New Codex Gripe(s) *Yes, a bit of a rant*

[Loar]

 

Im really upset at the fact the lib conclave isn't actually in the dex too.  It technically is probably still valid, but I don't know why it wasn't included and can't be taken as part of a lion's blade force, like you can with the gladius in vanilla SM.  Also it should have been updated to allow just generic libs as well and not force ezekiel to be taken, as its just really hard to use with ravenwing now as a result.  There, thats my gripe about the dex out in the open, Vent complete.

 

I hope we get the rumoured DA vs. Tzeentch campaign that can aleviate some of these frustrations, fingers crossed.

They've updated the download

 

It now refers to Focused Interromancy so yes its fully valid and will be a staple of a lot of lists especially competition ones

 

That Invisible Deathstar bothering you no problem just mind wipe them

 

That Deamon Prince bugging you well mind worm old goat legs

 

 

They didn't update the download.  I have the original one from the advent calendar and its the exact same rules and wording, it just applied differently as mind worm was a single power only Ezekiel knew (which is why he was forced to always be included in the formation).  I just want the ability to take normal libs on bikes with the existing one, just like SM can, i don't care if i don't get to harness on a +2, i just want the old formation without forcing ezekiel.  Not too much to ask for :P

[Brother Turok]

Shotgun scatter vsprecision strike for deepstrike?  That makes no sense.  I see a lot of arguments not making sense here.

 

 

 

6th edition codex:

split fire, twin linked, and turn 1 or 2 auto deepstrike.  Belial's group did not scatter.  If you used ravenwing units, Deathwing did not scatter as they had teleport homers.  Oh, and **OBJECTIVE SECURED**

 

7th edition codex:

the codex gives us much of the same rules wise but no turn 1 auto deepstrike.  Belial's unit still does not scatter.  If allied with ravenwing, Deathwing still do not scatter due to teleport homers.  The only buff for taking ravenwing is due to ravenwing exclusive buffs.  Only major difference is bs 2 overwatch and running after deepstriking/shooting/whatever.

 

 

 

Deepstriking is no more precise than before.  The only difference is that you HAVE to take certain units to make Deathwing viable were as befour you COULD if you wanted to.  From a rules standpoint, the new pros probably don't outweigh the cons.  Most folks responding against pure Deathwing players don't realize that many bought pure Deathwing forces as this was one aspect the dark angels were always about.  Now those armies are moot without purchasing more units.

 

I for one had adapted and never ran pure deathwing (yes grav is a major killer).  I always used deathwing with black knights and devastator squads.

 

I have been thinking about running a Deathwing army with a Skyhammer formation.  This way I don't auto lose on turn 1, I can drop on certain objectives or near cover, and devastate things.  Turn 2 the deathwing come in and hammer more death into their foe.

[notmattlythgoe]

Shotgun scatter vsprecision strike for deepstrike? That makes no sense. I see a lot of arguments not making sense here.

 

 

 

6th edition codex:

split fire, twin linked, and turn 1 or 2 auto deepstrike. Belial's group did not scatter. If you used ravenwing units, Deathwing did not scatter as they had teleport homers. Oh, and **OBJECTIVE SECURED**

 

7th edition codex:

the codex gives us much of the same rules wise but no turn 1 auto deepstrike. Belial's unit still does not scatter. If allied with ravenwing, Deathwing still do not scatter due to teleport homers. The only buff for taking ravenwing is due to ravenwing exclusive buffs. Only major difference is bs 2 overwatch and running after deepstriking/shooting/whatever.

 

 

 

Deepstriking is no more precise than before. The only difference is that you HAVE to take certain units to make Deathwing viable were as befour you COULD if you wanted to. From a rules standpoint, the new pros probably don't outweigh the cons. Most folks responding against pure Deathwing players don't realize that many bought pure Deathwing forces as this was one aspect the dark angels were always about. Now those armies are moot without purchasing more units.

 

I for one had adapted and never ran pure deathwing (yes grav is a major killer). I always used deathwing with black knights and devastator squads.

 

I have been thinking about running a Deathwing army with a Skyhammer formation. This way I don't auto lose on turn 1, I can drop on certain objectives or near cover, and devastate things. Turn 2 the deathwing come in and hammer more death into their foe.

