Bleeding edge DA vs UM Battle Report (post #13)

[Frater Cornelius]

Tomorrow the next game with UM is due. This time against CAD White Scars. I have made one game against UM against Battle Company WS, I will put it up after I have made the game tomorrow. Too tired now. The game will be 1650 points and right after I have pre-ordered the Age of Sigmar box for super angelic conversions

Anyway, the list I will be playing will include an Imperial Knight for a change. Here we go:

Hidden Content

CAD - UM

Chapter Master - Bike, AA, SE, TH, Auspex

Telion

Command Squad - Bikes, 4 Grav, Apothecary

10 Tacs - Melta, Combi-Melta, Grav-Cannon, Drop Pod

10 Tacs - Melta, Combi-Melta, Grav-Cannon, Drop Pod

5 Scouts - Camo Pants, Heavy Bolter

Drop Pod

TFC

TFC

Oathsworn Detachment

Knight Paladin

1648pts

The aim of this game is to see how well an IK fits into this army. At 1850, the alternative is the First Company Strike Force with 2x5 Vanguard Vets and 10 Sternguard in Pod and Combat Squads.

Anyway, let me know what you think and I will have the BatRep up by the end of tomorrow

Edit: made some mistakes, edited the list (removed hellfire rounds and IK Equipment)

[Lord Ragnarok]

Eagerly awaiting results on this one...

[Prot]

Interestingly enough.... aside from Telion it looks a lot like a pre-new codex army list!

 

Personally I'm still cycling through all the formations in the book before I branch out to the Knight experiments.

[Frater Cornelius]

35 degrees Celsius outside. I am was playing the games with a towel and two bottles of water today. My FLGS was celebrating its birthday. I was lucky to have booked a table. Did two games. One against White Scars CAD and one against Necron Decurion. Both were 1650. Batreps going up later today.

 

@ Prot - I only use one with my CAD and that is the 1st Company Task Force, and only if I do not bring a Knight. Strike Force Ultra is my 1650 fun list. I mostly ignore the rest.

[Prot]

Looking forward to it!

[Frater Cornelius]

Game 1: White Scars vs The Heavenly Host

 

Enemy List:

Hidden Content

CAD

Chapter Master (the usual thing)

Khan

Bike Command Squad, full Grav

4 units of 3 Bikes with 2 Grav each

2 Whirlwinds (he wanted to test them)

 

Allied Detachment

Tigurius

3 Grav Cents

Drop Pod

5 Scouts in LSS

 

We played the standard mission. He deployed first, I chose the side. Both Scout units infiltrated and he did a few scout moves. I managed to steal initiative after kissing my dice.

 

T1: I activated Tactical Doctrine. Two Tac pods arrived. Bikes and IK moved forward. Scouts and Telion shot one bike unit, one survived. Orbital Bombardment exploded the LSS after scattering and glanced one Whirlwind. The Grav then killed 2 bikes in the unit I was originally shooting at. The Melta Squad exploded one Whirlwind, explosion killed 2 Tacs. The Grav Cannon shot at the Bike Command Squad and killed 1 biker, the rest was eaten by the CM. The other Tac Squad, that landed on the other side, deleted a bike unit.

Both TFC shot at the other WW and glanced it to death. Drop Pods shot at the last bike, but failed to do anything. The IK shot at that bike unit and killed 2.

Morale checks saw the two crippled bike units flee off the board.

 

Enemy activate Devastator Doctrine. His Cents came down and Command Squad moved up. CS killed one Grav Cannon Combat Squad and the lone biker killed 2 guys from the Melta one, whch caused them to run away. Scouts killed the 3 Tacs left over after the WW explosion. Tiggy casted Perfect Timing, but I stopped it. Cents shot at my Command Squad, killing all but one biker and knocked a wound of the CM.

 

T2: I activate Assault Doctrine. Chapter Master and the last bike unit charged Tiggy and Cents and killing off everyone but Tiggy, but lost the biker in the process (the Cent Sarge accepted the challenge). Scouts with Telion finished the last bike. Tacs killed all but 2 Scouts, which fled. Knight managed to do a 8" charge at the CS (after killing 2 more bikers) and killed off everything but the Chapter Master, who ran away.

