notmattlythgoe Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I have seen this question going around in regard to being required to use the rerollable jink save because it is better than the 3+ armor save. I wanted to move this discussion out into the open. I don't think you are required to use the jink save for a couple of reasons: 1. It is an optional save. Just like going to ground, you have the option to do it. If you had to use it then any unit out in the open being shot by a lascannon would have to either go to ground or jink because it is their best save. And this has nothing to do with the Ravenwing rule, so why would making it rerollable be any different? 2. By the time you are actually required to make a save it's too late to jink. By stating that its required because it is your best save then you are forcing people to jink because there is the possibility that they will end up having to take a save. The timing of when you have to jink just doesn't work when making this claim. Ravenwing are not required to jink just because their jink save is better than their armor save. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310596-ravenwing-required-to-jink/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA_WarM Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 By RAW, you have to declare that you are jinking before the enemy shoots at you. If you receive 20 shots S4 AP5 and only 2 wound, I'll rely on my regular armour save of 3+. However, if I receive 10 S6 AP3 (Destroyer Gauss Cannon), I would declare I jink even before my enemy make any rolls. Same if I receive 24 S6 AP- shots, I would jink because 4+ relloable (25% chance to fail) is better than 3+(33% chance to fail) As for the Black Knights, I'd jink no matter what because a 3+ rerollable is better than a plain 3+ (16.5% vs 33%) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310596-ravenwing-required-to-jink/#findComment-4112372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ania Redfang Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Whether or not to jink is a decision made by the player. If you decide not to, and you're in the open, then you don't have a cover save, so it can't be your best one. There's no rule saying you must decide to put yourself in the best position for saves as possible, otherwise you'd be forced to run into ruins, or more clearly analogously, you'd be forced to go to ground against ap3 shooting, as a 6+ is better than no save. This clearly isn't the case because this, and jinking, are based on decisions made by the player, and it is only subsequent to this decision that the "use your best save" thing comes into play. Cheers TCOTH Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310596-ravenwing-required-to-jink/#findComment-4112451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I think there is a rule that says you must use your best save, HOWEVER jink is listed as a special kind of save, and because of the negatie downside (snapfire next turn) it's up to the player to decide what the best save really is.... Anyways, no - you don't have to jink. You can use normal cover saves or armour/invul saves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310596-ravenwing-required-to-jink/#findComment-4112517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 As DA_WarM has said you have to declare you are jinking before any "To Hit" rolls are done by your opponent. Even for small arms it is now better for us to jink as it makes us more survivable however if you jink with everything all game you probably won't kill much in the shooting phase. The best strategy is always going to be to use fire lanes and stay out of LOS of the bulk of the opposing army and concentrate fire on opposing units. A bait squad is also a good idea. On another note I'd like to mention that Bike units cannot go to ground as has been suggested so far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310596-ravenwing-required-to-jink/#findComment-4112527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I have seen this question going around in regard to being required to use the rerollable jink save because it is better than the 3+ armor save. I wanted to move this discussion out into the open. I don't think you are required to use the jink save for a couple of reasons: 1. It is an optional save. Just like going to ground, you have the option to do it. If you had to use it then any unit out in the open being shot by a lascannon would have to either go to ground or jink because it is their best save. And this has nothing to do with the Ravenwing rule, so why would making it rerollable be any different? 2. By the time you are actually required to make a save it's too late to jink. By stating that its required because it is your best save then you are forcing people to jink because there is the possibility that they will end up having to take a save. The timing of when you have to jink just doesn't work when making this claim. Ravenwing are not required to jink just because their jink save is better than their armor save. Thoughts? You are just misunderstanding the rules. Jink gives a cover save, but only if you actually choose to activate Jink. You have to declare you are using Jink as soon as your opponent declares he is shooting at your unit, but before he has rolled to hit. Basically the enemy targets your unit, and the unit can choose to engage in evasive maneuvers (i.e. Jink), or not. You can choose to not Jink, and therefore have no access to the Jink cover save, and so likely lose a bike to an incoming lascannon shot because you do not want do neuter the entire unit's shooting for the following turn. It is all entirely your choice to Jink, or not. If you choose not to Jink, you have no access to a cover save from Jink at all, and so are not forced to take a cover save which you do not have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310596-ravenwing-required-to-jink/#findComment-4112542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmattlythgoe Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 I have seen this question going around in regard to being required to use the rerollable jink save because it is better than the 3+ armor save. I wanted to move this discussion out into the open. I don't think you are required to use the jink save for a couple of reasons: 1. It is an optional save. Just like going to ground, you have the option to do it. If you had to use it then any unit out in the open being shot by a lascannon would have to either go to ground or jink because it is their best save. And this has nothing to do with the Ravenwing rule, so why would making it rerollable be any different? 2. By the time you are actually required to make a save it's too late to jink. By stating that its required because it is your best save then you are forcing people to jink because there is the possibility that they will end up having to take a save. The timing of when you have to jink just doesn't work when making this claim. Ravenwing are not required to jink just because their jink save is better than their armor save. Thoughts? You are just misunderstanding the rules. Jink gives a cover save, but only if you actually choose to activate Jink. You have to declare you are using Jink as soon as your opponent declares he is shooting at your unit, but before he has rolled to hit. Basically the enemy targets your unit, and the unit can choose to engage in evasive maneuvers (i.e. Jink), or not. You can choose to not Jink, and therefore have no access to the Jink cover save, and so likely lose a bike to an incoming lascannon shot because you do not want do neuter the entire unit's shooting for the following turn. It is all entirely your choice to Jink, or not. If you choose not to Jink, you have no access to a cover save from Jink at all, and so are not forced to take a cover save which you do not have. To make it clear. I agree with everything you said. I never thought there was a requirement to jink. I have seen others making that claim. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310596-ravenwing-required-to-jink/#findComment-4112547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 People who make that claim probably haven't read the Jink rule in while. The rule is very clear, but we all forget things; especially when they haven't been a factor in one's games for a while. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310596-ravenwing-required-to-jink/#findComment-4112578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmattlythgoe Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 I imagine the thought process went exactly like this. Hey rerollable jink saves! A rerollable 4+ is better than a 3+! Wait, does that mean we are forced to take the jink save because its better? Ravenwing have to use their jink save because its the better save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310596-ravenwing-required-to-jink/#findComment-4112596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 The jink rule does actually say you can decide if you want to do it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310596-ravenwing-required-to-jink/#findComment-4112828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Correct. You have to use the best save, but Jink is optional and is decided before the enemy even rolls to hit. So, you are not forced to use jink if you don't want to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310596-ravenwing-required-to-jink/#findComment-4112833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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