New Codex Gripe(s) *Yes, a bit of a rant*

[Blank05]

So I had finally started to come to terms with the state of our First Company in regards to our new Codex. Yeah, it stinks, but whatever. Things be changin' and that's the way it is.

 

HOWEVER! I was talking to some friends down at the LGS about who they think has the best Terminators now and I learned that EVERY chapter is Adeptus Astartes has some way of Deep Striking their Terminators on turn 1, except for us.

 

Vanilla Marines: Strike Force Ultra Formation

 

Space Wolves: Wolf Guard Void Claws Formation

 

Blood Angels: Archangels Formation

 

Grey Knights: Nemesis Strike Force Detachment

 

Dark Angels: None

 

And that's just what I know about. Can I just take a second to express how irritating that is...?

 

As a long time Dark Angels Player(12 years) I'm am so sick of being the chapter that everyone takes from. Don't get me wrong, it used to be flattering that everyone wanted to be like us, but now it's just disheartening.

 

It all started with Plasma Cannons(at least as far as I can recall) in our Tactical Squads. It was something that made us unique. It wasn't much, but it was something. Then we gave up our secret to C:SM. Then went our Termy Troops, then our Bike Troops and now our first turn assault. And I know we've only had first turn assault since 5th Edition, but it was ours. It made us feared, nay, respected.

 

I'll admit, I don't know everything about 40k, so this is just from my (fairly) limited knowledge of this game. It was one thing when we shared our abilities with everyone(Troop Terms/Bikes, Plasma Tacticals, etc,) but now they're taking them away from us and I am getting really fed up.

 

Now, all that said, I will never give up on us, fellow unforgiven, but I had to get that off my virtual chest. Thanks for listening.

[march10k]

I've been playing DA since 1998, does that qualify me to chastise you?  

 

lol, j/k!

 

It is true that C:UM  gets our cool guy gear one edition after we do, and all of your other complaints have some merit, too...but give it a minute.  Deathwing assault is one of our hallmarks, I'm sure we'll get a data sheet or something that gives it back in some form.  

 

The thing is...they want us to synergize with ravenwing.  Deepstriking on turn one, while the bikes are still in our deployment zone, doesn't  really synch with that.  That doesn't really make it any more fun to not be able to go pure DW and DS on turn one.  We do get a few options for a 12" deepstrike bubble, which is AMAZING, it's 3.5x the real estate of a 6"  bubble.  Combined with shoot twinlinked and still run on arrival, it's pretty freakin' awesome.  I'd be thrilled if we got to assault on arrival (probably only when using a ravenwing beacon) in compensation for no first turn deepstrike, but I don't see it happening...drop in a LARGE bubble without scatter, shoot twinlinked, then spread out to mitigate blast weapons...that's a lot of awesome.

[Prot]

Gees guys the Deathwing lists I've been playing have been -light years- beyond the 'competitve' ability of what used to be available.

 

I guess the best way you could look at this is GW can't make everyone happy.

 

And I play Ultra's too, and if you really want to go back and forth about Strike Force Ultra vs Deathwing Detachment.... well I would trade 'first turn deep strike' to get rid of the ridiculously restrictive formation that SFU is stuck in right now. 

 

I really hope this thread isn't just going to be another complaint thread about how you used to be able to deepstrike in turn 1... because the Deathwing is very competitive. I've won with SFU, but I've completely clocked a few people with Deathwing because of the new allowances afforded by the Ravenwing compliment. 

 

Please keep in mind that when the next codex rolls out, you may be trading in the competency of this one for the ability to roll get first turn reserves, and personally I think that would stink. 

[Blank05]

I've been playing DA since 1998, does that qualify me to chastise you?

 

lol, j/k!

Haha, by all means, please chastize! :D

 

I really hope this thread isn't just going to be another complaint thread about how you used to be able to deepstrike in turn 1... because the Deathwing is very competitive. I've won with SFU, but I've completely clocked a few people with Deathwing because of the new allowances afforded by the Ravenwing compliment.

 

Please keep in mind that when the next codex rolls out, you may be trading in the competency of this one for the ability to roll get first turn reserves, and personally I think that would stink.

While that is the heart of the matter, this thread was really just to get out my frustration of being the test codex all the time. I really like our new dex, but the fact that it keeps getting stripped down and sold for parts to buy a new dex, rather than just working on our existing framework, stinks as well.

[Loar]

Im really upset at the fact the lib conclave isn't actually in the dex too.  It technically is probably still valid, but I don't know why it wasn't included and can't be taken as part of a lion's blade force, like you can with the gladius in vanilla SM.  Also it should have been updated to allow just generic libs as well and not force ezekiel to be taken, as its just really hard to use with ravenwing now as a result.  There, thats my gripe about the dex out in the open, Vent complete.

 

I hope we get the rumoured DA vs. Tzeentch campaign that can aleviate some of these frustrations, fingers crossed.

[IndigoJack]

The thing is...they want us to synergize with ravenwing.  Deepstriking on turn one, while the bikes are still in our deployment zone, doesn't  really synch with that.