 

At that point, we called it. This game was a true testament of why MSU Bikes do not work. That is always the first thing I tell people when they ask me for an opinion about pure Ravenwing or White Scars. If you want to play WS, play the Battle Company or include Rhinos. Scouting Rhinos with Tacs and Devs that shoot their Grav Cannons at full force (since scouting is not movement) is very solid. Bikes are too few and too fragile. You should include them as mobile support to shore up weakpoints as the battle progresses, but not as your bread and butter.

As for my list and the IK, I will give a summary after I reviewed the second game.

[Frater Cornelius]

Game 2: Moonwalking Necrons vs The Heavenly Host

 

Enemy List:

Hidden Content

Decurion

Overlord with Warscythe, that deepstrike relic, 4+ invul

Lord (no idea what he had, he never did anything)

Necron Warriors in Arc

Necron Warrior blob on foot

Gauss Immortals

5 Jetbikes

Lychguard with Sword and Board (joined by Overlord)

 

Judicator Battalion

2 units of 5 Praetorians with their 12" S5 AP2 pistols

Stalker with the 2 shot Multimelta

 

5 Deathmarks

 

He wanted to go first, I chose the side. My Scouts did forward infiltration while Telion deploy on an objective. I managed to steal initiative after kissing my dice (I am not kidding, I managed this 4 times in a row and 6 times in total).

 

T1: Enemy had his Lych Guard blob on one side and thus his re-roll 1s for RP bubble did not cover part of his forces., so my pods came down on the other side to exploit the weakness. Out of 4 Meltas, one managed to penetrate the armour and shake the crew. However, both TFC did finish the job. Both Grav Tacs did reduce one Praetorian unit to 2 member. Grav Command killed 5 Warriors from his blob (only 3 were in range). Telion solo sniped one model from the blob, that was connecting the unit with the Overlord bubble (Emperor bless Precision Shots) beforehand. The Scouts took some shots at the Warriors as well and killed 1.

The Paladin shot two perfectly placed pie plates and got 12 wounds on the Immortals as well as 8 wounds on the Praetorians (two floors). Praets saved everything with cover and RP, but 5 out of 10 Immortals bit the dust.

Not as productive as I wanted it to be, but it was something.

 

His Lych Guard moved and ran an additional 6". The 5 Praets shot my CS but CM saved everything. They then charged, lost 1 to Overwatch and then got Mauled by the CM. One dude survived and we stayed in combat. No one else was harmed. His Jetbikes shot and assaulted a Grav Cannon unit. Due to terrain, the fight was essentially 2 Jetbikes vs 3 Marines and it lasted until the end of the game. The last Praet charged the other Grav Tacs, killed 1 and they fled. The Stalker flamed the other Melta Tacs and killed 2, they fled afterwards. The Warriors from the Arc killed one pod, the other one killed 1 Marine with shooting and then charged. They also got stuck until the end of the game. The SM did a good job with 4 vs 9 or so.

 

T2: I activated the Dev Doctrine. The next pod failed to arrive. The Paladin moved out, reduced the Immortals down to 2 dudes + Lord and forced them to flee. He himself tried to charge the Lych Guard but rolled snake eyes. The CM finished the last Praet and the moved back to an objective. The TFC killed 4 Warrior at the back. The fleeing SM regrouped and killed the last Praet. Telion and Scouts tried to shoot the Lych Guard but with 3++, 4+ RP rerolling 1s they only managed to kill 1.

 

The enemy then charged my IK with the Lych Guard and knocked 3 HP off of him with the Overlord. I only killed 1 Guard and the stomps were all saved. His Deathmarks arrived, but did a mishap and went back into ongoing. All the other combats did nothing and stayed there.

 

T3: I activated the Assault Doctrine. The TFC took out another 3 Warriors, leaving two on the board. The Immortals regrouped but were too far away to be relevant (much like the Warriors). The combats between Tacs and the Necrons still did nothing and the other two units had no space to help them, so they just chilled at the Objectives and took pot shots at the stalker, but he passed two 5+ cover saves.