Except with a Ravenwing Attack Squadron deep striking is massively more accurate. A full Attack Squadron can give you 4 separate units each with their own 12" no scatter bubble. Meaning on turn 2 you can drop terminators wherever you want.

[twopounder]

 

Shotgun scatter vsprecision strike for deepstrike? That makes no sense. I see a lot of arguments not making sense here.

 

 

 

6th edition codex:

split fire, twin linked, and turn 1 or 2 auto deepstrike. Belial's group did not scatter. If you used ravenwing units, Deathwing did not scatter as they had teleport homers. Oh, and **OBJECTIVE SECURED**

 

7th edition codex:

the codex gives us much of the same rules wise but no turn 1 auto deepstrike. Belial's unit still does not scatter. If allied with ravenwing, Deathwing still do not scatter due to teleport homers. The only buff for taking ravenwing is due to ravenwing exclusive buffs. Only major difference is bs 2 overwatch and running after deepstriking/shooting/whatever.

 

 

 

Deepstriking is no more precise than before. The only difference is that you HAVE to take certain units to make Deathwing viable were as befour you COULD if you wanted to. From a rules standpoint, the new pros probably don't outweigh the cons. Most folks responding against pure Deathwing players don't realize that many bought pure Deathwing forces as this was one aspect the dark angels were always about. Now those armies are moot without purchasing more units.

 

I for one had adapted and never ran pure deathwing (yes grav is a major killer). I always used deathwing with black knights and devastator squads.

 

I have been thinking about running a Deathwing army with a Skyhammer formation. This way I don't auto lose on turn 1, I can drop on certain objectives or near cover, and devastate things. Turn 2 the deathwing come in and hammer more death into their foe.

Except with a Ravenwing Attack Squadron deep striking is massively more accurate. A full Attack Squadron can give you 4 separate units each with their own 12" no scatter bubble. Meaning on turn 2 you can drop terminators wherever you want.

 

 

Exactly. Turn 2 means you come in on top of several ravenwing units with 2+/3+ rerollable jink that moved flat out and have a 24" teleport homer bubble. After the ravenwing got to open fire to clear out enemy units.

 

That's vs your pure deathwing 1st turn no teleport homer deepstrike.

[ValourousHeart]

I am having an identity crisis over here. I bitterly remember saying to a buddy that I will keep playing on DA regardless. Now I feel that I need to swallow those words, because I did not expect that they would become so... well, generic is the wrong word. Contrived and lack of its own niche would be more accurate. Even list-building is more complicated, because it is harder to create an overarching battle plan for me. Every time I make a list I need to admit to myself that one of the SM CT do it better (usually UM, WS or IF).

I mean, the book can be improved by allying in SM, but not vice versa.

@ twopounder - Can't hear you over the sound of White Scars doing it better due to the ability to Scout Rhinos with two Grav Cannons (Devs) allowing for very potent shooting T1. We both can play that game

The problem that you are facing is more to do with the type of army you want to play being done better with a different codex than in any deficiency of the DA codex.

The best advice I can give you in that situation is to play with the models that you want to play with, that you enjoy playing with. Then find the codex that allows you to play those models the way you want to play them.

People used to poke fun at me and say that it was funny that White Scars make a better RW army than RW does. My reply to them was… No, C:DA just doesn’t make a very good White Scars army. On the other hand White Scars didn’t even have the option to field my RW army.

So don’t feel bad, just play the list you want to play and forget about trying to tie your identity to the codex.

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

….

4) CAD rules that require the purchasing of unrealistic numbers of models

….

4 kind of confuses me.  Did you mean the Battle Company or something else.  AFAIK, CAD rules didn't change,

Have you tried running 14 razorbacks without buying the models first? I have 7, and may well convert 7 more, but the average player is going to have to pay $577.50 just for the razorbacks. That's outside of the minimum models required to unlock the special rule. Essentially, to fully unlock the Lion's Blade, you're paying over $1000. Granted, some of us already have the stuff, but that's giving us a substantial advantage over someone who doesn't. In effect, your wallet can give you an advantage over other players.

Ok so the unrealistic CAD you are referring to is foot note on the Lion’s Blade about taking 2 Demi Battle Companies.  No, that isn’t quite right; you are talking about the 2 Demi Companies with all of the options.