To be fair, all RW have scout, so if they're still in your deployment zone it's your fault. The problem I always had was that they died too quickly. Now with the RW special rule, they're far more survivable, but now I have to wait longer to bring in the DW.

[DAG42]

According to the GW store here in Okc the Librarian conclave is still valid.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

This time C:SM was the test codex. They invented the demi-company and we perfected it.

As a DW player, I never used 1st turn assault. It was always better to bid my time, let the enemy forget that there were still terminators to come or let him cower in fear because terminators would come.

[Master Avoghai]

 

The thing is...they want us to synergize with ravenwing. Deepstriking on turn one, while the bikes are still in our deployment zone, doesn't really synch with that.

To be fair, all RW have scout, so if they're still in your deployment zone it's your fault. The problem I always had was that they died too quickly. Now with the RW special rule, they're far more survivable, but now I have to wait longer to bring in the DW.

They have scout AND the RWAS has a 12" teleport homer range including from the LS...

[SnakeChisler]

Im really upset at the fact the lib conclave isn't actually in the dex too.  It technically is probably still valid, but I don't know why it wasn't included and can't be taken as part of a lion's blade force, like you can with the gladius in vanilla SM.  Also it should have been updated to allow just generic libs as well and not force ezekiel to be taken, as its just really hard to use with ravenwing now as a result.  There, thats my gripe about the dex out in the open, Vent complete.

 

I hope we get the rumoured DA vs. Tzeentch campaign that can aleviate some of these frustrations, fingers crossed.

They've updated the download

 

It now refers to Focused Interromancy so yes its fully valid and will be a staple of a lot of lists especially competition ones

 

That Invisible Deathstar bothering you no problem just mind wipe them

 

That Deamon Prince bugging you well mind worm old goat legs

[plasmaspam]

I've no hesitation in saying I'm underwhelmed with this codex.

 

Greenwing pleases me - for once they have been shown some respect, and the more competitive players are all now saying there is a reason to play them.

 

Ravenwing - yeah ok. They're powerful and playable. But the formations are just contrived, and they persisted with the RW Attack Squadron idea which may be competitive but for me feels artificial and a bit forced. Yes, you can ignore the formations, by and large I do, but I'd argue there are better, fluffier, and more fun formations that can and should have been offered.

 

Deathwing - forcing DeathRaven upon us is a major let down for me. Removing T1 deep strike just to hand it to someone else, regardless of the SFU constraints, is annoying. Again the formations and detachments are very contrived and clunky IMHO. Poorly thought out.

 

Overall, I'm disappointed in the door effectively being closed on Forge World. Respect to those who argue the codex is designed and intended to be self-contained. My question then is - Why bother selling IA books and products then?

 

I accept that many will be pleasyed we have a "competitive " Codex. I feel this has come at the expense of flavour, relevance and heritage in some areas that are, to me at least, important.

[Ania Redfang]

 

Overall, I'm disappointed in the door effectively being closed on Forge World. Respect to those who argue the codex is designed and intended to be self-contained. My question then is - Why bother selling IA books and products then?

 

How is the door shut on Forge World? As far as I'm aware you can still use IA2 units as before, nothing's changed there.

 

Cheers

TCOTH

[Isual]

FW units can`t be part of an RWSF or DWSF due to the lack of the ravenwing/deathwing rule. Lion sword is for specific units only.

The only remaning option is a standard CAD.

But thats a restriction all formations share.

I have no problem with that.

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

 

 

 

Overall, I'm disappointed in the door effectively being closed on Forge World. Respect to those who argue the codex is designed and intended to be self-contained. My question then is - Why bother selling IA books and products then?

How is the door shut on Forge World? As far as I'm aware you can still use IA2 units as before, nothing's changed there.

 

Cheers

TCOTH

I believe he is referring to the strict formation wording that doesn't leave dreadnought for interpretation for example.

[plasmaspam]

FW units can`t be part of an RWSF or DWSF due to the lack of the ravenwing/deathwing rule. Lion sword is for specific units only.

The only remaning option is a standard CAD.

But thats a restriction all formations share.

I have no problem with that.

Which is now constrained by the respective GM's losing "counts-as" troops from their rules, another thing that disappoints me.

[seethe]

A deredeo would go nicely in a Lion's Blade Detachment :/

[Roland]

FW has said their vehicles can be used in Formations,taking up the closest match for the vehicle (I believe they specifically mentioned Sicarans taking the same spot as predators). Also I'd expect a FAQ from FW giving Contemptors and any venerable Dread the DW rule, and units like the Xiphon/LS Tempest/Javelin the RW rule.

[plasmaspam]

^^^ This I would wholeheartedly welcome if it gets the seal of approval. There will still be people out there who won't allow it. I was going to call them rules-lawyers, but to be honest I could see their point.

 

GW has created a mess here.

[Master Avoghai]

Actually I don't feel the loss of DS turn 1 really that important and annoying.

 

I've actually almost never used the turn 1 DS as the rest of my army was often too far to support the DSing squad turn 1 and it let all the opportunity to y opponent to handle one opposition after another.

