacerus]

Thanks for the info! Glad to hear Draigo got buffed. I'm sorry to hear Champs aren't that great, but are they still WS 7? At least I think that's what they were before I may be wrong. Also, I guess I'm a "purist" as in if I played GK I would play only GK in my list. I'm also a massive fluff nut and love getting into CC. I have a very aggressive play style and CC ability means a lot to me. I'm definitely way more into fluff and fun over competitive play.

[Bartali]

Re HQs - In terms of rules alone, Librarians are really the only choice. You can get a Level 3(!) Librarian in TDA for cheaper than any of the other choices. If you want a beat stick, or a Gate Taxi, take Draigo as well.

[Gentlemanloser]

Heh, don't get me started on Logan versus a GKGM...

 

 

I, dislike, that section.  Especially as;

 

1: The GKGM was painted as being *on edge*, with hands on Falchions (the notoriously fast weapons - in game), ready for betrayal.

2: Logan's Axe was burried int he deck floor in front of him.

3: The GKs were presented thorughout the book as being akin to a psychic hive mind, all linked, and more powerul, the more there were.  And there were like 100 GK present.  All focused on Logan and the Wolves.  If the GM (who was portrayed as a douche thorughout, so we wouldn't like him) hadn't notice Logan in time, then the other 100 GK, psychically linked to his mind should have.

 

Heck the GK contained a lot of Telekines, able to erect Force Shields to deflect Primarch's blows. 

 

Yet with all this, Logan was able to pull his Axe form the ground, and chop the GKGM head off, without *anyone* responding.

 

And after an Inquisitor Lord decreed Logan Traitoris Excommunicatus, they SW still held the Inquisition/GKs to a protracted standstill, until the Excommunication was largely forgotten/ignored....

 

 

Apart from that, it's a throughly enjoyable and entertaining book! Totally worth the read, and miles better than the end of Ben Counters GK trillogy.

 

 

 

Is the rest of the fighting so one sided?

 

 

Give Logan and the couple of guys he had with him thier dues...  All they had to do to stop 100odd GK from disrupting the Teleportating back off thier barge was to shoot and kill 5 more GK Justicars.  And not escape any punisment what so ever from murdering 5 Justicars and a GKGM.

 

 

Yeah, and if Logan is supposed to be *that* good, there's no way he hits with the flat of his blade later on either....

[thade]

The Emperor's Gift is a definitive work on our army; I really enjoyed it, and it's the best GK fiction I've seen. 10 out of 10 would read again.

 

The dialog between the Inquisitor and =][= REDACTED =][= on the Fang is the stuff of legends. As to whether Grimnar is badass enough to stand practically unopposed in melee by some of our best troops: yes, he is; let's not forget the SW were likely the ones that went after another Astartes chapter known for their Warp powers, so they have some hand-me-down training that's of use, I bet; seriously, Grimnar is a badass.

 

The GK aren't a "hive mind". That talk sounds suspiciously like the motives of Ordo Hydra. Report to Deck 13, Section C for debriefing. The Inquisitor awaits you.

 

All of you.

[Gentlemanloser]

The GK aren't a "hive mind".

 

That is quite literally how ADB described the GK working, in all thier combat encounters.  There are numerous accounts of the GK drawing power from either other, that goes beyond 'brotherhood of psykers'.

 

(And personally, how I would have described Hyp doing the stuff he does.  Using his special Psychic abilites in conjunction with the combined psychic might of all the GK surrounding him)

 

 

Don't forget, Hyps Justicar used to communicate with his squad Telepathically *all* the time, due to his ruined voice, and Hyp was near constantly in contact with the SW Inquisitior every time that went into combat together

 

 

 

 

The Inquisitor awaits you.

 

Pfft.

 

I refuse to recognise that Inquisitors jurisdiction.

 

Everyone else seemingly does! :P

[thade]

Communicating telepathically all the time doesn't equate to a hive mind. A hive mind is more accurately represented by Tyranids and similarly grotesque xenos, where there's really just One Mind, i.e. one brain that does the deciding with lots and lots of little sensors attached to brains that report in and ask what to do. Knights have volition, control over their own actions, their own motivations and ideas...that's not a hive mind at all.

While maybe a writer here or there may use the term "hive mind" as a hyperbolic literary device to make a point of how closely together a unit is and how well they function together, when push comes to shove they are individuals. That's quite a big theme in The Emperor's Gift; it comes up again and again that, in spite of their constant communion and their not really being human anymore, they still have human traits and still make (huge) mistakes due to their individuality.

Pfft.

I refuse to recognise that Inquisitors jurisdiction.

Everyone else seemingly does!

Is that how you "remember" it?

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh I don't mean there's only one controlling brain.  But that each can sense each other, feel their emotions, use their senses, etc.

 

A lot more, communal than say just the Justicar being the focus for the Squads psychic might.

[jeffersonian000]

Ironically, the new Librarius Conclave acts exactly like our 5man squads do in the literature: pooling their strength to support one specific member cast to greatest effect. Brotherhood of Psykers models this quite well on a much smaller scale. Hope we see some more shared psychic might in our future additions to the setting.

