Prot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I unfortunately don't have time to do full batreps, but I just came off a couple nights of getting games in where I could. Most notably I tried to be honest with myself and so called start with a clean slate... that is no preconceptions on what something SHOULD look like, and just see what I can do. I will say the Ravenwing 'felt' more traditional because it requires no outside help. I took a few shots at the RW Strike Force, included two formations, the Overwatch/Interceptor Attack formation? And the Silence Squadron with the 3 flyers. I typically put the entire RW Strike force in reserve, and put the Attack squadron with Shroud, and 3 Typhoon speeders on the table, and of course rolled for the Silence squadron. ++++++++++++++++++++++ For the Deathwing, I took a list I would consider traditional, with Belial, Libby, DW Command squad, one squad of DW Knights, and 3 DW Termie squads. The only non-Deathwing unit was the Support Squad of RW with 3 attack bikes and the Vengeance. +++++++++++++++++++++ Both lists were incredible. They actually surpassed my expectations. The tweaks seem.... small, some point adjustments, and minor rules tweaks but on the table I actually came to feel... sheepish about it. In short, I decimated my opponents. The Deathwing, tapping off 12" on double Jinking units like that is ridiculously good. A shooty army honestly has almost no chance against this. Within a turn I am turbo'd out... even one game was the 'long way' (IE: Short Edges/Maelstrom) and I am RIGHT in his face. The turbo's + 12" no deviation is ridiculous because it feels like no area is untouchable. Then Belial takes his beefy Command squad and in both games found a very high priority spot and as long as I "respect the inch" as I like to say, he goes anywhere. It always makes opponents roll their eyes, because they know it's over for that target unit. Deathwing is mega aggressive, and is such a mass of 2+ without the 'junky' stuff... with that formation you can go straight to the meat, and repeat it to your wishes, and just plop it all on the table. The Ravenwing Support is the beauty that people are calling 'impure' in the Deathwing. They are so survivable, yet after they let the pay load off, they're 3 Multi Meltas and Plasma that can't be denied.... some one ALWAYS tries to back track your termies by dropping behind you.... well that's going to hurt now, because of the melta/plasma fast units, that are also gold in Maelstrom for those rear objectives you know your termies can't slog to. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Ravenwing felt worse for my opponent. Even with all the cover denial, which I thought was a killer in one game.... orders/Wyverns/Deathstrike, I thought it was going to be bad in that one.... but it wasn't. As a result of this I have to think 8th is going to kill Jink. In all honesty, double jink is just stupid. I can't even play this again... free turbo jink was also incredible. The overwatch/interceptor formation... also amazing. At this point I went from feeling the change was subtle, but that doesn't mean it isn't significant. I'm curious to hear how other peoples experiences are. Let me know. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA_WarM Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 How about the Ravenwing Slience Squadron? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4108662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 How about the Ravenwing Slience Squadron? Funny you mention that.... Because it was the part of the experiment I would say was least successful. Not bad, but the power of the rest of the formations was incredible, so this was 'so-so'. The flyers are improved, but I think my formation ran at 505 points for both games of RW. I do think the missile lock is great, and the strafing is always great. I had trouble getting real mileage out of the Dark Talon but that could have been the fact the RW are in everyone's face so incredibly fast. Comparing it to the Ultra variant is interesting... the Nephilims vs the Stormtalons are similar in a lot of ways... the big difference is it feels like the Stormraven is definitely 'the' vehicle killer compared to the Dark Talon. It's fun, but at.. 505 pts, I can't recommend it in RW because you need those bodies on the ground and you will take a lot of casualties against no cover save armies, and the numbers piling on the ground makes a massive difference. That's just me though... it was a fun formation and re-rolling reserves is huge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4108676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzhands Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Yep played my ravenwing in three games this weekend and felt bad each time. Vs nids my support squad kill many carnefexs. Tabled scatter bike elder for the first time and a stasis bomb meant his wraith knight didn't get a hit in before my imperial knight destroyed it. Again support squad (and black knights) finished off an imperial knight in first two turns of final game Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4108796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Yea it's incredible the difference I am finding so far in just the most subtle of changes... slight points change, double jink, really good formation... great support structure in sub-formations, the additional dude in the command squad, and even the replacement of my specials in RW squads towards Grav guns.... I honestly didn't think it would be this good. I am thinking Tau come out and completely 'magic bullet' it or something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4108811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrkul Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I honestly didn't think it would be this good. I am thinking Tau come out and completely 'magic bullet' it or something. Thats pretty much Tau in general. New codex wont change