The CM and CS charged the Lych Guard and the CM challenged the Overlord, so that he can tank the Scythe and the IK would not be in any danger. However, the IK had other plans. The usual melee did nothing and I saved all with FnP as well. Then the IK stomped twice and got 2 6s, removing the entire unit of Lych Guard and the Overlord from the game. At that point the opponent threw a temper tantrum and the game was over.

 

MVP: The Knight :D

[Frater Cornelius]

The unit analysis:

 

The Tacs were as solid as always. They are the reason I love UM and they always perform like real warriors should. I have talked about them before, so no need to repeat myself. I reconsidered my Plasma approach and decided to go Grav + Melta. Higher frequency is not needed here, unlike with other SM factions, because Doctrines allow them to push through single deadly shots, so high power guns like Meltas are actually superior here.

 

The CM and CS are the same. I love that unit and I prefer them to Cents. They may not have Cannons, but they are tanky, mobile and sometimes even choppy. Always a good addition for a forward list.

 

TFC are amazing. They pile wound and bust armour like there is no tomorrow. Together with fortifying cover, two of these guys are basically standard in my lists not. So much damage potential.

 

The Scouts were a very good addition. Cheap and hard to dislodge from cover. These guys just pile wounds on MSU units and score. They are annoying and always solid if you have the points.

 

Telion was interesting. Against the Necrons his Precision Shots even made a difference. He can solo camp objectives with 2+ cover in ruins. I am not sure if I prefer him over a Land Speeder Storm (potentially with MM, which is also 50pts) due to its forward Objective grabbing potential, but I will probably include him in 1850 games, where I can fit him, Scouts and LSS into the list without compromising it.

 

The Paladin. Boy oh boy. He got ignored in both games until it was too late. The CS and Tacs in the face of the opponent are too distracting. They can not be ignored because they will eat your face off, but if you go after them, you ignore the IK. He blended perfectly into the list. He is the main problem-solver that cracks open units like CM + CS or Decurion Lych Guard. I think he has massive value in an aggressive and tactical list like that, because whoever you focus, the other half will smite you. I would always go for the Paladin, because I have enough AP2 with my Grav guns and the increased amount of shots allows him to devastate more numerous units and having two Stubbers gives him more charging options. Very solid choice.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Hmmm I may have to rethink my tac/plasma.

 

Good to hear that the tacs and knight are performing so well. Thanks for the reports Immersturm.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hmmm I may have to rethink my tac/plasma.

 

Good to hear that the tacs and knight are performing so well. Thanks for the reports Immersturm.

You are perfectly welcome. As for the Plasmas, I need to add that I am talking about tank-busting. I usually prefer Plasma without re-rolls due to higher rate of fire, since out of two Melta shots you are likely to miss one. With Doctrines, two Melta shots are more likely to cause a pen than two Plasmas (4 shots).

If you are mostly facing Toughness-based models, then Plasmas are still superior. I just prefer Melta + Grav on Tacs, because I have enough means of putting hurt on T values but not enough tank-busting.

[Prot]

I am glad you did the reports and they were very entertaining... I just can't take anything from them because of the inclusion of a Knight. The Knight changes everything. It makes even the mediocre quite playable, and it makes people (on the other side of the table) play differently.... sometimes much worse than they should.

 

But thanks... it looks like some things didn't change much... I always used 1-2 of the Thunderfire Cannons. Also the CM + Grav bikers.... just a little disappointed to hear it's the same old. I don't blame you for using them, I am still trying not to use them, and working towards a different solution in the new codex.

 

And my scouts are just getting into assembly, so it's good to hear you're liking them. 

(I still see my easiest entry into a CAD with some ObSec is Telion + Snipers, but I think the Scout Speeder is almost auto-include for me for a few reasons.)

 

Thanks again for the report. 

