New Codex Gripe(s) *Yes, a bit of a rant*

[Chaplain Lucifer]

But now they are not, so you have to adapt and overcome.

If you already took FW units that you think they fitted DW fluff, why not take RW units because they fit fluff and help your army.

You don't have to view the new DW as a closed door, you can see it as a window to explore other forms of playing. DW are only invalidated if you insist of playing it as a self contained army, if you play it like it's now meant to be, then the boundaries are off and you'll have enjoyable games and success.

[plasmaspam]

But now they are not, so you have to adapt and overcome.

If you already took FW units that you think they fitted DW fluff, why not take RW units because they fit fluff and help your army.

You don't have to view the new DW as a closed door, you can see it as a window to explore other forms of playing. DW are only invalidated if you insist of playing it as a self contained army, if you play it like it's now meant to be, then the boundaries are off and you'll have enjoyable games and success.

How are they meant to be played then, other than the monobuild DWSF + RWAS? Because we are now effectively and arbitrarily blocked from exploring the opportunity to play pure DW, a fluffy option open to us for a number of years.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

 

But now they are not, so you have to adapt and overcome.

If you already took FW units that you think they fitted DW fluff, why not take RW units because they fit fluff and help your army.

You don't have to view the new DW as a closed door, you can see it as a window to explore other forms of playing. DW are only invalidated if you insist of playing it as a self contained army, if you play it like it's now meant to be, then the boundaries are off and you'll have enjoyable games and success.

How are they meant to be played then, other than the monobuild DWSF + RWAS? Because we are now effectively and arbitrarily blocked from exploring the opportunity to play pure DW, a fluffy option open to us for a number of years.

 

That's the point. People insist on pure DW that was never competitive. People insist on pure DW even after past Codex they opened the options of having DW plus everything else

Now they are given DW+RW that works like a clock. It doesn't mean that you have to take it 50/50. It can be a full DW army plus a few bikes/speeders.

You can also have a small CAD plus DW or plus DW+RW. "The sky is the limit" Why keep dwelling on the past, being negative, instead of exploring what is good about the new Codex.

I have seen this happen at every Codex. Every DA Codex was better than the predecessor, yet there are those that always prefer the old Codex because they still cling on what they know, or sometimes they just prefer to be miserable.

Codexes are fickle mistresses they will never make everybody happy, and they will always have flaws. This one is the best to date, there are people reporting in that they are surprised on how powerful it is/feels.

Why keep rehashing the same old "but I don't get this and that " and makes lemonade with the lemons and omelets with the eggs?

This Codex gives us both lemons and eggs, so we can actually make a nice meal out of it.

[Frater Cornelius]

Most of the Formations are indeed contrived and I do not like using them. They eat up 'sources' (where I play you are limited to two sources, competitive or not). I generally dislike Formations, because they are rather restrictive.

However, outside of Black Knights and the Dark Shroud I fail to see any area where C:SM wouldn't be superior. That is why I am so mad at the loss of the Sacred Standards. They gave something unique to the army and opened up new play styles that could not be replicated elsewhere. In that respect, I think the 6ed book was better. It made me feel unique.

The new book may be more optimized, but it is also in line with SM and overly reliant on Formations to be unique.

 

I am having an identity crisis over here. I bitterly remember saying to a buddy that I will keep playing on DA regardless. Now I feel that I need to swallow those words, because I did not expect that they would become so... well, generic is the wrong word. Contrived and lack of its own niche would be more accurate. Even list-building is more complicated, because it is harder to create an overarching battle plan for me. Every time I make a list I need to admit to myself that one of the SM CT do it better (usually UM, WS or IF).

I mean, the book can be improved by allying in SM, but not vice versa.

 

I feel sad :(

[WellSpokenMan]

The 7th Edition book really lost very little.  PFGs, Sacred Standards, and 1st Turn Deathwing.  In exchange, we got significant buffs to our unique units and our shared units are now equivalent to Space Marine counterparts.  Is it as good as I would like, no it's not.  There is plenty of room for improvement.  However, I don't understand how someone could have been content with the 6th Edition book with it's numerous units that were outright inferior or more expensive than direct SM counterparts and then be upset over this book.