 

What really bother me is the fact that BOTH formation/detachment at our disposal have the compulsory Keep them in DS reserve.

 

I would have perfectly understood if the DW strike Force had a rule like "all unit of this formation that are placed in reserve must enter by Deep Strike and enter all in the same time"

 

But obliging all of the squad to enter in reserve is a non sense IMO.

 

It creates a double use with the redemption force that have the same restriction.

It prevents you to play LR, squads of venerable dread and Non-TDA DW characters such as Ezekiel or Asmodai...

 

DS turn 1 has no importance. Compulsory DS reserves ARE important.

[plasmaspam]

DS turn 1 has no importance

You are wrong.

 

I present my opinion as fact seeing as you took the same liberty. If you want to make a better argued and presented case then I'm all ears.

[SnakeChisler]

You can take forgeword in a CAD if your opponent is ok with it

 

Its not going to be updated if it was then stuff like the Mortis would have made it into the codex and this I think is deliberate, while larger point games with Imperial Knights are quite interesting this and the SM codex are geared at round the 1500 mark.

 

For that you can get a Death Raven force or a Lions Blade + Formation

 

To get free transports you really need to go skinny on loadout or up the points to 2000+ and you'd probably set it as a double board 3000 point game to take some formations

 

Pure Deathwing were always a bit of a luxury both in terms of points and as soon as Progressive objectives came in practicality

 

As a Ravenwing player who has Terminators I just can't figure out why your not overjoyed to have some decent mobile backup + the support squad with interceptor covering your backs.

[notmattlythgoe]

 

DS turn 1 has no importance

You are wrong.

 

I present my opinion as fact seeing as you took the same liberty. If you want to make a better argued and presented case then I'm all ears.

 

 

Except he did give reasons of why he thinks DS on turn one is not a good choice...

[Master Avoghai]

What I mean is actually that both solutions make DWSF playable alone and not auto loose

 

 

BUT if you allow DS turn one, you still won't be able to play half of the choices available to DW : dedicated transports, squads of venerable dreads or non TDA DW models.

 

On the other side, if you modify the wording of the "summoned to war" special rule, you'll still won't be able to DS turn one but you'll have enough type of squads to deal with while the rest is arriving, including the use of Belial's teleport homer.

 

In one case you DS turn one but you have only terminators on foot, in the other you DS turn 2 but you have various choices...

 

However I think that DS turn one would be perfect for a DW redemption Force as it's a support formation and not an army of its own.

[plasmaspam]

 

 

DS turn 1 has no importance

 

You are wrong.

I present my opinion as fact seeing as you took the same liberty. If you want to make a better argued and presented case then I'm all ears.

 

Except he did give reasons of why he thinks DS on turn one is not a good choice...

Agreed - plenty of reasons were presented on why the commenter chooses not to use T1 DS.

 

No argument was presented that backs up the assertion that "DS turn 1 is of no importance" - A definitive statement not qualified by the opinions offered.

 

Devils Advocate - no importance in T1 deep-striking split-firing vengeful-striking alpha strikers?

[Stormxlr]

 

DS turn 1 has no importance

You are wrong.

 

I present my opinion as fact seeing as you took the same liberty. If you want to make a better argued and presented case then I'm all ears.

 

Well actually both of you are right. T1 DS is very important if you are playing pure DW that is not foot slogging or mechanized.

 

You can take forgeword in a CAD if your opponent is ok with it

 

Its not going to be updated if it was then stuff like the Mortis would have made it into the codex and this I think is deliberate, while larger point games with Imperial Knights are quite interesting this and the SM codex are geared at round the 1500 mark.

 

For that you can get a Death Raven force or a Lions Blade + Formation

 

To get free transports you really need to go skinny on loadout or up the points to 2000+ and you'd probably set it as a double board 3000 point game to take some formations

 

Pure Deathwing were always a bit of a luxury both in terms of points and as soon as Progressive objectives came in practicality

 

As a Ravenwing player who has Terminators I just can't figure out why your not overjoyed to have some decent mobile backup + the support squad with interceptor covering your backs.

Ah you see you said it yourself, "As a Ravenwing player"  As a Deathwing player with 3k points of just Deathwing and nothing else. Im not overjoyed because I did not care for mobile back up. I could stand there and take punishment with my 12" FNP Banner (which is now gone and replaced by mostly useless generic sacred standard). At 1850 I could field 31 Terminators and put 1 unit on each objective and each unit would be close enough to one other unit to support each other.

I could field Land Raiders, I could take any FW unit that fits DW fluff. I could start on the board or I could DS, I could field empty LR and DS. I had ObjSec. I had choice and options of strategy, now im very limited at what I can do and while units became better overall DW became far far worse than they have ever been to the point of being almost invalidated.

 

DW were a self contained army. ( proven on multiple occasions in fluff ). This is the reason I keep on using 6th ed codex to play my Deathwing and use 7th edition codex to play greenwing. I dont own any ravenwing except 3 bikers from DV set.