Sammael : is it worth taking the Jetbike version now?

[Master Avoghai]

I've just seen that, in addition to the on flight attacks (that could be great to counter invisibility btw) and the jink re-roll, Sammael now keep the iron Halo on his speeder...

 

Combined with A14, doesn't it make the LS more valuable than Jetbike?

[SnakeChisler]

Not really its down to your personal taste and the meta in your area

 

I'm currently building the speeder but probably won't use it, reason being we have Necrons in our group, also Sam will have to Tank some Invun's now the PFG is gone  

[Master Avoghai]

Having not many necron around there I fail to see what is the statistical problem. Needing a 6 to penetrate AND passing the inv save means you need 12 HITS to hope dropping 1HP...

 

On BS4, it means 18 shoots for one HP, so it's not even saturation here it's oversaturation to shoot him down....

 

Is there any bonus I ignore (yes there is the 1hit =2hits on a 6 but it is limitated on special weapons and units so is it really reliable?

[Wraith776]

I am underwhelmed a little with the speeder version. I prefer the plasma cannon and storm bolter, which he can both fire, over the twin-linked assault cannon & heavy bolter.

Sure the pseudo chariot attacks are nice but I prefer my expensive character to be able to hit back in close combat rather than just hit things he moves over.

To me their pros and cons are:

 

Speeder:

• More survivable against small arms

• Deep strike (very situational)

• Ignores cover on chariot attacks

• Only speeder to have a 4++

 

Jetbike:

• More survivable Vs heavy weapons with Eternal Warrior

• Stronger offensive weaponry (IMO)

• Makes better use of the warlord trait

• Synergises better with biker Ravenwing

• Can overwatch

• Can perform well in CC with Ap2 and Ws6

• Other models can use his leadership

[TheFinisher4Ever]

There is one thing keeping the Sableclaw from being an auto include, and that is the AV10 on the rear. Which means pretty much anything can kill it in assault. Throw in the fact that it can't overwatch and youve got a very expensive unit that is very weak to assault.

[Wraith776]

My point about having an expensive Hq that can't fight in assault. Get caught by most anything, lets say an eldar jetbike, then you're gonna die quick even with that 4++.

[SvenONE]

I thought Sableclaw always had the 4++

 

I think Sableclaw seems like a perfectly fine ranged support unit.  Quite honestly if AV10 is a concern because of the close combat, something is wrong.  Unless he's immobilized, I don't see how a 12" movement unit with 24" and 36" weapons is ever going to find itself in assault, especially when it still has a 4++ save to protect it.  The 2HP is a drag, should at least be 3, or if he got some sort of Deathwing Vehicle equivalent so he doesn't get blown up.

 

I think if anything, the real concerns would be vs Necrons, Dark Eldar, or Grav Gun crazy Space Marine lists where immobilization/glancing hits don't care about your AV anyway.

[ValourousHeart]

I am underwhelmed a little with the speeder version.....

 

Speeder:....

 

Jetbike:.....

Personally I think that both the Speeder and Jetbike have moments where they shine, but the meta you play in means you may never see one of them shine.

If you don't see both shine in your area, it means that the players in your area are using a painfully restricted list of available codexes.

I recommend that everyone try the other codexes because they are a lot of fun, and you might just win a few games because people won't be expecting them.

 

Just also wanted to clarify a few points you made here, it might be a matter of perspective (meta differences), buy they seem a little off.

 

Speeder

1. Immune to shooting of S7 or less.

2. Both versions can Deep Strike (I agree, very situation)

3. Does ignore cover, but also auto hits d3+1 times

4. I think there might be some Tau, Eldar or DEldar that also have an invl on their skimmers, but yes very rare.

5. Twin Linked BS5 is equal to BS10, which means he misses maybe 1 shot a turn, but not usually

6. AC has the potential to pen AV14, not my go to solution for AV14 but it is a nice little pip in his favor

7. Ignores 4+ armor, which includes almost everything except marines (any flavor)

 

Jetbike

1. Agreed he is likely to survive longer if only ever shot with heavy weapons, however the jetbike (and any bikes you run with him) can be wounded by as little as S2 weapons.

