Honestly, did they simply forget a rule on rad grenades?

[Corrupted]

Now that I feel that I've processed the codex, started playtesting lists, got a feel for the changes to the army, a few thing have me scratching my head. The Ravenwing detachment HQ thing, Asmodai (in general), and mostly rad grenades....

 

I'm honestly wondering if they simply left out a rule, the same way they forgot 'rapid fire' on plasma talons in the last book. As it stands now I can't think of a single situation where I would fire this shell over any of the others. And I'm not just saying it's an underpowered choice, it really seems like it's missing something such as; Fleshbane or Poison X+.

 

Right now we have a small blast las gun that inflicts two wounds on a six, so the special rule only has an effect on multi wound models Against single wound models you're always better off firing a stasis shell, same profile, or frag shell. Now against multi wound models, generally a large base mitigating the blast 'bonus', its just a lasgun. So what is it for? I like to make fun of GW rules writing as much as the next guy, but I can usually tell what they were going for even if it falls short. With this I honestly have no idea what they were even trying to achieve, which really makes me wonder if something in the profile was a typo or there some kind of unintentional omission.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[ValourousHeart]

It works like it does in the Ad Mech book.

 

Also it isn't just effective vs multi-wound models.

What it does is causes 2 wounds on a certain roll, which is very similar to the vulnerable to templates rule that that swarms have.

[Jazzhands]

Causes two wounds that have to be saved separately. So a one wound model could save one and still die.

 

But you are right they have gone from use every game to never use

[Corrupted]

Didn't realize they were in the ad mech book, what a shame. I was honestly expecting to lose them just like Grey Knights (I believe), this is in some ways, more sad... You would think they would at least ignore cover, what with the radiation, and maybe poison 4+. At which point they still wouldn't be great, but at least usable.

[TheAvengingKnee]

Yep they changed from amazing to meh this edition, just swapped the front of my bike to a talon. It's a new codex we got a lot of other great things though. Over all it seems like a huge improvement from the previous codex. Now to acquire some more grav gun bits...

[Corrupted]

I'm still going back and forth on dropping the launcher, stasis grenades can still be really useful.

[ValourousHeart]

If it causes 2 wounds and you fail 2 saves you would remove 2 models or 2 wounds off of a multi-wound model.

 

It is no where near as situational as you are making it out to be.

 

But what it does mean that you actually make a choice of what to fire as opposed to always using the old rad shot.

[Finn]

Yeah, I miss the old rad grenades too. But ValourousHeart raised a valid point - using them before, instead of any other rounds, was a no brainer.

[Corrupted]

There were plenty of situations last codex that I used stasis. I still can't think of an 'optimal target' for the new rad grenades.

[SvenONE]

The thing is however, that if you are in range to use it, you may as well just use the stasis since youll be charging next turn.

 

It is a bummer they changed it but oh well. Black Knights went down a tad in points, I guess this is how they justified it. They should have at least improved the damage so that it was S4.

[Syphid]

If it causes 2 wounds and you fail 2 saves you would remove 2 models or 2 wounds off of a multi-wound model.

 

It is no where near as situational as you are making it out to be.

 

But what it does mean that you actually make a choice of what to fire as opposed to always using the old rad shot.

 

I'm not sure when you would ever use Rad grenades.  Seems to me that if you are charging, use stasis.  If not, use krak or frag.  I don't know when Rad would be a better choice than those three. At 12" I'd rather rapid fire with Krak against higher toughness models, or rapid fire with frag against hordes.  More hits and more chance to wound beats a 1-in-6 gimmick.

[Corrupted]

 

If it causes 2 wounds and you fail 2 saves you would remove 2 models or 2 wounds off of a multi-wound model.

 

It is no where near as situational as you are making it out to be.

 

But what it does mean that you actually make a choice of what to fire as opposed to always using the old rad shot.

 

I'm not sure when you would ever use Rad grenades.  Seems to me that if you are charging, use stasis.  If not, use krak or frag.  I don't know when Rad would be a better choice than those three. At 12" I'd rather rapid fire with Krak against higher toughness models, or rapid fire with frag against hordes.  More hits and more chance to wound beats a 1-in-6 gimmick.

 

 

Exactly.

The thing is however, that if you are in range to use it, you may as well just use the stasis since youll be charging next turn.

 

It is a bummer they changed it but oh well. Black Knights went down a tad in points, I guess this is how they justified it. They should have at least improved the damage so that it was S4.

 

-2 points, Rad nerf, jink buff, I honestly think they came out ahead.

[Master Avoghai]

I had the objective to mount a 6th biker for my 3 squads of knights, all with GL, but I finally think I'll go for a plasma talons. That way I'll be able to field either 5 without GL or 5/6 with one GL.

 

The way I see the thing is that I'll never use rad grenades. I'll use either frag against hordes or Stasis before I charge...

 

Indeed the previews rules was just huge : giving the possibility to insta kill a SM character with the plasma talon was just too much... A friend of mine who plays GK didnt appreciate them : it negates the 2W AND the FNP of the paladins :lol:

 

But now they were too far in nerfing : they should have given the weapon a better AP

[ValourousHeart]

Doesn't Rad deal 2 wounds on 6's regardless of Toughness?

Not certain of the how often this will come up, maybe as often as Sammie gets to kill 7 TDA models with 1 shot from his plasma cannon.

 

But S3 can at most wound T6

S6 can at most wound T9

And S7 can wound T10 on 6+

So with Rad, that means that your GL should be shooting every turn with at least one of the weapon choices.

 

Would Grav had been a better option?

You bet?

But we have a beat stick unit that can deal with anything except GW or FW can throw at it except AV14.

And we got other units that have that covered better than most.

There are not many units out there that can make that claim.

[Corrupted]

Doesn't Rad deal 2 wounds on 6's regardless of Toughness?

Not certain of the how often this will come up, maybe as often as Sammie gets to kill 7 TDA models with 1 shot from his plasma cannon.

 

But S3 can at most wound T6

S6 can at most wound T9

And S7 can wound T10 on 6+

So with Rad, that means that your GL should be shooting every turn with at least one of the weapon choices.

 

Would Grav had been a better option?

You bet?

But we have a beat stick unit that can deal with anything except GW or FW can throw at it except AV14.

And we got other units that have that covered better than most.

There are not many units out there that can make that claim.

 

I'm probably going to keep the grenade launcher on my knight, my only point is this:

 

If my target is WS 3 or 4, and/or I 4 or 5, it's getting a stasis shell.

If it doesn't fit any of the criteria for a stais shell, and it's a GEQ, it's getting a frag shell.

If it doesn't fit any of the criteria for a stais shell, and it's tougher than a guardsmen it's getting two krak shells to the chest.

 

I just can't think of any unit, in the entire game, where I would choose the current rad grenade over the other three. Maybe units with the swarm special rule? But even then the better stat line of the frag shell probably wins out. MCs are either getting stasis or krak. 

 

I just want to see the target that it mathematically makes sense to shoot this shell at.

 

All this being said please don't think I'm bad mouthing Black Knights, their amazing, one of the coolest and best rounded units in the game. Just like I said in the first post the Rad Grenade is a 'head scratcher' nothing more.

[JeffJedi]

Frag wounds up to strength 6 on a 6+ anyway and is rapid fire so 2 shots, 2 templates means more wounds.

 

Krak wounds up to Strength 9 on a 6+ and rapid fire again.