[Frater Cornelius]

The IK changed fairly little to be fair. Seeing as he got ignored, the reaction were mainly towards my UM forces. In the WS game I would probably have lost my CM in combat against Khan + CM, but overwhelming dakka would have stopped them anyway, especially since I would have probably brought Sternguard instead. In fact, Sternguard would have made the game even shorter due to better alpha strike against bikes with Hellfire Rounds.

Against Necrons it would have been a fight of attention. Kite around his Lych Guard while the CS bails out the tanks against the Warriors.

All the IK did was speeding up the game. But to be fair, people around here are either not intimidated by one because they know how to handle them or have no ideas about their capabilities.

Make no mistake though, Tacs and TFC still had the highest kill-count ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

I played a 1650 game with a DA buddy, who was preparing for a tournament on Sunday next week. It was a very fun game and it really highlighted how important Objectives are and how powerful Objective Secured can be. It was basically us fighting for objectives like it was the last cup cake on the table. A good game and worth a Battle Report.

My list:

Hidden Content

CAD - UM

Chapter Master - Bike, AA, SE, PF

Command Squad - Bikes, 4 Grav, Apothecary

10 Tacs - Melta, Combi-Melta, Grav-Cannon, Drop Pod

10 Tacs - Melta, Combi-Melta, Grav-Cannon, Drop Pod

5 Scouts - Heavy Bolter, Land Speeder Storm

Drop Pod

TFC

TFC

Oathsworn Detachment

Knight Paladin - Ironstorm Missiles

1648pts

Dark Angels list:

Hidden Content

Librarian - ML1, Axe, Auspex

Command Squad - 5 Grav Guns, Sacred Standard (the one that makes you Relentless), Drop Pod

10 Veterans - 2 Plasmas, 8 Combi-Plasmas, Drop Pod (Combat Squads)

10 Veterans - 1 Plasma, 4 Combi-Plasmas, 1 Melta, 4 Combi-Meltas, Drop Pod (Combat Squads)

5 Tacs - Drop Pod

5 Tacs - Drop Pod

5 RWBK - 1 GL

4 RWBK

Dark Shroud

Inquisitorial Detachment

Inquisitor - 3 Skulls

Henchmen - 2 dudes with Bolters, 1 Psyker ML1

1649pts

We were playing mission 2, but somewhat changed by the TO. Basically, T1 you draw one card only and every subsequent turn you draw one card for every marker you control.

He won the roll-off for sides and denied me the roomy cover.

I won the roll-off for first turn. I decided to deploy first. One TFC was in a building close to the left edge and fortified it. Another TFC hit out of line of sight in a small center building. Command Squad was in a building on the right side, which was fortified by the center TFC. The IK was between the two TFCs with his back to the wall. The Scouts were between CS and the center TFC to deny a good pod-landing. The LSS outflanked. He did an almost-null-deployment. His Henchmen were hidden in some corner scoring an objective. I handed him the initiative and he began the game.

T1 DA:

He drew a card to hold an objective. His Skull placement was superb. The CS and both Veterans arrived and only scattered 1D6 because of the skulls, basically landing on the objectives. Very nice tactic. The Melta Squad assembled around the IK, 2 on front facing, 3 on side facing. One Plasma squad went towards the left TFC. The CS landed north of my CS, only seeing 1 bike and the CM. His two Plasma combat squads landed further to the left, one having a clear shot at the CM and all but 1 bike, the other had to walk around the Scouts.

He did a Psychic Scream and did 3 wounds to the CS. One biker died, but the CM saved the other two with one 3++ and one FnP. The the dakka commenced. The Grav and both Plasma units shot at my CS. The CM survived with 1 HP and the Apothecary was still standing. Ouch. The Melta Squad shot at the IK, only one Melta actually did something (the rest was either saved or failed to pen or did not hit). The IK lost 3 HP. The last Plasma unit shot at the TFC, but 3+ cover and T7 saved everything. The Drop Pods took some shots, but did nothing.

T1 UM:

I activated the Tactical Doctrine and drew a card to score an objective. Both Tacticals arrived. One Tactical landed on top of his CS Pod and scored the objective thanks to OS. The other pod landed on top of his left Vet Pod and took away that one. My combat Squads disembarked and spread out. The CS drove around the back to a Plasma Squad.