(Last I checked everyone in an IG list has at least S3 weapons, everyone!)

It is easy to create a situation where both versions, if persecuted, can be removed in a single turn.

 

2a. PC ignores marine armor, but is not able to snap fire.  Can potentially deal with AV13, can not deal with AV14 at all.

(not expecting either version to be on tank hunting duty, but you have to consider AV13 and AV14 transports when measuring offensive capability for 2 characters that really shine at deleting infantry squads)

 

2b. PC vs AC: the range is irrelevant as the unit the jetbike is with will be limited to 24 or 18 inch. The blast will probably hit 2-3, on rare occasions vs inexperienced players you will get 7 TDA models under the template.

 

3. As they both have the same warlord trait and they both have to sacrifice their offensive power to make use of it, it is questionable who makes better use of it more often.  You are probably referring to the fact that the Jetbike can drag a squad along with him.  However speeder squadrons of 3+ models also get that ability even without Sammie present.

 

4. Synergies is an odd term here.  I think what you mean to say is that an optimized list with the Jetbike includes lots of bike squads.  Whereas an optimized list with the speeder includes lots of speeder squadrons.

 

5. Err... you mean with the 2 shots from his storm bolter?  Ok, I'm still waiting for the FAQ to explain why the speeder has Grim Resolve, we'll address this later if they say he can overwatch like Longstrike can.

 

6. I believe you are stacking the deck if you only look at the CC prowess of the Jetbike and compare it to the performance of the speeder only in the assault phase.  The vector strike is essentially the same as the jetbike getting to charge in, swing and then Hit and Run before the enemy unit gets to strike.  As I said at the beginning I believe that they are both competent at infantry removal, it is just a matter of what you typically face.  I think that between all the phases where they can each do damage you'll find that they are able to remove a similar amount of models.

 

7. Agreed, the speeder doesn't have a leadership value to share.

 

There is one thing keeping the Sableclaw from being an auto include, and that is the AV10 on the rear. Which means pretty much anything can kill it in assault. Throw in the fact that it can't overwatch and youve got a very expensive unit that is very weak to assault.

The same argument could be made for anything with a Predator chase.  Yet no one avoids taking a vindicator because it has AV10 rear armor.  And yes I used the Vindicator because it is played more aggressively and doesn't just park its butt up against the table edge like a predator does.

 

If people were really concerned about AV10 rears they would never field Rhinos or Razorbacks.  But that isn't the case, they field those all the time.

 

The reason I feel that the AV10 rear is an issue has more to do with the fact that people are just not very good with speeders in general.

[Elios Harg]

The bike can tank for squads, has +3" charge range and can give skilled rider to standard bikes and attack bikes.

 

Sableclaw has AV14, a 3+(2+ near a shroud) re-roll or 4++. If he dies, your opponent has some long range, high strength ignores cover weaponry or you did something wrong.

 

Sammael is far more useful in any army that includes bikes of any flavor. Sableclaw is best if you do not want to give up slay the warlord.

[Brother Turok]

Sorry, double post due to my phone

[Brother Turok]

I think sableclaw is too fragile with armor 10 in the rear and 2 hp. I just played a salamander army that runs deepstriking drop pods with 10 man combat squaded sternguard. They are all armed with re-rollable meltas/combimeltas.

 

Someone deepstrikes anything behind you (including assault cannon terminators), you could be in trouble. Remember that rapid firing bolters could kill Sammy from the rear.

 

In this alpha and beta strike day and age (not to mention how shooty 7th is) he is too fraingile... 2+ re-rollable jink? Take enough rear Bolger shots and you are going to roll 1's. Remember terminator squads falling to imperial guard fire or dying after they get tar pitted by kroot?

 

Jetbike has ew, multiple wounds, is synergistic with ravenwing, etc. I think he's the way to go.

[IanSturrock]

If your enemy has anything that can deep strike, it should be trivially easy for you to keep Sableclaw's rear armour pointing to the edge of the board. It's incredibly powerful in the current version -- more powerful than it has ever been since I started playing 7 years ago. The jetbike is also seriously good. I don't think a "best" selection can be made in a vacuum -- you'd need to consider what else you were bringing and what synergies that created. Both are potentially hard to kill and packing a punch, but both are also expensive and require some finesse to get the most out of them considering that high cost. Neither is an auto-add to every list.

