Tempest lore discussion and review.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Ok so for all of you who have Tempest, what do you think of it? 

 

I thought it does a great job of simmering down the "golden boy" status of the 40k ultramarines, while still giving them some badass charm. The battle of Calth section was nicely done, and really fleshed out alot of other events that took place on Calth, that KNF didnt mention. There is one quote that i want peoples opinions on.

 

"As the fighting wore on, what begun as a series of isolated and chaotic slaughters slowly began to coalesce. With many Word Bearers detachments disregarding what was once considered standard military practice to engage in inscrutable rituals and wanton butchery, the XIIIth legion survivors were afforded a momentary respite. For any other than Guilliumans own, such a pause would have meant little. A chance, perhaps, to sell their lives dearly in a glorious but hopeless last stand or futile rage filled assault. For the XIIIth legion however, it was a chance to grasp victory from defeat."

 

Now i got into a discussion with someone who doesnt follow 30k, but they did not like this quote, as they thought it made the Ultras "Mary sue". I think it just shows that the ultramarines have an iron will, and the tactical prowess to be able to find victory at all costs. What do you guys think?

[Daemon2027]

I suppose it could be taken the wrong way, each Legion would react in their own way, to their own strengths, but I think it's just trying to show how the Ultramairnes can adapt quickly to any situation, using their little time to prepare for the next onslaught or to counter attack, which to me is their strength. It is also someone's view written after the heresy, it's their opinion, not law.

[Remus Ventanus.]

I suppose it could be taken the wrong way, each Legion would react in their own way, to their own strengths, but I think it's just trying to show how the Ultramairnes can adapt quickly to any situation, using their little time to prepare for the next onslaught or to counter attack, which to me is their strength. It is also someone's view written after the heresy, it's their opinion, not law.

Well said, son of the raven!

[Olis]

Now i got into a discussion with someone who doesnt follow 30k, but they did not like this quote, as they thought it made the Ultras "Mary sue". I think it just shows that the ultramarines have an iron will, and the tactical prowess to be able to find victory at all costs. What do you guys think?

 

I am going to assume your friend doesn't know the actual meaning of 'Mary Sue'...

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

Now i got into a discussion with someone who doesnt follow 30k, but they did not like this quote, as they thought it made the Ultras "Mary sue". I think it just shows that the ultramarines have an iron will, and the tactical prowess to be able to find victory at all costs. What do you guys think?

 

I am going to assume your friend doesn't know the actual meaning of 'Mary Sue'...

 

I think he is more of a blind hater tbh. Would you mind elaborating, as i very much want your opinion.

[depthcharge12]

It does make it feel that due to the WB's incompetence and desire for ritual that the UMs were able to win...which almost make the UMs look weak IMHO.

 

However, it must be taken in context. Later in the game rules, it outlines winning conditions for both sides. "Winning" for the WBs means removing the Ultras from the larger war, whether by annihilation, a massacre, or the ruinstorm. They do successfully take the Ultras out of the larger picture for quite a while. Winning for the ultras is just surviving. Every person they can save is one less that can be used for ritual and the greater picture.

[Olis]

 

 

Now i got into a discussion with someone who doesnt follow 30k, but they did not like this quote, as they thought it made the Ultras "Mary sue". I think it just shows that the ultramarines have an iron will, and the tactical prowess to be able to find victory at all costs. What do you guys think?

 

I am going to assume your friend doesn't know the actual meaning of 'Mary Sue'...

 

I think he is more of a blind hater tbh. Would you mind elaborating, as i very much want your opinion.

 

Well, on the matter of the term 'Mary Sue', it refers to a character or faction that is not just overpowered or idealised but often without flaws and - what makes anything an actual 'Mary Sue' - is a self-insert. Or that was the original definition as I understand it. The Ultramarines, even at the height of their favour, were not 'Mary Sues'. Sure, they were idealised but they were hardly overpowered or proxies for wish-fulfilment. Neither were they flawless. They were touted as much less flawed than many other Chapters but various tidbits in the lore present the Ultramarines as just a fallible as many other Chapters. It was simply that their presence and influence has been hyped in some sources to a degree that some of the fanbase believed to be overkill. 

 

In Tempest, in my opinion (humble as I claim it to be), the Ultramarines are shown in a light that reduces their 'paragon' nature. Some see this as a bad thing, some see it as a good thing. Their ability to rally and survive in a situation where they should have perished owes almost as much to their inherent ability to adapt as it does to the Word Bearers becoming 'distracted' from pursuing their primary objectives. This in and of itself does not bestow a 'Mary Sue' nature on the Ultramarines, regardless of whether they had it in the first place or not. They survived as much through effort as through circumstance. 