 

SJ

[Prot]

Ironically, the new Librarius Conclave acts exactly like our 5man squads do in the literature: pooling their strength to support one specific member cast to greatest effect. Brotherhood of Psykers models this quite well on a much smaller scale. Hope we see some more shared psychic might in our future additions to the setting.

 

SJ

 

I agree, but I have a strong feeling by the time they redo our codex, the Grey Knights variant will make the current LibCon look like that 10 year matrix kid trying to bend a spoon. ;)

[Cpt. Lacerus]

Thanks for the info, brothers. I am about half way through The Emperor's Gift now and I'm loving it so far. I've had a few cringe moments when Annika "pulls rank" and such on the GK, but other than that it's great. I just feel that the ONLY organization in existence with 10k years of perfect purity shouldn't have to take orders from LITERALLY anyone save the High Lords themselves. I am fine with the Inquisition being equals, but not above them.

 

I am actually really enjoying how the GK are portrayed as a whole so far. They seem to be very individualistic yet I really like their psychic comfort and connection they have with each other. I cannot even begin to imagine how effective a fighting force would be if they could react to situations at the speed of THOUGHT. Pretty mind-blowing.

 

I am at the part where they are about to meet the Wolves and I am kind of not lookin forward to it haha. I am actually a massive SW fan and being that I know their attitude toward everyone. Not really looking forwad to seeing the wolves, I'm sure, disrespect everyone including people the GK are suppose to be subservient to and get no recourse whatsoever cuz reasons. It's kinda bs but whatever. We'll see how it goes!

[thade]

Strife between Imperial elements isn't uncommon, and can even come to blows at times; that's all part of the theme of the Grim Dark.

[Trevak Dal]

I see the Grey Knights as the best at what they do and it's heavily implied in the Emperor's Gift that Annika and other Inquisitors have to apply for Grey Knight squad patronage, and she was half begging them to stay on-but she's Fenrisian so it came out as threatening undertones which Hyperion found peculiar.

 

All in all, it's usually for the Greater Good if they do what the Inquisition says-but when they don't, I imagine it's because the Grey Knights have a tighter sense on something worse coming-and are probably given a lot more leeway than any other chapter BECAUSE they are the best at what they do, and whenever and wherever they show up-:cuss has gone Really Bad or is going to (its that way with normal Astartes...but even more so with Grey Knights).

 

Hyperion seems to grapple with some of the morality of what happens-but only briefly-because it's for the Greater Good of the imperium.  If what happened wasn't contained as thoroughly as possible, then it could manifest in other places (I'm trying to be vague...).  It's terrible, horrible and unfair as hell-but for the Imperium to survive, Good People often have to have bad things done to them.

Grimnar, sees that to do that is a great dishonor-and as a Chaptermaster is his RIGHT to disagree.  He takes that :cuss a bit far-and if it had been Chaptermaster Jackery Higgle of the Star Hippos chapters, the Star Hippos would have been on a penitent crusade and probably have a new chaptermaster.  But the Space Wolves (and all First Founding Loyalist Chapters) get special treatment Because They were First Founding Loyalist chapters-their ancestors stood with the Emperor in the Imperium's darkest hours-and that means something.

I might be incorrect on some details, but that's mostly how I feel it is.

[Gentlemanloser]

I also feel that the mention of Shame (both by ADB and Hyp) is misplaced. But to explain further would open too many spoilers.

Hyp also notes a couple of times on Grimmnar missing the 'big picture'.

And Logans actions have doomed billions in the imperium, and countless worlds. When it could have been contained to 'mere' millions and a single world. And Logans, Pride (oh look, something the Emperors Children would have been proud about! ), blinded him to the 'bigger picture'. The Space Wolves actions have now doomed countless worlds in the Imperium, and they simply do not care.

[jeffersonian000]

Odd. I had the impression that GKs assist the Inquisition as necessary, not at the Inquisition's beck and call. Castian was already leaving Annika when she literally begged them to stay, not because she asked, but because her need aligned with their goals. GK are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, they answer to the High Lords while working with the Inquisition.

 

SJ

[Lucien Eilam]

Officially, everyone answers to the Inquisition, even the High Lords of Terra. They have the authority to order anyone, short of the Emperor himself, to do anything.

The only checks on their power are the inevitable "another Inquisitor with a different agenda" and the fact that, ultimately, an Inquisitor is just a bloke with a badge in an empire with unreliable comms and spotty record-keeping, so it pays to play things smart and diplomatic if you don't want to be the unfortunate victim of a friendly fire incident, or dumped out of an airlock mid-Warp jump.
 

Hyp also notes a couple of times on Grimmnar missing the 'big picture'.

From the Wolves' perspective though, that's no more persuasive than a playground bully's "now look what you made me do".

 

It's a story about honourable idealists versus Machiavellian pragmatists. "I'm going to kill billions because you stopped me killing millions" is no way to convince an idealist.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, that would be true if it's "I'm going to kill billions".  But that's not the issue.

 

Billions *will* now die.  Directly due to the actions of the Wolves.  The deaths that follow are an attempt to stop Billions *more* from dying....