[ValourousHeart]

My point about having an expensive Hq that can't fight in assault. Get caught by most anything, lets say an eldar jetbike, then you're gonna die quick even with that 4++.

You do understand that almost everything in the Eldar codex does not get a save vs his shooting?

Not saying they can't get to him... but it isn't like they start on top of him either.

 

And I find it humorous that the people that make the one liner dismissals always set up the opponent of the speeder as some sort of tactical genius.

But assume that the player that brought the speeder must be on the level of a non-functional autistic.

 

Has it not occurred to you that we might be aware that he can't fight in CC, and would at least have the competence to try to avoid driving him into CC.

That we would take steps to make it harder for you to reach him, or at least punish you for trying to reach him.

 

I thought Sableclaw always had the 4++

 

I think Sableclaw seems like a perfectly fine ranged support unit.  Quite honestly if AV10 is a concern because of the close combat, something is wrong.  Unless he's immobilized, I don't see how a 12" movement unit with 24" and 36" weapons is ever going to find itself in assault, especially when it still has a 4++ save to protect it.  The 2HP is a drag, should at least be 3, or if he got some sort of Deathwing Vehicle equivalent so he doesn't get blown up.

 

I think if anything, the real concerns would be vs Necrons, Dark Eldar, or Grav Gun crazy Space Marine lists where immobilization/glancing hits don't care about your AV anyway.

 

He has always had the 4++.... Well at least since 4th.

I don't have my 3rd or 2nd edition codexes any more.

You are right about there being a lot of alternative ways to deal with armor other than just high strength weapons.

 

However I have not found that the new alternatives have complemented the old standbys in lists, they tend to replace them.

It isn't like you see a list with all of the options mixed in to deal with armor, hoards and heavy infantry.

 

What you tend to see if that if the player knows they will be facing a lot of armor, they'll bring melta or lance.

If they know they will be dealing with a lot of 2+/3+ saves or MC, they bring plasma or other high rate of fire weapons.

If they are not sure, then they bring grav weapons or their codexes equivalent to the middle child.

 

But the over all availability of units in a given list that can deal with AV14 hasn't really increased.

[Master Avoghai]

I think sableclaw is too fragile with armor 10 in the rear and 2 hp. I just played a salamander army that runs deepstriking drop pods with 10 man combat squaded sternguard. They are all armed with re-rollable meltas/combimeltas.

Someone deepstrikes anything behind you (including assault cannon terminators), you could be in trouble. Remember that rapid firing bolters could kill Sammy from the rear.

In this alpha and beta strike day and age (not to mention how shooty 7th is) he is too fraingile... 2+ re-rollable jink? Take enough rear Bolger shots and you are going to roll 1's. Remember terminator squads falling to imperial guard fire or dying after they get tar pitted by kroot?

Jetbike has ew, multiple wounds, is synergistic with ravenwing, etc. I think he's the way to go.

The salamander thing is very situational, and sorry to say that but when you know that your opponent has some meltas with TL in DP, you don't deploy Sammael in a way that the DP could deep strike safely or with a line of sight on your rear.

 

Don't also forget that you can keep him in reserve and make him outflank if you really fear those alpha strike army.

[Elios Harg]

A re-rollable 2+ is far more effective than merely a 2+.

 

If the super combi-melta salamanders deepstrike behind Sableclaw with a Dark shroud in stealth range, (assuming they are in melta range which would be fairly easy to deny) they are going to average doing 0.25 HPs to Sableclaw. Additionally, they would only have an 12% chance as a unit to actually do something as severe as immobilize or destroy Sableclaw with the melta volley.

 

If they are not in melta range, they are only averaging .21 HPs and have only an 8% chance to immobilize or worse.

 

Meanwhile, if the likely RWSS that you are running alongside Sableclaw turns its guns to bear on those really expensive sternguard they are pretty much toast.