 

Since you brought up the average player, I would like to know what you think this person is like.  Do you really think the average player will look at our codex and say “Man, this game looks awesome; to bad I can’t start playing till I buy 2 Demi Companies with all the trimmings.”

 

But you are wrong about what it takes to unlock all of the Lion's Blade command benefits.  All you need is the following:  1 Master, 1Chaplain, 30 Tactical Marines, 10 Assault Marines, 10 Devastators, and 5 Scouts.  At which point you really don't have to buy any new Razorbacks, because while the formation could buy 10 Razorbacks, you really only need 6, but could use your 7th and let the scouts ride in it.

 

The Battle Company you are talking about would be the end goal, not the starting line.

[Kr80gZ]

I worked out last codex that things went much better and tactically superior when using Ravenwing and Deathwing together.

 

I started with a pure Deathwing Army, and filled all its weaknesses (manoeuvrability and scatter reliability) by using Ravenwing Black Knights.  

Now with this new codex I have expanded out the Ravenwing again (Darkshroud and Lanspeeders!) to assist in putting my Deathwing right where they need to be in order to get hold of that target that is, knows of, associated with or even just smelt the Fallen we are seek.

 

So far, so good.  :)

[twopounder]

 

 

 

….

4) CAD rules that require the purchasing of unrealistic numbers of models

….

4 kind of confuses me.  Did you mean the Battle Company or something else.  AFAIK, CAD rules didn't change,

Have you tried running 14 razorbacks without buying the models first? I have 7, and may well convert 7 more, but the average player is going to have to pay $577.50 just for the razorbacks. That's outside of the minimum models required to unlock the special rule. Essentially, to fully unlock the Lion's Blade, you're paying over $1000. Granted, some of us already have the stuff, but that's giving us a substantial advantage over someone who doesn't. In effect, your wallet can give you an advantage over other players.

Ok so the unrealistic CAD you are referring to is foot note on the Lion’s Blade about taking 2 Demi Battle Companies.  No, that isn’t quite right; you are talking about the 2 Demi Companies with all of the options.

 

Since you brought up the average player, I would like to know what you think this person is like.  Do you really think the average player will look at our codex and say “Man, this game looks awesome; to bad I can’t start playing till I buy 2 Demi Companies with all the trimmings.”

 

But you are wrong about what it takes to unlock all of the Lion's Blade command benefits.  All you need is the following:  1 Master, 1Chaplain, 30 Tactical Marines, 10 Assault Marines, 10 Devastators, and 5 Scouts.  At which point you really don't have to buy any new Razorbacks, because while the formation could buy 10 Razorbacks, you really only need 6, but could use your 7th and let the scouts ride in it.

 

The Battle Company you are talking about would be the end goal, not the starting line.

 

 

You're completely missing the point.

 

In order to make FULL USE of the benefits, you need 14 razorbacks. For example, if you take the full lion's blade with 2 demi-companies, but can't afford 14 razorbacks, then that is all you get. If my wallet is fatter, I get 14 razorbacks more than you. Just like that. No extra points. I just straight have 14 more armored twin-linked heavy bolters than you, that also capture objectives.

 

The incentive is to force players to spend more money to have an advantage. Since you can't afford them, you are automatically at a disadvantage. This is being built into a lot of CAD's, formations and even squads. If I can afford 3x vindicators (already have them), I can use a rule that you can't. If I can buy 3 predators (used to have them), I can use a rule that you can't.

 

This requires no extra points, only cold hard cash. I'm not sure if I can put it any more simply. It's a cash farming strategy. I would go so far as to say pay-to-win mechanic, but 40k has been pay to win since the beginning. This is just pay more to win more I guess.

 

The CAD itself only takes 1325 points to unlock the free rhinos, which still leaves 525 points for weapon upgrades in standard 1850 and a further 1175 points for a 2500 point tournament list. The value of the free razorbacks is 770 points. So against an opponent in a 2500 point game, you would be playing with 3270 points. If you can afford it.

 

So yes, this is a tactic people should take offense to in the DA codex (as well as others) as it breaks the balancing factors that are normally in place for expensive models (high point cost and force org limitations).

[ValourousHeart]

I don't believe I missed that point, because you only made it after my post.

Now this might have been the reason you made your original comment, but it wasn't the reason you gave in your post.