In the shooting phase, the Grav Cannon unit, Scouts and one TFC reduced the CS unit down to one dude and the Librarian (bloody INQ ate three wounds). The Melta unit reduced one Plasma unit down to two Bolter guys. The Knight tried to fire his Ironstorm at the Henchmen, but scattered. The Battle Cannon managed to kill one drop pod and reduce the Plasma unit down to 1 dude. The Grav Cannon unit and the Melta unit killed his Melta unit and the TFC finished the last guy from the Plasma unit.

The CS shot and charged his Plasma unit. He hit and wound both Plasma shots. Luckily, the CM saved one wound and the Apothecary saved the other with FnP. He failed to do anything in melee, I killed three but we remained stuck.

I completed my card and got first blood.

DA T2:

He only got one card due to my OS pods. Both of his pods and all RW arrived. One of his pods landed on top of my left pod and denied me the objective. His other pod landed right next to my Knight and the Tacs encircled him to deny movement. He scored the marker next to it due to OS. His BK and DS moved towards the right side where the CS was.

With shooting he killed the entire grav unit on the left (BK and CS shot it), killed 1 guy from the Melta unit on the right. On the left side he killed 2 dudes from my Grav unit including the Cannon and two guys from the Melta unit, including the Melta. Both units fled. The CM and Apoth finished the last two Vets.

He scored an objective and got his second point.

UM T2:

I activated the Dev Doctrine and My LSS and Pod arrived. I only got one card. The LSS got the side he wanted and took away the objective from the Henchmen. The Pod tried to land on the only free objective but scattered 10" towards my table edge. The CM kept his distance from the BM. The TFC and LSS killed the Henchmen. One regrouped Tac killed 1 Marine and moved up. The other one moved towards the pod and threw a grenade and charged it, but failed to do anything. The IK shot the Tac Squad with both Stubbers and killed 1, the Ironstorm and Battle Cannon shot at the Tacs and Pod, did one glace and killed 2 Tacs. The CM put an Orbital Strike on a BK unit and forced it to jink, all wounds were saved. The Scouts shot the CS and finished it (he Periled the turn before when doing his Scream). The Pod shot the other BK unit, he did not Jink and lost 1 guy. Teaches him not to jink. The last 4 dudes from the right Melta unit shot and managed to charge the DS, but failed to do anything.

One TFC tried to take out the DS but failed to damage it with its Ignore Cover shot. The IK charged the Tacs and destroyed them. I scored the objective and got another point and Slay the Warlord.

DA T3:

He drew one card. The two fleeing Tacs from the left moved towards the LSS, shot and charged it, but failed to damage it. The BK moved up while the DS moved back. They killed my Tac squad and put a glance on my Pod, but lost one guy to overheating. His remaining Pods took some shots but failed to do anything.

He killed a character and went up to three points.

UM T3:

I activate the Assault DoctrineThe IK moved up. Since he bunched up his DS and BK, I shot the BK, put two glances on the DS and forced the BK to Jink. The both TFC tried to finish the DS, but scattered badly, but killing two BK. Scouts shot at the other unit, but failed to do anything. Land Speeder moved into the building to score and objective and immobilized itself on top. The CM went to the left and kill a drop pod and get it off the objective. Three Bolter dudes move up and killed one of the two SM who tried to kill the LSS.

I scored my objective and went up to 4 points.

DA T4:

He could not draw any cards since I denied him everything at that point. His one BK moved up and killed my drop pod. The other two BK charged my Scouts, killed two and saved the wounds. The Scouts held their ground. The pile in move brought them close to the objective where the exploded drop pod was and thus were still denying that one.

The one lone Marine went into the building and threw a Grenade at the Speeder but it saved the pen. He charged it and killed it. His DS hide behind a bunker.