 

I disagree that allying in DA wouldn't help SM.  RWBKs, particulary the command squad, are possibly the best power armored unit in the game.  Deathwing Knights are far Superior to a Terminator Assault Squad for a mere 10 points.  AFAIK, SM has no interceptor units. I think you will see Ravenwing Support Squadrons in SM lists.  I am not saying that SM doesn't offer us more than we offer them, but it isn't completely one sided.

 

Like it or not, DA is a finesse army.  You will not be able to win your games in the list building stage.  However, if you were able to have success with the 6th edition codex, you should be able to outplay your opponent with this codex.  The Lion was a master tactician and the Dark Angels were the first legion.  All Space Marine tactics started with us.  Imo, a finesse codex suits us. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, Int-Chap with MoR + RWBK with a Chapter Master is the only thing that is an improvement, I give you that. TDA are garbage, no matter what faction. I still consider SW TDA the best due to ranged weapon + free SS. Interceptor is a Formation, so you will not see much of it outside of very specific lists since tournaments and some metas limit your amount of sources. Not that SM need it. TFC fortifying cover and Chapter Master durability neuter most alpha strikes I have come against.

 

I agree that DA are a finesse army. However, that does not change the fact that I need to jump through hoops to achieve the same as SM, just because C:SM is better written. It is less contrived and is not reliant on Formations or gimmicks. I still stand by the fact that RWBK and DS are the only two units worth noting. The rest is inferior, performance-wise, or is just bad to begin with (DW are superior to SM TDA but a shiny turd is still a turd).

 

And finally, I am not saying 6ed was superior. It was not. It was inferior. But I still preferred it because it had something unique. Something SM could not replicate. Right now, SM can do almost everything DA can, almost all of it better. Those things that DA do better (like Overwatch or Intercept) are too specific or contrived to be worth noting. I am all about uniqueness and being a special snowflake. DA lost that, if you ask me.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Some of you may not remember but we had a rule that every non stubborn squad had to roll a D6 at the beginning of the turn. On a 1 It could only shoot... And we had to buy a vet sgt and stubborn to the vet sgt. A tactical squad had to cost 170 points... it would go for 200 and something after upgrades and rhinos.

Nowadays, not only we get a stubborn, we get improve overwatch, and possibility of free transport... for a lot points less. Should we go back to the old v3 Codex because back then we could field a DW army, with termies as troops without Belial? And how awesome were those termies... 300 points for 5 terminators without even the 5+ inv save and with Heavy 3 Assault cannon.

http://fortressofunforgiven.homestead.com/CH07_01LoU_013_A.html

http://fortressofunforgiven.homestead.com/files/Img_Ch07_01LoU_DW013_001.jpg

Do I miss it? Hell no. I have nostalgia because it was my first DW army.... but I prefer this one:

See the Speeders poking? they help terminators doing their job. :)

[plasmaspam]

^^^ so we should submit to the errors of today, because they aren't as bad as the errors of yester-year?

 

And no, we shouldn't go back to 3rd edition. We should expect a good codex, in all dimensions, for the money we pay.

 

You like the codex, you are enthusiastic for DeathRaven.

 

I don't like it, and I am not as enthusiastic.

 

I object to the constraints this book imposes upon list-building.

 

You do not, it seems, if I may conclude.

 

Are you right and I wrong? Or vice versa?

 

If you are happy and enthusiastic, I am happy for you. Unfortunately I feel let down yet again by a company that wants my money. I am disappointed that you seem annoyed at people like me who don't share your enthusiasm, and who are trying to come to terms with changes to a hobby that they are emotionally invested in, yet have little control over.

[WellSpokenMan]

^^^ so we should submit to the errors of today, because they aren't as bad as the errors of yester-year?