 

In your first post you said that the CADs required an unreasonable number of models.

In your second post you mentioned the 14 Razorbacks, and pointed out that you only had 7.

Now you are adding this "pay to win" point.

 

Like I said, this might have been on your mind the entire time, but it was not in your previous posts.

 

I personally don't expect to see this, because I don't expect but 1 in 100 players to have to not only the desire and funds to purchase all of that but also the attention span long enough to assemble, paint and play all of it.

 

But I'm sure your club will be completely different.

C:SM has been out 2 months already, and they can do this free transport trick too.

So how many times have you faced a full battle company since C:SM came out?

 

And here are what I think are better questions.

Since we already established that you have enough models to qualify for free transports with a Lion's Blade, how many time have you fielded that since the DA codex came out?

And second have you played any other lists in that same time frame?

[WellSpokenMan]

 

*snip*

 

 

Honestly, if you want to gripe about something, here are some much more legitimate concerns:

 

1) Massive amount of typos

2) Jumbled rules that are very poorly worded

3) Extremely low quality, outsourced artwork that I'd expect in a $9.99 book from a startup game company

4) CAD rules that require the purchasing of unrealistic numbers of models

5) Special rules applied to full units to force the purchasing of unrealistic number of models (instead of just improving the ability of a single model and not requiring a unit at all)

6) Desperate need of an FAQ that is highly unlikely to ever surface.

4 kind of confuses me.  Did you mean the Battle Company or something else.  AFAIK, CAD rules didn't change,

 

 

Have you tried running 14 razorbacks without buying the models first? I have 7, and may well convert 7 more, but the average player is going to have to pay $577.50 just for the razorbacks. That's outside of the minimum models required to unlock the special rule. Essentially, to fully unlock the Lion's Blade, you're paying over $1000. Granted, some of us already have the stuff, but that's giving us a substantial advantage over someone who doesn't. In effect, your wallet can give you an advantage over other players.

 

I understand the pay2win problem.  I am a Ravevenwing guy.  I have a bunch of bikes and speeders, but for transports I only have two Rhinos and a Drop Pod.  A Full Battle Company will not happen for me this edition.  What confused me was term CAD.  I took this to mean the Combined Arms Detatchment in the BRB.  You are obviously referring to the Battle Company and I agree with you on all points.  1 & 2 are particularly annoying because they were prevelant in the last codex and are poor business practice since a DA codex is going to be one of the first purchases a new player makes beyond Dark Vengeance. 

[SnakeChisler]

Again, not saying it is worse. I am saying that I like it less. Big difference.

 

Also, unfortunately every single Formation is a source here. I guess I should say not two sources but two Detachments then.

I'm sorry but the new books don't work like that

 

Tournaments don't work like that (and never did in 6th)

 

The GW shop down the road doesn't work like that (and never did in 6th)

 

A source is a Codex - it always was in every local tournament I've encountered and in all the major tournaments as well

 

These new 7th books reward you for using 1 codex with buffs, there meant to give you a new way of expanding and organizing your force

 

A classic example of this is the new Daemonkin book which melds Daemons and Chaos SM unified under one Chaos Power

 

There is no Deathwing as troops or Ravenwing as Troops any more and the ultimate Deathwing 1st strike only came about by a rule changes in 7th which allowed null deployment to a 6th edition codex.

 

This is 7th edition 40k we now have a 7th edition codex to match

[Frater Cornelius]

^I concede, because I have noticed that the German TO FAQ has been updated and indeed works on a 2-Faction limit and has no limit in detachments. Teaches me to not read it regularly... However, I am still not sure if I want Formations in a Green + Black army. Black + Bone, definitely though.

[SnakeChisler]

I think the new Codices with 7th edition are a lot to get your head round if your coming straight from the old 6th codex with no experience or knowledge of the type of organisation that has come out with recent releases.

Who would have thought for instance that we would be able to do Null Deployment, this was a huge change from 6th BRB to 7th BRB

Anyways I think we need this conversation again 6 months down the line with some battle experience under our belts

[Stormxlr]

What it comes down to is that I will keep on using 6th edition codex to play pure Deathwing.

I will use 7th edition codex to play Greenwing/Ironwing.

Simple as that.

[notmattlythgoe]

What it comes down to is that I will keep on using 6th edition codex to play pure Deathwing.

