why Grav over Melta?

[Brother_Darius]

I've noticed lots of people are talking about picking Grav guns over Melta guns. I'm not sure why.

DA never had them, and I've never come up against them yet. So I looked up the rules for Grav guns.

Isnt the melta usually going to be superior?

 

At Str 8 its going to usualky wound on 2+anyways, and AP is 1 so negates armor.

I would think the number of times Grav is better is limited. PLUS, gravis more expensive

[Olataro]

Rate of fire and doesn't gets hot.

[Solrac]

There's Pros and Cons for both. It really depends on what you intend on targeting or what you foresee there will be more of.

 

Grav Gun's are popular over Meltaguns (especially on Bikes) because of the rate of fire with almost the same affect (depending on your target of course). Grav is superior to Melta in killing monstrous creatures because of their rate of fire as well as the concussive. If the MC survives it will be at Initiative 1 if you decide to assault it.

 

At killing vehicles Grav can still be pretty good as it inflicts and Immobilised result +1 HP and as per the rules if something is already Immobilised it will take an extra HP. Melta still kills vehicles better though in most cases.

 

Grav Cannons are even more popular as they come with the Amp that gives you re-roll wounds and penetration rolls but are very expensive.

[WellSpokenMan]

Personally, I think Grav shines on bikes, where you have the option of taking your bolter shots at Cultists and Guardsmen who aren't worried about Grav and taking the Grav shots at harder targets.  The Grav cannon with the amp has re-rolls to wound, and since it is Salvo, it can fire on the move or right out of a drop pod.  The other heavy weapons cannot.

 

Plasma is the all rounder imo.  Grav is better at taking out heavy infantry and Melta is better at taking out vehicles.  Grav does get an extra shot and has no range limitations on a relentless platform.  That's why people are talking about taking them in a Command Squad.  3 shots a 24"is better than 2 Plasma at 12", or 1 Melta at 12".

[IndigoJack]

I like grav with the ravenwing attack squadron, BS5 grav guns? Yes please!

[aekold]

With the inclusion of attackbike squadrons I think that melta guns on bikers are not worth in anymore. Compare the following:

105 points will give you 3 bikers with dual melta and combi melta

110 points will give you 2 attackbikes with 2 multi melta.

 

1. The bikers have 1 more shot, but only once.

2. The attack bikes have 12" more range, meaning you can stay out of assault longer.

3. If the bikers suffer a single wound they immediately lose effectiveness, unless the sergeant gets shot and even then you might lose your combi melta. You also have to take a morale test. If the attack bikes suffer a single wound, they lose nothing of their effectiveness.

4. Same number of attacks on the charge (6), more attacks in sustained combat (4 against 3).

5. Only moment that the bikers are better in combat is against vehicles/monstrous creatures, due to the greater number of grenades used (3 for the bikers against 2 for the attack bikes).

6. More firepower, 2 multi melta + 2 bolters. The bikers only have 2 melta + 1 bolter.

 

The only reason I would use bikers is when I want gravs.

[Liberame]

pretty much what aekold said, grav for bikers, multi melta for attack bikes.

[Ishagu]

I'd take Grav over Melta on anything other than a dedicated anti-tank unit.

 

Attack bikes with MM are very good Tank Hunters for example.

[Frater Cornelius]

Melta does not kill MC and GMC effectively enough and as has been said is best carried by Tacs or Trikes. Now, if there was a Grav Cannon Trike, then we could talk :D

[deadangel101]

Don't forget you csn take the sacred standard, giving your whole army Relentless and Counter Attack. Combine with grav devastators for lots of shooty fun.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I might be wrong, but doesn't the standard work only for the own unit?

[Lucien Eilam]

Yes. Relentless and Counter-attack are for the bearer's unit only. The Morale and Pinning re-rolls are the only bubble effect.

[SvenONE]

Once you go against grav guns you'll understand why everyone likes them so much.  They really are best on bikes, if Grav-Guns were only rapid-fire rather than salvo there may be a different argument.

 

Olataro nailed it right off the bat, the rate of fire is spectacular when compared to Plasma and Melta, and combined with the range.

 

But it's important to frame the argument.  Grav Weaponry does an incredible job on power and terminator armor type units.  On vehicles it's a bit of a trade off, you'll certainly never blow something up but immobilizing a vehicle can be pretty devastating be it a transport or any type of heavy weapons platform.  You also have a far greater chance for a result at any range.