UM T4:

I drew an objective I could not do, since I had no reserves anymore. The IK moved down and killed one Drop Pod and the lonely BK, who could not jink the large blast since I put it on the other drop pod. The Scouts killed one BK in melee and lost one guy. I was still scoring the marker. The CM boosted up to get line-breaker. The Tacs moved up to get closer to his one Tac. The other Tacs once again threw a grenade and charged the pod, but only did one glace.

DA T5:

His last BK failed to kill the scouts and Hit and Run away, but failed to get close enough to a marker and thus drew no cards. The DS took some shots at the CM, but I saved it. The last Marine moved to score and marker and took some shots at the Tacs approaching him but failed to wound. The BK moved and boosted away and hid.

UM T5:

I drew two cards. Scouts moved up and ran, but failed to get close to an objective they needed. The IK killed the last drop pod on that side and stayed on the marker. One TFC finished the DS. The other one tried to kill the Tac, but ended up killing two of my Tacs. I was too greedy there. The CM moved to a secure position to score line-breaker.

My one Tac charged his Tac, both were fighting but nothing happened.

The game did not go on to T6. The final score was 7 points for UM and 3 points for DA, who only had two models and one drop pod on the board.

The game was really fun but still tense. Everyone was thinking for a good while and planning their moves. We did the mandatory three turns and where below the 2.5h time limit though and had our fair share of fun.

Once again, the Tacs carried the game and the Scouts were very useful. Objective Secured was king here. I managed to deny him his objectives and thus prevent him from drawing cards. However, no unit was useless, which was great.

I think he did one major mistake and that was keeping his RW in reserve.

However, in the end this game confirmed what I was already thinking after my games with DA. Just taking BK + DS does not work. Once they jink, they are done. Their melee is too weak. You can not rely on Rending and WS4 negates a lot of hits. The GL could have helped, but they were permanently jinking, so no chance. The list itself was strong, but I think that taking naked RWBK and relying on their jink is a dead end. I will try new lists and figure something out though.

Anyway, that was it. Hope you liked it

[Prot]

As much as  I enjoy the batreps, I'd really like to see a game where it's Knight vs Knight.

 

I have a strong suspicion if you had the Dark Angels with a Knight, you probably would have won either way.

 

I know you can say the Knight is inconsequential, yet you seem to always take it. If the key is Tacticals, why not drop the Knight? 

 

I've just seen far too many games won just by including a Knight. There's someone on this board that took a basic Chaos list for instance, just added a Knight, never seemed to face a Knight, and I don't think he lost a game.

 

Congratulations on your win though. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Because I like the Knight. It is part of my fluff and my favourite unit in the game. I usually take the Knight to deal with what I call 'problem units'. For example, Lych Guard with Orikan (3++ re-roll 1s, 4+ RP) or Invisible Death Stars. He can stomp them to death and the D weapon is very useful when breaking those units.

Let me put this into perspective. The alternative would be Tigurius with 3 Grav/Bolter Cents in a pod, which would 10pts more expensive and this would come at the cost of the Heavy Bolter on the Scouts. Tiggy would have rolled on Divination to get Ignore cover. I would have staggered him until T2 and completely annihilated his RWBK in one Split Fire volley. Alternatively, I would have fished for Invisibility, come on T1 and kill his MEQ faster. The offensive output would have been way higher. However, an IK is more sturdy and Cents do not remove 'problem units' as well. That is why I take the IK. The match up against DA would have been moved from 'good' to 'I wonder why you are even trying' if I would have gone with Cents.

[Loar]

Either way its still the knight, not the tacticals that are pushing you over.  Also if your opponent shifted his list to actually use the RWSF and get the 'free' jink from turboboosting that would mitigate alot of the problem with BK, you just need that one solid turn after closing the distance to make your shots/melee count.  A +2 rerollable cover save with no jink penalty is gonna do just that, you can light someone up with the plasma and still stasis grenade to charge in after for a much more effective melee.

[Frater Cornelius]

I have played plenty of games without an IK. Saying the win was only because of the IK is a rather baseless assumption, seeing as the only game where it did something of significance was against Necrons. If you look at the game you will notice that all it killed was 5 Tacs and 3 Pods, as well as bait he Melta boys to shoot at him.

