HenricusTyranicus Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hey Guys, I'm a Black Templar/Guard player, generally using them together as allies. My Guard have always taken a back seat in the battles to the Templars, seeing how I had like 400 points of guard and well over three times that of Templars. However, I have just bought another 35 guardsmen, and they will be an ever more important part of my force in the future. I'm trying to figure out if I should run them as individual squads, or as one giant squad of conscripts/regular guards. Here's how I see the tradeoffs of combining: Good: Only one order needed for many men. Psychic buffs get massive mileage. Lots of causalities needed to force a morale check. Allows strategic grouping to help save characters and special weapons. Can make for a scary assault force. Save points on vox casters and other unit wide equipment. Bad: All troops have to follow the same orders. All troops stuck in combat once charged. Sweeping advances hurt a lot. All troops have to fire at the same target. Blasts and templates can really sting. Not good for holding objectives. What has your guys experience been? How would you recommend kitting them out? (Bearing in mind I still need points for my Templars.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 First thing is to remember its not done in the list building stage - building a list with it in mind makes it more viable of course but your hand is never forced :) It's essential if you want to blob squad of doom them, yes but you can combine squads without huge penalty even if they weren't intended for it.I prefer my squads operating independently as it gives me more tactical options. Outnumbering the enemy doesn't have to only be in pure model count, plus it can be a great way to dilute the effectiveness of superior units (which is most of them). Deathstars are expensive and inefficient running into 60pt Guardsman squads - even more so when they stand clear of combat only to be surrounded and blasted into pieces :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4108752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Commander Scrymgeour Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The beauty of blobs is that you need fewer priests and have more sergeants to soak up challenges. Also on the charge 60 odd attacks re rolling is hilarious. Killed lucius the eternal and his snark of slaanesh terminator bodyguard last time I used em.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4108809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
morroccomole Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 My two cents are along the lines of WarriorFish's. Having those bodies in five separate squads means one sweeping advance hurts a lot less, and with proper unit placement, you can pump flashlight shots into the unit that just wiped your squad from multiple sides on your turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4108993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenricusTyranicus Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Would your advice differ if you were facing a non assaulty army, like Tau? Also, do you have any tips about making sure your orders are effective when you have multiple squads? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4109066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The same can still apply. The fewer squads you have the easier it is for your opponent to pour fire into them. As for orders, the only way to make them more effective is to take appropriate upgrades and have more units capable of giving orders. Voxes are the obvious choice, but Leadership improvements are also viable :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4109097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 MSU is often the go to tactic for facing Tau, since they can pour such disgusting amounts of fire from a single unit, unless it's target locked (each equipped model fires independently) which is usually only sgts and battlesuits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4109160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBugman Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I've played the Guard a few games before Combining squads and I've not regretted it yet (ok, maybe the one time a Combined Squad routed off the board...guess I'll paint up another Priest). Squads stick around that much more and I'm more confident with removing enemy models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4110025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'm not saying don't do it, but there's something to be said for target saturation. Give him more targets than he can shoot or assault. I'm not al that familiar with the rule, but can you split the squad back into it's smaller bits like combat squads or is it stuck that way? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4110049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
morroccomole Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'm not saying don't do it, but there's something to be said for target saturation. Give him more targets than he can shoot or assault. I'm not al that familiar with the rule, but can you split the squad back into it's smaller bits like combat squads or is it stuck that way? The rules just say that they are treated as a single unit for the game, so probably not. Might be worth it if you are playing something like "Purge the Alien," where killpoints add up! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4110263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Combining squads is done at deployment right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4110369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