 

That's what the Wolves miss by their misplaced 'pride'.  They are putting their reputation above the lives of billions upon billions of Imperial subjects.

 

All under the guise of protecting the same.

 

 

The humans living on Armageddon were effectively dead anyway.  They were corrupted by the sheer presence of the archenemy on the Planet and their lives were over.  At best they die screaming mad in later life, at worse they mutate/start to worship Chaos.  Letting them flee to other planets only spreads the corruption and infects more.  Which then spreads and spread.  Until the GK step in to stem the tide.  That is what Logan misses.  It's not a bully tactic of "you're making me kill these people".  Their lives are over anyway.  Killing them is to protect others...

 

 

That being said, the Inquisition *were not even going to kill them*.  But sterilize them, so their (mutated) genetic line could not continue.  The Inquisition was going to let them live out the rest of their lives on the hives of Armageddon.

 

But the Wolves *ruined* that, by trying to get them off world.

 

It was such a stupid decision it boggles the mind.  The wolves put the rest of the Imperium in massive danger, and forced the Inquisitions/GKs hand.

 

 

[Lucien Eilam]

The defenders and the population weren't all corrupted. They just happened to be on the same planet. They were never even on the same continent as the daemons and Grey Knights. It was just more expedient for the Inquisition to exterminate the defenders and sterilise the population than check.
 
The population weren't going to "live out the rest of their lives in the hives of Armageddon". They were to be shipped off-world to forced labour camps so a new population could take over Armageddon's vital production. It was a death sentence in all but name:
 

‘The Great Wolf was adamant in his orders. Entire populations of some hive cities haven’t even been touched by this war. That’s why he ordered all Grey Knights out of the cities.’
 
‘And there’s been no contamination while I was wounded? Not a single soul saw any of my order, in these last one hundred days? None of those cities saw even the dust from an enemy army on the horizon?’

 

‘I’ve killed before, Hyperion. I’ve murdered to keep secrets. A whole city sector once died by my order, burning up in fire from the sky, because I had to be sure a single cult was eradicated. But this is genocide. A global purge, for the basest of reasons, convenience. The troop transports will leave within the week, Grey Knight. What will you do then?’
 
I turned back to her, speaking through clenched teeth. Armoured as I was, I towered above her.
 
‘I’ll open fire on them and consign those brave souls to oblivion, as the Inquisition will no doubt order me to do. I’ll do my duty, Annika.’

 
And the only direct action resulting was literally the Inquisition killing "billions and billions" to keep the secret:
 

‘What can you hope to achieve? We’ll still hunt down every ship that manages to flee, and when we do, entire worlds will have to burn in order to keep the secret from spreading even further. Every listening station that marked the ships’ passage. Every world where the ships dock. Billions and billions of lives, Grimnar.’

You can argue it wasn't worth the risk of letting anyone live, of course, but the only reason that billions are guaranteed to die is because the Inquisition are going to kill them.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

The defenders and the population weren't all corrupted.

 

I'm not able to find the passages to quote, but I'm 100% sure that both Hyp and the Inquisition mentioned that the populace *was* corrupted, which is the whole reason they couldn't let them leave the planet.

 

They didn't see the GK, and were on the other continent, but the breech was so potent it had effected everyone on the Planet.

 

 

 

They were to be shipped off-world to forced labour camps so a new population could take over Armageddon's vital production. It was a death sentence in all but name

 

But still alive.  They weren't being executed.

 

 

 

but the only reason that billions are guaranteed to die is because the Inquisition are going to kill them.

 

Only to stop other countless billions upon billions be corrupted by the spread.

 

That's the point.

 

The survivors couldn't be allowed onto other worlds, because their presence would spread the corruption.  Which would necessitate those worlds dying, to stop the spread to even more worlds.

 

It's a massive domino effect.

[Cpt. Lacerus]

Well I finished the book up, and I must say I enjoyed it more than I thought I would. ADB is just a phenomenal author and is so easy to read. He is descriptive without bogging me down with details like McNeill can do. I actually felt for both sides of the conflict and enjoyed Hyperion's struggle. It was fascinating to see the Inquisition and GK struggle with themselves and even decide upon a "management change". It was also great how Grimnar understood that the GK's hands were being forced because of the Inquisition and acknowledged it was wearing on their souls to do such work. All in all it was a fantastic read and I would recommend it to anyone.

[thade]

 

The defenders and the population weren't all corrupted.

 

I'm not able to find the passages to quote, but I'm 100% sure that both Hyp and the Inquisition mentioned that the populace *was* corrupted, which is the whole reason they couldn't let them leave the planet.

 

It's their job to leave no loose ends; while the populace may not all be (likely wasn't, I suspect) corrupted by the events, it takes too much time and too many resources to check, and human life is cheap. It's safer just to destroy them, which ultimately gets negotiated down in the book: the citizens are sort of imprisoned, but - as I remember it - the IG (who were exposed to demonkind) must be killed. (Mindwiping is expensive.) This is the heart of another conflict in the book.

[Gentlemanloser]

But the IG were *never* part of Logans original deal, and therefore can't really be held part and parcel of what happened. 

 

I kinda suspect Logan knew what their fate would be anyway. ;)