Since their isn't anything we can do about it other than whinge, I'd say yes.  Take our lemons and make lemonaide, or lemon bars, or lemon meringue pie, or lemon pound cake.  Because lemons are versatile, as long as you are willing to do something other than suck on them and complain that they aren't oranges.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

^^^ so we should submit to the errors of today, because they aren't as bad as the errors of yester-year?

Since their isn't anything we can do about it other than whinge, I'd say yes.  Take our lemons and make lemonaide, or lemon bars, or lemon meringue pie, or lemon pound cake.  Because lemons are versatile, as long as you are willing to do something other than suck on them and complain that they aren't oranges.

 

 

You know, I would accept gripes like I did with 6ed if the book was unique. Imperial Guard come to mind. They may lack in some areas, but no book can replicate their play-style so there is incentive to play them. For me, the only unique things left for DA are badass names and concepts (and BK). The whole thing isn't about DA having weak areas. It is that another book does the strong ones better. At least for me that is the issue at hand.

[Master Avoghai]

That's the point. People insist on pure DW that was never competitive. People insist on pure DW even after past Codex they opened the options of having DW plus everything else

Now they are given DW+RW that works like a clock. It doesn't mean that you have to take it 50/50. It can be a full DW army plus a few bikes/speeders.

Please note that if I agree with you on the fact that a little touch of RW doesn't hurt I have one point of disagreement :

 

The fact is termis have the Dedicated LR option but neither of the two formation we have allow us to field them

We have a venerable dread squad option but it's forbidden to play more than one dread per squad in both the 2 formations.

 

What I regret (though loving this codex) is not the DS turn one or such is simply that both DW formations prevent us to play DW options.

[SnakeChisler]

Most of the Formations are indeed contrived and I do not like using them. They eat up 'sources' (where I play you are limited to two sources, competitive or not). I generally dislike Formations, because they are rather restrictive.

I am having an identity crisis over here. I bitterly remember saying to a buddy that I will keep playing on DA regardless. Now I feel that I need to swallow those words, because I did not expect that they would become so... well, generic is the wrong word. Contrived and lack of its own niche would be more accurate. Even list-building is more complicated, because it is harder to create an overarching battle plan for me. Every time I make a list I need to admit to myself that one of the SM CT do it better (usually UM, WS or IF).

I mean, the book can be improved by allying in SM, but not vice versa.

I feel sad

Formations don't eat up sources

If you play to a 2 source limit that would be anything from the DA codex

+ say an imperial Knight

So a Ravenwing Strike Force + a Deathwing Strike Force + a support Squad Formation = 1 source

Even adding in the Librarius Conclave your still on 1 source and that source is Codex Dark Angels

The DA SM Necron Eldar & AD-Mec/Skitarii codices all work very differently to your standard BRB CAD

So example my 1 source list would be

Ravenwing Strike Force (Primary)

Deathwing Strike Force

Liberian Conclave

Support Formation

Example my 2 Source list would be

DA - Codex DA

Ravenwing Strike Force (Primary)

Deathwing Strike Force

Legion of The Damned - Codex Legion of the Damned

Squads * 3

etc etc

[Chaplain Lucifer]

If you are happy and enthusiastic, I am happy for you. Unfortunately I feel let down yet again by a company that wants my money. I am disappointed that you seem annoyed at people like me who don't share your enthusiasm, and who are trying to come to terms with changes to a hobby that they are emotionally invested in, yet have little control over.

Nobody is totally right, nobody is totally wrong. I am not annoyed, but you must understand my position.

I am a moderator, it's my job to push people to be positive. I give leeway for ranting of course, but I try to steer people into positiveness, because this is a hobby and it's not a cheap one, so instead of leaving people to despair I try to make them realize there is no need to despair as long one accepts GW is in control and either we sing to their tune or we let negativity lead us away from the hobby.

Furthermore I have been here as a Frater and Mod for so many years//Codexes that I realized that if I leave negativity unchecked it only adds up, so I try to instill optimism even if that makes me the bad guy because I prefer to be the bad guy that tries to fight negativity/despair than let it grow and turn the DA forum a bitter place to be to those that enjoy the hobby.