morroccomole Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Immediately before determining your warlord traits. Which for me is usually after turn 2, because I always forget Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4110470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I prefer combined squads. Why? Because the humble infantry squad sucks ass. They are paper thin, only hit half the time, and they run away if it can't be helped. (However you already knew that because you read 1d4chan tactics). What blob guard squads do is give you an are where it gives bigger buffs. Throw a priest in there an now you've got THE best tarpit. You know how painful it is to kill 50 men in cc. Give them a sanctioned psyker, and order FRFSRF and you've now got a scary unit that can actually hurt things. Sure large blasts hurt, but you've got multiple squads right? Give them lascannons and they won't be leaving an objective. For forward objectives I like using conscripts with a priest. Since they can't have heavy weapons you don't feel bad that you didn't buy them or feel the need to sit. Also if you've got a fifty man blob covering an objective then they can't claim it do to not being close enough to the objective. MUHAHAHA. Beware of tomb blades and hit and run. Also it's not always bad to have everyone follow the same order. Most of them are beneficial to the entire unit besides saying bring it down to a vehicle. I like you am planning on incorporating my guard with my templars. Hope this helps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4110567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenricusTyranicus Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 I prefer combined squads. Why? Because the humble infantry squad sucks ass. They are paper thin, only hit half the time, and they run away if it can't be helped. (However you already knew that because you read 1d4chan tactics). What blob guard squads do is give you an are where it gives bigger buffs. Throw a priest in there an now you've got THE best tarpit. You know how painful it is to kill 50 men in cc. Give them a sanctioned psyker, and order FRFSRF and you've now got a scary unit that can actually hurt things. Sure large blasts hurt, but you've got multiple squads right? Give them lascannons and they won't be leaving an objective. For forward objectives I like using conscripts with a priest. Since they can't have heavy weapons you don't feel bad that you didn't buy them or feel the need to sit. Also if you've got a fifty man blob covering an objective then they can't claim it do to not being close enough to the objective. MUHAHAHA. Beware of tomb blades and hit and run. Also it's not always bad to have everyone follow the same order. Most of them are beneficial to the entire unit besides saying bring it down to a vehicle. I like you am planning on incorporating my guard with my templars. Hope this helps. Thanks! From what I've been seeing here, and what my own experience tells me, I think it's best to run combined squads for Purge the allien and other Eternal war missions, while Malestrom of war missions, it seems like a bunch of cheap campers would be in order. Running combined squads is a bit harder if you're Templars, as you will have fewer psykers to buff the squads, however, if you have no conscience you can just take the Librarius formation as Iron Hands, then laugh up your Necron like invincibility on your guardsmen. I find Templars and Guardsmen synergize fantastically with each other :) If you ever need any tips about running them together, PM me and I'll be glad to help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4111095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 You can't rely on a ten man squad to hold an Objective. But fifty? Fifty will do just fine... Also why are you getting Swept? If you've got a blob o' dudes, put Commissars/Priests in there and Sweeping is but a distant memory. Orders become more effective, and how is compartmentalising their firepower more efficient? They're Guardsmen. Their guns suck. You need fifty just to mildly annoy a squad of Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4111106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Maelstrom definitely use cheap scoring units, MSU will win it, because you can get guardsmen for so cheap. Maelstrom also counts victory points at the end of your turn, so you only need to get to it and end your turn on it. Sure that's easier said than done but that's what artillery and tanks are for. Use those battlecannons or earthshakers to hammer the thing on the objective, move your boys on it and you're golden like a shower. This is where highly mobile mech squads come into play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4111646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterkiler86 Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 With the new restrictions for commissars, grouping is necessary. Plus as stated above multiple sergeants and a need for only one vox caster. I like to run my plantoons as x2 20man squads and x1 ten man. Although I might do a squad of 30 to see how that does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4112002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I'd like to build my platoon up to a 40 man unit so I can run 2 20 man blobs, then I'll have another platoon of 40, that will be all mech. Which leads me to the question, if you combine 2 squads that have taken Chimeras, can you load them into 2 chimeras or are they stuck foot slogging (or using a super heavy transport). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4112091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Nah, they count as a single squad for all purposes, so if they don't fit, they don't fit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4112105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 How, then, are you supposed to get them across the board? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4112285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Shanks' pony ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4112300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenricusTyranicus Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 It's a great combination for parking them behind an Aegis Defense line, then letting some individual squads go capture objectives under their covering fire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4112393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Personally mine advance under the watchful eyes of a Commissar, bearing Meltaguns and Meltabombs. No-one at my local has enough guns to kill 160 Guardsmen. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4112504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 So in a 50 man platoon, would it be sensible to combine squads into 2x 20 man units, and 1x 10 man squad, or 1x 20 and 1x 30? Moving them around on foot to cap objectives? I ask because I'm thinking about adding onto my one platoon and I don't really know how I should do it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4112737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 For a full 50 man Platoon I think 2x20 is best. They are numerous enough to be effective and the 10 man squad can scuttle around as support or nabbing objectives as the larger squads lock down the enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310393-to-combine-or-no/#findComment-4112798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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