 

 

I actually think Grav weapons, from any direction are the scariest proposition for taking out Sableclaw barring ignore cover stuff. If Sableclaw gets immobilized it is done for. No jinking and no way to avoid a charge. This makes Devastators or centurions a lot more effective at killing Sableclaw than sternguard melta. Four gravcannons will almost certainly get at least one successful result against Sableclaw.

 

So, yeah, the AV10 rear armor doesn't bother me. And the best ways to effectively kill Sableclaw are more expensive than it and likely going to die the following turn if you are fielding a RWSS next to it.

 

My recommendation is to treat Sableclaw as a quasi-independent character. It needs to be running in the midst of a shroud led support squadron. Sure, it doesn't protect him from being targeted, but it can act as a shield against melta and assaults and makes people think really hard about what they should be shooting at.

[ValourousHeart]

I think sableclaw is too fragile with armor 10 in the rear and 2 hp. I just played a salamander army that runs deepstriking drop pods with 10 man combat squaded sternguard. They are all armed with re-rollable meltas/combimeltas.

 

Someone deepstrikes anything behind you (including assault cannon terminators), you could be in trouble. Remember that rapid firing bolters could kill Sammy from the rear.

 

In this alpha and beta strike day and age (not to mention how shooty 7th is) he is too fraingile... 2+ re-rollable jink? Take enough rear Bolger shots and you are going to roll 1's. Remember terminator squads falling to imperial guard fire or dying after they get tar pitted by kroot?

 

Jetbike has ew, multiple wounds, is synergistic with ravenwing, etc. I think he's the way to go.

 

I think your concern for the speeders performance has more to do with how the typical player doesn't really understand how to use a lot of speeders.

Or more specifically how to defend an army that doesn't have a home base.

 

If you are playing a pure ravenwing list that is predominantly bikes with speeder support, you already have the gist of how this works.

Your primary damage dealer is your bikes, you use your black knights and sacrificial speeders to defend those bikes, and keep them shooting.

 

It is very similar with a speeder heavy ravenwing except that your circles of protection over lap more.

You want to keep your speed advantage, so the top priority is to eliminate anything that is faster than you, or that can get to you quickly and tie you up.

Second priority is to get everyone out of their transports, most armies tend to be slower on foot, also most of their mobile heavy weapons tend to be on vehicles.

 

Third priority is to secure the flanks, don't let them get around you.  This is where you are dealing with the deepstrikers.  Before you end your movement phase, look at the board and ask yourself this question.  "If I were fighting against myself, where would you put I DS and outflanking units?"  I guarantee that if you at least think about that question, you will either prevent or capitalize on that event.

 

If your enemy has anything that can deep strike, it should be trivially easy for you to keep Sableclaw's rear armour pointing to the edge of the board. It's incredibly powerful in the current version -- more powerful than it has ever been since I started playing 7 years ago. The jetbike is also seriously good. I don't think a "best" selection can be made in a vacuum -- you'd need to consider what else you were bringing and what synergies that created. Both are potentially hard to kill and packing a punch, but both are also expensive and require some finesse to get the most out of them considering that high cost. Neither is an auto-add to every list.

I agree, you should know what your opponent has in reserves and the likely hood of it coming in next turn.

You should also consider where the most likely place they would put it when it does come in.

You might be wrong, but not nearly as often as you would be if you never thought of it.

[ValourousHeart]

A re-rollable 2+ is far more effective than merely a 2+.

 

If the super combi-melta salamanders deepstrike behind Sableclaw with a Dark shroud in stealth range, (assuming they are in melta range which would be fairly easy to deny) they are going to average doing 0.25 HPs to Sableclaw. Additionally, they would only have an 12% chance as a unit to actually do something as severe as immobilize or destroy Sableclaw with the melta volley.

 

If they are not in melta range, they are only averaging .21 HPs and have only an 8% chance to immobilize or worse.

 

Meanwhile, if the likely RWSS that you are running alongside Sableclaw turns its guns to bear on those really expensive sternguard they are pretty much toast.