[WellSpokenMan]

 

 

^^^ so we should submit to the errors of today, because they aren't as bad as the errors of yester-year?

Since their isn't anything we can do about it other than whinge, I'd say yes.  Take our lemons and make lemonaide, or lemon bars, or lemon meringue pie, or lemon pound cake.  Because lemons are versatile, as long as you are willing to do something other than suck on them and complain that they aren't oranges.

 

 

You know, I would accept gripes like I did with 6ed if the book was unique. Imperial Guard come to mind. They may lack in some areas, but no book can replicate their play-style so there is incentive to play them. For me, the only unique things left for DA are badass names and concepts (and BK). The whole thing isn't about DA having weak areas. It is that another book does the strong ones better. At least for me that is the issue at hand.

 

I guess i don't understand what was good about the 6th Edition codex.. The only thing it did better than anybody else was ally with Guard.  It never felt unique to me, as White Scars were superior bikes, every other chapter had better Chapter Tactics and wargear for their line units (at least we are better off than Ravenguard now), almost every unit we had that was different than C: SM was crap other than the two Knight units.  Terminators were (and are) massively overpriced, so the one thing that we were arguably good at sucked.  This is if you feel that DW were superior to SW and GK, which I think is debatable.

 

I agree that there are issues with the current book.  I just can't see it as worse than the previous one..  For someone making the upgrade from Dark Vengeance, I can understand the disappointment, but for someone who played the 6th Edition codex to be so down on this one confuses me.  It's your right to be disappointed with the codex and I can agree to disagree.  I do hope however that after the mourning period is over we can move past the negativity.  It just doesn't serve a purpose going forward.

[Frater Cornelius]

Again, not saying it is worse. I am saying that I like it less. Big difference.

 

Also, unfortunately every single Formation is a source here. I guess I should say not two sources but two Detachments then.

[twopounder]

So I had finally started to come to terms with the state of our First Company in regards to our new Codex. Yeah, it stinks, but whatever. Things be changin' and that's the way it is.

 

HOWEVER! I was talking to some friends down at the LGS about who they think has the best Terminators now and I learned that EVERY chapter is Adeptus Astartes has some way of Deep Striking their Terminators on turn 1, except for us.

 

Vanilla Marines: Strike Force Ultra Formation

 

Space Wolves: Wolf Guard Void Claws Formation

 

Blood Angels: Archangels Formation

 

Grey Knights: Nemesis Strike Force Detachment

 

Dark Angels: None

 

And that's just what I know about. Can I just take a second to express how irritating that is...?

 

As a long time Dark Angels Player(12 years) I'm am so sick of being the chapter that everyone takes from. Don't get me wrong, it used to be flattering that everyone wanted to be like us, but now it's just disheartening.

 

It all started with Plasma Cannons(at least as far as I can recall) in our Tactical Squads. It was something that made us unique. It wasn't much, but it was something. Then we gave up our secret to C:SM. Then went our Termy Troops, then our Bike Troops and now our first turn assault. And I know we've only had first turn assault since 5th Edition, but it was ours. It made us feared, nay, respected.

 

I'll admit, I don't know everything about 40k, so this is just from my (fairly) limited knowledge of this game. It was one thing when we shared our abilities with everyone(Troop Terms/Bikes, Plasma Tacticals, etc,) but now they're taking them away from us and I am getting really fed up.

 

Now, all that said, I will never give up on us, fellow unforgiven, but I had to get that off my virtual chest. Thanks for listening.

 

So you would take a turn 1 shotgun scatter over a turn 2 precision strike with twin-linked weapons and shoot/run run/shoot?

 

Pretty hollow argument to me, but whatever.

[Frater Cornelius]

As far as TDA go, Deathwing, along with Strike Force Ultra, is as good as they get in terms of special rules and DW outright win in terms of Deep Strike options. However, as I said, a shiny turd is just as bad, it just looks better. Terminators will never be a good idea to begin with as long as 1) Stormbolters do not get better output and 2) they do not get a survivability buff.