 

At least one previous iteration of the assault on Calth had the entire Word Bearer Legion attack the Ultramarines. With the reduction in Word Bearers numbers in the retconned (I tentatively say) scenario, their survival seems just that little bit more believable, that little bit more credible. However, they were still laid low. And by an astartes contingent a quarter of their own size. This fact alone should dispel the 'Mary Sue' accusation. And let's not forget, there were other forces involved, too.

 

Edit - Typo.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Tread very carefully here. A very long thread on a similar subject was already closed down elsewhere on the board and I will kill this thing faster than Garviel "Buzzkill" Loken does a party if it starts to head the same direction.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

 

 

Now i got into a discussion with someone who doesnt follow 30k, but they did not like this quote, as they thought it made the Ultras "Mary sue". I think it just shows that the ultramarines have an iron will, and the tactical prowess to be able to find victory at all costs. What do you guys think?

 

I am going to assume your friend doesn't know the actual meaning of 'Mary Sue'...

 

I think he is more of a blind hater tbh. Would you mind elaborating, as i very much want your opinion.

 

Well, on the matter of the term 'Mary Sue', it refers to a character or faction that is not just overpowered or idealised but often without flaws and - what makes anything an actual 'Mary Sue' - is a self-insert. Or that was the original definition as I understand it. The Ultramarines, even at the height of their favour, were not 'Mary Sues'. Sure, they were idealised but they were hardly overpowered or proxies for wish-fulfilment. Neither were they flawless. They were touted as much less flawed than many other Chapters but various tidbits in the lore present the Ultramarines as just a fallible as many other Chapters. It was simply that their presence and influence has been hyped in some sources to a degree that some of the fanbase believed to be overkill. 

 

In Tempest, in my opinion (humble as I claim it to be), the Ultramarines are shown in a light that reduces their 'paragon' nature. Some see this as a bad thing, some see it as a good thing. Their ability to rally and survive in a situation where they should have perished owes almost as much to their inherent ability to adapt as it does to the Word Bearers becoming 'distracted' from pursuing their primary objectives. This in and of itself does not bestow a 'Mary Sue' nature on the Ultramarines, regardless of whether they had it in the first place or not. They survived as much through effort as through circumstance. 

 

At least one previous iteration of the assault on Calth had the entire Word Bearer Legion attack the Ultramarines. With the reduction in Word Bearers numbers in the retconned (I tentatively say) scenario, their survival seems just that little bit more believable, that little bit more credible. However, they were still laid low. And by an astartes contingent a quarter of their own size. This fact alone should dispel the 'Mary Sue' accusation. And let's not forget, there were other forces involved, too.

 

Edit - Typo.

 

Very well said. What about the "For any other than Guilliumans own, such a pause would have meant little. A chance, perhaps, to sell their lives dearly in a glorious but hopeless last stand or futile rage filled assault. For the XIIIth legion however, it was a chance to grasp victory from defeat." Thats not mary sue is it? It jsut shows that the ultramarines excel in this form of warfare?

[Lord Tharand]

I think it speaks more to those Word Bearers that Lorgar sent to be purged on Calth than it does the Ultramarines.  There is a reason those chapters were picked and sent to Calth.  They had, for reasons of blind rage and hatred, become unreliable military formations.  The results of Calth speak for the themselves in that regard.  They weren't prosecuting a military campaign so much as they were venting their rage at the Ultramarines who weathered the initial storm, took notice of the Word Bearers performing rituals and were able to regroup as an organized fighting force.

 

My general opinion of Tempest is that it was extremely well done and I liked reading the fluff very much.

[Daemon2027]

One of the Word Bearers aims was to start the ruinstorm, so in effect the rituals and butchery were part of their adjective. They clearly miscalculated the Ultramarines resolve in terms of delivering a fatal blow, but they were successful in the creation of the storm.mthe real failure was Kor Phearon who had the chance to really strike a blow at the XIIIths heart (or more correct, their head) and kill Guiliman. But he decided to try and turn him.

[Remus Ventanus.]

But do you guys agree that only the ultramarines would of been able to regroup, like the quote says?

[Olis]

Very well said. What about the "For any other than Guilliumans own, such a pause would have meant little. A chance, perhaps, to sell their lives dearly in a glorious but hopeless last stand or futile rage filled assault. For the XIIIth legion however, it was a chance to grasp victory from defeat." Thats not mary sue is it? It jsut shows that the ultramarines excel in this form of warfare?

 

I think it speaks of the adaptability the Ultramarines of 30k exhibit. This is one of their defining traits in the era - more than anyone else they can learn, adapt and overcome in short order. Or at least, in shorter order than their cousins.