 

 

I actually think Grav weapons, from any direction are the scariest proposition for taking out Sableclaw barring ignore cover stuff. If Sableclaw gets immobilized it is done for. No jinking and no way to avoid a charge. This makes Devastators or centurions a lot more effective at killing Sableclaw than sternguard melta. Four gravcannons will almost certainly get at least one successful result against Sableclaw.

 

So, yeah, the AV10 rear armor doesn't bother me. And the best ways to effectively kill Sableclaw are more expensive than it and likely going to die the following turn if you are fielding a RWSS next to it.

 

My recommendation is to treat Sableclaw as a quasi-independent character. It needs to be running in the midst of a shroud led support squadron. Sure, it doesn't protect him from being targeted, but it can act as a shield against melta and assaults and makes people think really hard about what they should be shooting at.

 

Hey guys,

 

I am just trying to get you to think about using Sableclaw, I do not expect to change the overall view of the gaming community.

At the start of this a lot of you would have thought that the speeder was never worth taking over the jetbike.... well don't you think that would also have been the opinion of the guy with the DP Sternguard?

 

Let's assume that this is a competent and intelligent player.

 

First off why would he target Sableclaw when he was probably in melta range of the Darkshroud?

Wouldn't the Darkshroud be a much more high valued target to your opponent?

 

Second if there is a Darkshroud near by Sableclaw, wouldn't there be a RWSS attached to it?

You get to intercept before he gets to shoot.

Why didn't you intercept those Sternguard?

 

And third, if we are still assuming he is a smart player, why would he DS his 10 man sternguard next to a unit that might have 6 assault cannons that can intercept.

[Master Sindiferous]

@V-Heart -> I'm out of likes, but just know I am agreeing with you 100% when it comes to tactically using speeders.  The few times I have thrown a speeders support squad on the board I use them to fly the flanks of the enemy using Speeders with ACs or Typhoons to drop missiles on Eldar and Tau.  I can usually keep them in the fight until I am ready to sacrifice them..

 

However, I am starting to follow more of your RW fighting philosophy.  I'm not a stalker by any means, but I am enjoying your RW posts and can tell you have run them quite a bit.  I used to run majority DW force with IK in 6th edition, but getting RW out of the closet and building bikes.  After this discussion my RWAS box will get the Sable Claw treatment on the included speeder and I may hit you up for some additional insight.

 

Thanks for the great advice.

 

Never Forget! Never Forgive!

[Kewl Imp]

I like sammy on a bike better. The twin linked AC/HB is can be nice to clear away infantry but the plasma cannon with its AP2 is a better choice overall. Can't glance a Land Raider but you use your other speeders to pop those. In close combat I have had a lot of success overall with Sammael. I haven't played with him in sableclaw yet but I intend to.

[Kr80gZ]

Played him in Sableclaw vs Chaos Marines last night.  Game went to Turn 7 and  he was the last model I had left on the board but only had 1 HP left (due to sneaky Plague Marine shooting plasma in the rear!).  He jinked all shooting with ease (lost the Darkshroud Turn 3) 

 

but....

 

I didn't know what to do with him!  :/  Flew around shooting stuff and hitting things with the sword, but that was about it.. :/  Felt a bit...lost.. I suppose.

 

I'm keen to see him tanking in a 10 bike Command Squad with an Apothecary... next week, maybe.  :)

[aura_enchanted]

Played him in Sableclaw vs Chaos Marines last night. Game went to Turn 7 and he was the last model I had left on the board but only had 1 HP left (due to sneaky Plague Marine shooting plasma in the rear!). He jinked all shooting with ease (lost the Darkshroud Turn 3)

 

but....

 

I didn't know what to do with him! :/ Flew around shooting stuff and hitting things with the sword, but that was about it.. :/ Felt a bit...lost.. I suppose.

 

I'm keen to see him tanking in a 10 bike Command Squad with an Apothecary... next week, maybe. :)

sable is a bit of a terror or flanking vehicle, bring him on the flank with a vengeance and some typhoons, break everyone's face in with some heavy ordinance,

 

Or use him as a terror weapon against chaffe like cultists or gretchin, sweeping in causing all kinds of wounds and bugging the heck out of dodge.