[SvenONE]

While I lament with the DW players out there I think it's time to let go of the Pure DW of 6th edition as a thing.  It's success really, to me, hinged on how many Landraiders you had in your list.  The biggest hit isn't really the loss of Belial's FOC changing ability, but rather the extremely rigid rules of the Detachment and the Formation.  The forced reserve rule is effectively a tax, so the savings we may have gotten from the DWT point drop is immediately put towards investing in something that keeps you from losing the game like a RW squad.

 

Now I'm gonna go and say something bold, if you want to run Pure DW run Unbound.  Off the top of my head, here are some differences (Wargear excluded) between running a 6th edition Belial-DW list, vs a 7th edition Unbound:

 

• Must either start on the board or roll for reserves
• No objective secured
• Chance for a warlord trait (Belial has fixed trait)
• No Deathwing Vehicle tax
• Not obligated to bring Belial
• Command squad available immediately

 

Now let's look at those same issues within the context of running a 7th Edition Unbound vs 7th Edition Formations/Detachments:

 

• Must either start on the board or roll for reserves -- Formation can't start on board, but can automatically arrive on a specified turn, detachment requires RW to automatically arrive, Unbound can start on board inside dedicated transports or on foot.
• No objective secured - No one has this
• Chance for a warlord trait - Unbound can't re-roll, Formation/Detachment can
• No Deathwing Vehicle tax - Confusion over Dedicated transports and deep strike in both Formation and Detachment
• Not obligated to bring Belial - Neither lists are obligated to bring Belial
• Command squad available immediately - Detachment has this, Formation requires obligatory models, Unbound is unbound!

 

To me it still seems a lot of people's issues stem from the Turn 1 deep strike.  More often than not I saw a Turn 1 deepstrike to be pretty risky, not to mention that Deep Strike in general is just a risky business in the first place.  The other issue is the fact that without the turn 1 deep strike we "auto-lose" due to the rules.  So Unbound takes care of this as you can now put your discounted terminators in your discounted landraiders.  

 

Sure we lost objective secured, but honestly I don't see this to be a huge issue.  If scoring was done at the end of a game turn as opposed to the end of a player turn, then maybe I'd see this truly as an issue.  But in my experience, objective secured is pretty seldom invoked.  The people I play with who usually talk about ObSec usually end up talking about the 1 in X amount of times where it truly mattered.

 

The only other things we seem to lose are the ability to run/shoot (which we didn't have in 6th) and Preferred Enemy (CSM) ZZzzzzzzz.  Are those really that big of a loss?

 

I understand the venting and everyone's well within their right to do so, but the time to adapt is now.

[plasmaspam]

So you would take a turn 1 shotgun scatter over a turn 2 precision strike with twin-linked weapons and shoot/run run/shoot?

 

Pretty hollow argument to me, but whatever.

I'd like the choice between the two, not be forced down one arbitrary path.

[twopounder]

 

So you would take a turn 1 shotgun scatter over a turn 2 precision strike with twin-linked weapons and shoot/run run/shoot?

 

Pretty hollow argument to me, but whatever.

I'd like the choice between the two, not be forced down one arbitrary path.

 

 

Well, something about people in hell wanting ice water. The codex is good, what you're doing is complaining about a free car that's blue instead of red. Pure Deathwing isn't competitive and stopped being fun with the last Eldar codex. You're ignoring what is possibly the most powerful codex to date because you can't get all your terminators killed on the first turn. We don't need pure deathwing or ravenwing. It's a nice addition but by no means a god given right. My advice is to be happy that it wasn't a 4th edition remix.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

So you would take a turn 1 shotgun scatter over a turn 2 precision strike with twin-linked weapons and shoot/run run/shoot?

 

Pretty hollow argument to me, but whatever.

I'd like the choice between the two, not be forced down one arbitrary path.