 

For instance, a multi-melta and melta guns will only ever have a shot at an immobilized result at 1"-12" and 1"-6" respectively against an AV14 vehicle, and they're only 1 shot.  Where as a grav gun has the chance to immobilize it with more chances at up to 18".

 

A grav gun bike squad has an effective range of 30".  If you roll with a combi-grav, you're going to dump 9 shots of Grav weaponry into a vehicle... you're most likely going to immobilize it.  Later on you can just maneuver out of range of its guns or drive up and plant a melta bomb on it to finish it off.

[Azrael Jiraco]

Is spamming attack squads with double grav a competitive option, do you think?

[Frater Cornelius]

Is spamming attack squads with double grav a competitive option, do you think?

 

If that is the only thing you will do, then White Scars will do it better due to having Skiller Rider on their basic bikes as well as Objective Secured and better support for their bikes. However, including them amongst other things like MM Trikes, BK, Tacs and so forth is a good choice, albeit not my personal one.

[WellSpokenMan]

Is spamming attack squads with double grav a competitive option, do you think?

For 15 points more you can just take RWBKs, so no, probably not.  Getting some extra wounds to protect those Grav guns would seem like a better option imo.

[notmattlythgoe]

 

Is spamming attack squads with double grav a competitive option, do you think?

 

If that is the only thing you will do, then White Scars will do it better due to having Skiller Rider on their basic bikes as well as Objective Secured and better support for their bikes. However, including them amongst other things like MM Trikes, BK, Tacs and so forth is a good choice, albeit not my personal one.

 

 

With the Attack Squad you are getting BS 5 grav though.

[Frater Cornelius]

But you pay extra for RW bikes and you need LS. For two RWAS I can get three WS Bike groups with dual Grav and possibly even combi-grav, depending on Speeder cost.

Of all the things that make RW the superior SM bikers, I do not think the regular bikes are one of those.

[FatherTurin]

I like the idea of the ravenwing attack squadron as a toolbox unit that can handle most threats (grav guns for TEQ, MC, etc., multi-melta for vehicles, typhoon for blobs or vehicles), but the unit I just described is around 250 points depending on what you put on the sgt. The buffed BS helps, but I think the real value of the squad shows when you field Lion's Blade or otherwise mixed wing. The extra range on the no-scatter for deathwing could be spectacular.

 

As for the original question, I think melta still has its uses, particularly on a non-relentless model or in combi-melta form on a sergeant. This frees up a special weapon to be plasma or grav and still gives some surprise anti-armor.

 

On a relentless platform, grav is strictly superior (IMHO). A bike squad with 2 grav guns puts out six shots at range 18. Statistically that is 2-3 dead terminators, or an immobilized and a hull point on any non-flier vehicle in the game (not accounting for cover saves or other ++ saves on vehicles). Same squad with 2 meltas is 2 shots at range 12. At that range you still need a 6 to glance AV 14. It's only at range 6 or less that you can reliably pen any ground armor. Granted, 2 meltas at that range gives you a good chance to at least immobilize, if not explode the vehicle.

 

2 other things: grav guns are far better on overwatch, and if you really want to have some armor busting in your back pocket, you can still give the RW sergeant melta bombs. At range 6 you can charge more often than not anyway, and packing grav guns on the bikes gives you the grav gun shots, an assault with melta bombs, and a 66% chance to hit and run away and do it all over again if you have to.

 

Edit for disclaimer: this is almost entirely theory. Will let you know if/when I get a chance to try it out.

[Berzul]

Good thing I had saved the grav guns from my old tactical squads. Ive just placed apart the bitz to make 2 bikers with this new weapons. Should prove interesting :D

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So Ravenwing are relentless correct, so you get full shots with the grav gun? I'm liking this grav thing. Especially given that I'm likely to face lot's of 2+ saves, 

[Liberame]

Yep, so 3 shots at 18" range, combined with your 12" move and scout move, you can threaten a lot of targets

[MithrilForge]

well after i finish my Ad-mech army i need to revisit my Ravenwing(allies) it seems,although where the hell do i get some grav guns from i haven't bought new Tac guys in years!!

Mithril

[Ishagu]

So Ravenwing are relentless correct, so you get full shots with the grav gun? I'm liking this grav thing. Especially given that I'm likely to face lot's of 2+ saves,

Aside from being Relentless, bikers are a great platform for Grav because they also have bolters to take care of trash that grav is ineffective against.

[Liberame]

Buy grav guns from spellcrow