that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4109223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Springemann Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Now that you mentioned it my first game was against Tau and I played my RW and he really hated my rerollable Jink as well as my Support Squadron. I made sure to take out as many of the marker drones as possible. I did lose the game because I forgot about the objective but I love the new Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4109267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Oh no, Deathwing is dead!! Then comes Prot and "tables" an opponent with mostly terminators and a few bikes. Maybe the Nay-sayers start playing instead of just theorizing doom. ;) Prot, did you have any ;Darksrouds or LS Vengeance? if so, how were they? And the Nephifail can drop this name already or does he keep it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4109543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Now that you mentioned it my first game was against Tau and I played my RW and he really hated my rerollable Jink as well as my Support Squadron. I made sure to take out as many of the marker drones as possible. I did lose the game because I forgot about the objective but I love the new Codex. Yes, play the objective, because to be quite frank you have full table ownership, offense, and defense with this formation. Your only downfall is lack of ObSec. Oh no, Deathwing is dead!! Then comes Prot and "tables" an opponent with mostly terminators and a few bikes. Maybe the Nay-sayers start playing instead of just theorizing doom. Prot, did you have any ;Darksrouds or LS Vengeance? if so, how were they? And the Nephifail can drop this name already or does he keep it? Lucifer, you know I wouldn't exaggerate this, and I have no ulterior motivation either. Right now I feel the way they 'combo'd' the wings is incredibly powerful. There was always the possiblity of placing some Deathwing with various tricks, with minimal deviation, but this subformation is just so... ridiculously survivable, and had the exact mobility that Deathwing suffers from. I would just say this to the Deathwing purist, and this is my heartfelt advice: play the DW detachment, add the subformation they recommend. On paper you're going to think this is 'average' at best. When you plop a full wall of DW in front of your opponent, split fire, wall of shields, + Belial in a seriously potent precision target.... You feel like you got a free turn. That's the best way I can put it; it feels like you get a free turn. Before you could manipulate this a little bit, but it's perfected now. The problem before was taking a mini- formation like I did to support the Deathwing could die... now double jink is just crazy. SO I did 3 attack bikes and the Vengeance. Now add in that you just blasted up the table, and throw on 12"... in my test games I know my opponents weren't sure exactly what to expect... but then nearly a full wall of 25+ termies is sitting in perfect positioning... he's got 1 turn to kick my teeth in. Just fyi, I never felt this sense of over powering an opponent so quickly with Grey Knights termies, just because it's so hard to get a turn 2 exact placement factor. The Ravenwing Factor is HUGE here though........... Because the investment is minimal, but the pay off is massive. The Ravenwing are THE setup factor, and when your DW are in play, they have phase two.... grabbing objectives, special unit harrassment, and they do this VERY well now with minimal cost. So I would say, please Deathwing players, just put aside your objections for a couple of games, and just give this a shot. The subtleties presented here actually helps negate MANY of the huge complaints I have about terminators because of the perfect reserves on top of the perfect placement. All that's really left for you here is figure out your favorite HQ, and your favorite unit comp. (* I took a Deathwing banner + command +Apoth and Libby and the squad was tanking everything with 2 shield hammers in front of Belial with FnP... It just gets a bit better when nearly the whole army is exactly where you want it.) ++++++++++++++++++++ Ravenwing: I think this is nearly ridiculous... I know this is going to tick people off, but I really feel that if your opponent isn't WELL prepared with anti-cover, this is just ridiculously good. The "problem" with Ravenwing is: 1. It shoots VERY well and is well costed now 2. It Overwatches super good - the overwatch is so good, plus with the attack squad supporting overwatch bonus, it feels like a 'free' shooting phase. 3. It assaults 'okay', but cannot be held in assault. 4. Free Jink against certain opponents is a subtle, but if properly done, you can deny a flank easily, decimating that area the next turn. 5. The subtle change to the Shroud: I denied 4 overwatches in one game. *6. Last but not least, and this pertains to both DW and RW. The most crazy Interromancy I kept pulling off at a whooping Warp Charge 1: Aversion (I think it's called).... this is something you will have your opponents hating. That Astra guy is going to hit 10 bikes with his deathstrike? Or Wraithguard? Anything with templates? Aversion is so easy my opponents hated this. I must have had to re-read this to my opponents 2-3 times as it just seemed 'wrong' at WC1. 24" coming off a Lib Biker or a perfectly placed DW libby. I never, ever in any game got off the big ability Mind Wipe, even chucking 6 dice at it. lol (WC 3, can nerf a squad for the game on leadership) But I never had nor wanted to take multi-libs. Aversion is a steal though. Interromancy is just icing on the cake. It's just pretty darn good period.... One game I had a full plasma squad in front of my deep striking command squad with Belial, I think my opponent thought he could protect his juicy center with this big plasma squad, but with Aversion, you can literally say, I'll worry about you later.... hit them with Aversion, then shoot at what you really want. Wow... just WC 1? What were they thinking? Objective Cards Some of these cards... one opponent called them 'free' points. I wasn't sure when I started... but the cards are maybe the -best- I've seen for army specific cards. IF you are playing Deathwing, and you get that 'moral' card for your army where you predict the turn you can discard it? That's free. That's massive points (if you get it in turn 1-2). Many (not all) of the cards are extremely do-able where I feel many of the other army specific cards are so-so. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ Nephilim: It's probably right where it needs to be. Not awesome, not bad. For me, missile lock + the improvement to missiles + double jink... it's entirely usable now. The only issue (Same with space marines) is using the formation is a big, big chunk. ( I think mine came to 505pts in the games I used it.) It's good, and feels like a good tool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4109841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Thanks for the in-depth, Prot. I'm still waiting for my dex, can't wait to try this new DeathRaven... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4110635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orkinstein Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Thanks for sharing your experience, Prot. I am a very new beginner. So would you mind give me some advise for gears of DW Termie squads? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4115714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellSpokenMan Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Never thought of Aversion that way. No blast weapons fire at all. No Wyverns, no Vindicators, no Eradicators. Nasty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4115726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Prof- just to clarify, that's a single attack sqd? My concern with this set up has been survivability. If they can last even 2 turns, this is huge. Have you tried a more balanced approach (like half RW/half DW)? What points were you playing at? My local scene at 1750. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4115744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurieus Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 hey Prot, what points were you playing ? Can we see that tasty list of yours ? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4115992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillyfish Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 It sounds like we are the army of synergies even more so than last edition. It also sounds incredibly potent. I had noticed aversion and could identify a few potential uses for it too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4116193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 What's your deathwing squads loadouts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4116213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olataro Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Just had my matchup against chaos today. I was using a Ravenwing force. Long story short? We are no match against hell drakes, demon prince, oblits and so on. The helldrakes in particular were nasty. Killed off all 12 black knights in one go. The remaining bikers were picked off and I kinda feel that this new codex doesn't bring in anything new to us that is usable. A bit disappointed with the army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4120770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurieus Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Just had my matchup against chaos today. I was using a Ravenwing force. Long story short? We are no match against hell drakes, demon prince, oblits and so on. The helldrakes in particular were nasty. Killed off all 12 black knights in one go. The remaining bikers were picked off and I kinda feel that this new codex doesn't bring in anything new to us that is usable. A bit disappointed with the army. Obviously multiple Helldrakes are the bane of the Ravenwing, doesn't mean the army is bad :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4121293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I saw Team0comp's matchup between DAs and Tau, and Reese (the DA player) dang near steamrolled the Tau player even though he had 3 riptides. He even took a bunch of scouts too, like 30-40. But his Black Knights did amazing and so did the support squad. I'd like to see your list Prot :) all those weeks ago, I set up that thread on the SamStar, and I'm curious if you'd give it a test run. It has Sammael in a RW command squad with an apothecary and a Darkshroud following behind. The unit has Sam to tank wounds, not to mention a 2+ rerollable cover save from jinking next to the Darkshroud. They also have plasma for days and a lot of cc clout between rending Corvus hammers and Sam's sword. If you'd like to go extra hard, take the support squad to back them up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4121466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Helldrakes are the bane of many armies not just Ravenwing, specially in multiple. no need to feel disappointed. But the the trick for Ravenwing is to get under them fast so they can't torch you and you can at least shoot their rear armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4121500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Helldrakes are the bane of many armies not just Ravenwing, specially in multiple. no need to feel disappointed. But the the trick for Ravenwing is to get under them fast so they can't torch you and you can at least shoot their rear armour. You can use those shiny new Nephilims we have all got stored aware somewhere ;) Or you could use the new support squad with Interceptor and three TMLs....:evil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310388-quick-ravenwingdeathwing-games/#findComment-4121604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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