 

 

Well, something about people in hell wanting ice water. The codex is good, what you're doing is complaining about a free car that's blue instead of red. Pure Deathwing isn't competitive and stopped being fun with the last Eldar codex. You're ignoring what is possibly the most powerful codex to date because you can't get all your terminators killed on the first turn. We don't need pure deathwing or ravenwing. It's a nice addition but by no means a god given right. My advice is to be happy that it wasn't a 4th edition remix.

 

 

There is a difference between not liking a book and pointing out its flaws. It may be the best one to date, but as far as other books go, it still has more flaws that it should have had.

 

Edit: For me, most of the book can be described with 'X is good, but...'.

[twopounder]

Some of you may not remember but we had a rule that every non stubborn squad had to roll a D6 at the beginning of the turn. On a 1 It could only shoot... And we had to buy a vet sgt and stubborn to the vet sgt. A tactical squad had to cost 170 points... it would go for 200 and something after upgrades and rhinos.

Nowadays, not only we get a stubborn, we get improve overwatch, and possibility of free transport... for a lot points less. Should we go back to the old v3 Codex because back then we could field a DW army, with termies as troops without Belial? And how awesome were those termies... 300 points for 5 terminators without even the 5+ inv save and with Heavy 3 Assault cannon.

http://fortressofunforgiven.homestead.com/CH07_01LoU_013_A.html

Do I miss it? Hell no. I have nostalgia because it was my first DW army.... but I prefer this one:

See the Speeders poking? they help terminators doing their job.

Back when we had 52 point deathwing that weren't fearless and the assault cannon had 3 shots, wasn't rending, and blew up on triple 1's. Oh, and deepstrike was only available on 2/6 missions, triggered on a 4+, didn't auto come in on turn 4, and scattering onto something meant certain death. Or rolling double 6's. No mishap table, the unit is removed from the game. Ravenwing had a 6+ jink, no teleport homers, and were 40 something points each. Librarians had one psychic power (weaken resolve) and were leadership 9.

Yeah, no thanks. I'm happy with this codex.

[notmattlythgoe]

 

 

There is a difference between not liking a book and pointing out its flaws. It may be the best one to date, but as far as other books go, it still has more flaws that it should have had.

 

Edit: For me, most of the book can be described with 'X is good, but...'.

 

 

It seems to me that the problem is your gaming group, not the book. Most of the unique things that DA have are in the formations.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Yet Orks, Blood Angels, Raven Guard, Chaos and anyone else including Eldar and Tau can say the same. Anyone can find flaws and say, "Yes, it's good but has too many flaws."

And we can either poke at the flaws until a new Codex comes and we can find new flaws to poke at or we can make the best with what we have and just play nd have fun. :D

[twopounder]

 

 

 

So you would take a turn 1 shotgun scatter over a turn 2 precision strike with twin-linked weapons and shoot/run run/shoot?

 

Pretty hollow argument to me, but whatever.

I'd like the choice between the two, not be forced down one arbitrary path.

 

 

Well, something about people in hell wanting ice water. The codex is good, what you're doing is complaining about a free car that's blue instead of red. Pure Deathwing isn't competitive and stopped being fun with the last Eldar codex. You're ignoring what is possibly the most powerful codex to date because you can't get all your terminators killed on the first turn. We don't need pure deathwing or ravenwing. It's a nice addition but by no means a god given right. My advice is to be happy that it wasn't a 4th edition remix.

 

 

There is a difference between not liking a book and pointing out its flaws. It may be the best one to date, but as far as other books go, it still has more flaws that it should have had.

 

Edit: For me, most of the book can be described with 'X is good, but...'.

 

 

You realize this is the best codex in the game so far? It's beyond broken with the double shooting phase and psychic powers that rend entire units worthless. It has no hard counters. I'm seeing a lot of people complain over a book they haven't tried yet about non-issues that come down to vanity. You want to play a certain way. Guess what? I had a bunch of imperial artillery that was removed from the new IG codex. All that money and time... GONE. Your gripes are purely entitlement. I hope you see that.

 

I agree that there are a lot of typos and oversights as far as formation composition goes. But losing an noncompetitive force org shift does not make this book any less powerful.