[Legatus]

"For any other than Guilliumans own, such a pause would have meant little. A chance, perhaps, to sell their lives dearly in a glorious but hopeless last stand or futile rage filled assault. For the XIIIth legion however, it was a chance to grasp victory from defeat."

 

The line implies that the Ultramarines can do something the other Legions can not, so it is bound to put some people off. I guess that line is Tempest's "These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman ".

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

Very well said. What about the "For any other than Guilliumans own, such a pause would have meant little. A chance, perhaps, to sell their lives dearly in a glorious but hopeless last stand or futile rage filled assault. For the XIIIth legion however, it was a chance to grasp victory from defeat." Thats not mary sue is it? It jsut shows that the ultramarines excel in this form of warfare?

 

I think it speaks of the adaptability the Ultramarines of 30k exhibit. This is one of their defining traits in the era - more than anyone else they can learn, adapt and overcome in short order. Or at least, in shorter order than their cousins.

 

Yes well said. 

[rendingon1+]

Literally it means: "Leaving civilians to Word Bearers deviant rituals, Ultramarines abandoned attempts to protect them and regrouped their forces."

[Visitor13]

But do you guys agree that only the ultramarines would of been able to regroup, like the quote says?

 

Everyone would have been able to regroup. Question is would anyone else have the numbers to mount a successful counterattack.

[rendingon1+]

I think that (almost) any Legion would be able to do so. Especially Legions like Raven Guard and Alpha Legion.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

But do you guys agree that only the ultramarines would of been able to regroup, like the quote says?

 

Everyone would have been able to regroup. Question is would anyone else have the numbers to mount a successful counterattack.

 

Tho the qote states that only the ultramarines would have been able to. I struggle to see legions like the DA, IH, RG and AL being able to, as i believe they would have been broken after the initial attack

[Visitor13]

 

 

But do you guys agree that only the ultramarines would of been able to regroup, like the quote says?

 

Everyone would have been able to regroup. Question is would anyone else have the numbers to mount a successful counterattack.

 

Tho the qote states that only the ultramarines would have been able to. I struggle to see legions like the DA, IH, RG and AL being able to, as i believe they would have been broken after the initial attack

 

 

What are you basing this on? And anyway, I was only talking about loyalists.

[Daemon2027]

Well not quite. The RG and AL would have broken into smaller groups and harried the Word Bearers, performing hit and run behind the WB lines, making things difficult. Which work in certain situations, but they would struggle to mount a strong central counter offensive as its not really how they work. Similiar the Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors would have bunkered down and formed better defensive positions then the XIII but become more static.

The point I'm trying to make is that all the Legions have their strengths and their weakness. The Ultramarines are good at everything, but they dont excel in a certain area. I would rather have the RG for hit and run guerilla warfair, the Imperial Fist for defensive etc. But the Ultrams can do all this well, and they are very good to adapting to a situation.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

 

 

But do you guys agree that only the ultramarines would of been able to regroup, like the quote says?

 

Everyone would have been able to regroup. Question is would anyone else have the numbers to mount a successful counterattack.

 

Tho the qote states that only the ultramarines would have been able to. I struggle to see legions like the DA, IH, RG and AL being able to, as i believe they would have been broken after the initial attack

 

 

What are you basing this on? And anyway, I was only talking about loyalists.

 

If i recall from Fulgrim, the IH and RG were broken very quickly on istvaan 5. I could be wrong tho because i havent read it in a while. 

 

But all i really want to know is if people think its ok for Tempest to say that only the ultramarines would have been able to regroup like that. Im fine with it, because that is the ultramarines one strong point.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Well not quite. The RG and AL would have broken into smaller groups and harried the Word Bearers, performing hit and run behind the WB lines, making things difficult. Which work in certain situations, but they would struggle to mount a strong central counter offensive as its not really how they work. Similiar the Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors would have bunkered down and formed better defensive positions then the XIII but become more static.

The point I'm trying to make is that all the Legions have their strengths and their weakness. The Ultramarines are good at everything, but they dont excel in a certain area. I would rather have the RG for hit and run guerilla warfair, the Imperial Fist for defensive etc. But the Ultrams can do all this well, and they are very good to adapting to a situation.

Wow couldnt have worded it better. While certain legions may have performed better in certain areas during the battle, they would have failed at other areas. The ultramarines however, are the jack of all trades and masters of none

[Visitor13]

The IH lost their primarch. Corax rallied what remained of his legion as soon as they got a "momentary respite" (Gav Thorpe's story, don't remember the title).

[Remus Ventanus.]

The IH lost their primarch. Corax rallied what remained of his legion as soon as they got a "momentary respite" (Gav Thorpe's story, don't remember the title).

Ok my apologies. 

 

Hydra summed it up pretty nicely tho