I really do not get the Knight-phobia. No matter who or when one takes one, all the wins are immediately attributed to just including one in the list. Either way, I will be playing Knight-less DA the next few games now, so you will have your break from my what apparently is broken cheese-mongering.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

You are getting strong reactions about the Knight because people want to see how good is the new Codex without having allies.

A Knight is never inconsequential or you wouldn't take it, no matter fluff-y or not, because a Knight is always an ace up the sleeve. Either people know how to deal with it and have the tools to deal with it or they will pay a heavy price for not being prepared, because even if the knight doesn't kill his fair share he will still provide a good distraction diverting firepower his way that could be spent elsewhere.

Anyway,the reason why I am here: the DA list was not the best he could've pulled. All those vets make a nice firework, but after that they are just expensive non-scoring tactical marines. The list is not taking full advantage of the sinergy offered by the Codex. And the Inquisitor... in a DA army?

But at least you got the answer to your question: Why should people take normal bikes if you have "awesome" BK's. because you can't rely on firing the plasma talons every turn. Also interesting to see that you advocated that you didn't even needed to shoot RWBK's because their melee was so awesome and now you say precisely the opposite.

Sometimes units outperform in a couple of games but we still have to keep feet on the ground and get more games before drawing conclusion. On paper RWBK are awesome, but if the enemy knows what he is facing they get dialed back from awesome to just good.

Anyway, best of luck with DA games, hope you got some ideas from the game against them.

I would also look forward to read about the Vanilla marines, with or (preferably) without the Knight.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah well, I do not do BatReps on request. I play the lists I want to play and I think are competitive. I do not have to share any of it, but I recon that someone might learn a bit from them. If you want to moan about Knight, do it, but do not expect me to come back here with a smile and play the stuff you want me to play.

Verdict: if you have nothing better to say except 'you just won because you have a Knight', best don't comment at all.

 

Also, thanks for reminding me of that dilemma. I always knew that I will see you the moment I made a wrong assumption or statement :P

And yes, I agree that his list isn't the best he could have made, but it was a start.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

But you do Batreps, that means you want to show something, so like it or not you will receive feedback on what you are showing. The feedback can fail to meet your expectations, but sometimes it can make you think of other possibilities. Case in point, people are now interested in knowing how the same list would behave without the Knight. Could it be better, could it be worse? It is certainly interesting to know!

 

As for reminding you of the dilemma, well, it's not to be absolutely malicious. It' not because you were wrong, if you were right I would say something just the same. It was just because first RWBK were awesome to you, then you said they don't shoot good but have excellent CC and now you say they suck in CC.. You were to quick to jump from extremes and take those as the  truth when sometimes the value of a unit lies between the extremes we attribute to them.

[Frater Cornelius]

No worries, bud. If I was omniscent, I would not open threads to discuss things. In the contrary, when looking back, it is interesting to see how ones opinion developed.

 

I will make games without an IK and if I recall correctly, my first two games where without Knights as well though.

[Brother Turok]

Wow that was a horrendously bad dark angel list. The new codex has some very powerful builds, and your buddy didnt play to the strengths or special rules of the dark angels. He should have ran a lions blade grav/razorback spam army, a ravenwing grav list with deathwing, or a tri wing. Grav is great, esp with b.s. 4 overwatch! Its like an ap2 heavy bolted that eats marines and monstrous monstrosities for breakfast!

 

Melta bombs on bikes would be great too. I learned that the hardware when my imperial knight blew up on our first turn :(

 

I'm surprised he did as well as he did with what he had.

[Frater Cornelius]

In my opinion the Lion's Blade is horrendously bad. Far worse than the Gladius. Not sure why everyone is losing their mind over it. Full Overwatch? Yeah, very useful in a shooty edition. Besides, the tournament we will be playing at banned Formation-related Detachments anyway. And finally, the book has been out for a few weeks. He basically adapted his 6ed list and tried it. Give it some time and he'll eventually make a list that might please the unpleasable imternet dwellers of today.