I will use 7th edition codex to play Greenwing/Ironwing.

Simple as that.

 

So you are going to use 6th edition codex strictly for Objective Secured? What other benefit would you get for using that codex?

[Master Avoghai]

 

 

What it comes down to is that I will keep on using 6th edition codex to play pure Deathwing.

I will use 7th edition codex to play Greenwing/Ironwing.

Simple as that.

So you are going to use 6th edition codex strictly for Objective Secured? What other benefit would you get for using that codex?

Being able to play LR as dedicated transport

Being able to play ven dread without paying for a drop pod.

Being able to use contemptor dreads from FW.

[notmattlythgoe]

 

 

What it comes down to is that I will keep on using 6th edition codex to play pure Deathwing.

I will use 7th edition codex to play Greenwing/Ironwing.

Simple as that.

So you are going to use 6th edition codex strictly for Objective Secured? What other benefit would you get for using that codex?

Being able to play LR as dedicated transport

Being able to play ven dread without paying for a drop pod.

Being able to use contemptor dreads from FW.

 

 

Then why not just go Unbound using the 7th edition codex?

[WellSpokenMan]

 

 

 

What it comes down to is that I will keep on using 6th edition codex to play pure Deathwing.

I will use 7th edition codex to play Greenwing/Ironwing.

Simple as that.

So you are going to use 6th edition codex strictly for Objective Secured? What other benefit would you get for using that codex?

Being able to play LR as dedicated transport

Being able to play ven dread without paying for a drop pod.

Being able to use contemptor dreads from FW.

 

 

Then why not just go Unbound using the 7th edition codex?

 

That's just crazy talk.  Makes a lot more sense to play with last edition's codex.  Another ridiculous idea is to just field two small units of scouts (110) or  even tacs for a CAD, fill out the Elites with what ever Dreads you want and Heavy Support with whatever Land Raiders you want, and then use the formation for your Deep Strikers.  This is also an insane idea that I only bring up to illustrate how crazy it is. 

 

(I'd also point out, just to be silly, that the points drop on DWT squads would take the sting out of points costs of the scouts)

[Master Avoghai]

Because unbound is just as stupid as AoS system without points system. And it's even more stupid when you re obliged to play like that when you want to play iconic DW units and you can't despite havin two formations to play Deathwing and none of them allow you to play land raiders or squads of venerable dread.

 

We play a game with rules and limitations. That's what makes the salt of the game : playing with the same set of rules and try to deal with it.

 

If I don't want rules I go playing playmobil and Lego...

 

What makes the success of an army/game system is the balance between restrictions and freedom.

 

2007 DA code was a flaw because it contained too many restrictions.

Unbound is not played because there are not enough enough restriction.

 

The new codex is an excellent one and maybe the best since angels of death. However forcing to deep strike the termis in both formation is plain stupid.

[notmattlythgoe]

Because unbound is just as stupid as AoS system without points system. And it's even more stupid when you re obliged to play like that when you want to play iconic DW units and you can't despite havin two formations to play Deathwing and none of them allow you to play land raiders or squads of venerable dread.

 

We play a game with rules and limitations. That's what makes the salt of the game : playing with the same set of rules and try to deal with it.

 

If I don't want rules I go playing playmobil and Lego...

 

What makes the success of an army/game system is the balance between restrictions and freedom.

 

2007 DA code was a flaw because it contained too many restrictions.

Unbound is not played because there are not enough enough restriction.

 

The new codex is an excellent one and maybe the best since angels of death. However forcing to deep strike the termis in both formation is plain stupid.

 

And using an old codex to play the exact same list as you would playing unbound isn't stupid?

[Master Avoghai]

I prefer a solution using old and restrictive set of rules rather than a solution saying "ignore the rules"

 

It's the difference between a human and a computer : a computer will prefer a stopped watch over a watch that is always late because the stopped watch will gives the exact hour 2 times a day while a late watch will never do so.

 

I prefer using the old version and play with the rules rather than breaking the rules...

[plasmaspam]

 

And using an old codex to play the exact same list as you would playing unbound isn't stupid?

Being able to play LR as dedicated transport

Being able to play ven dread without paying for a drop pod.

Being able to use contemptor dreads from FW.

Being able to T1 DS if you wish

Being able to field a CAD due to counts-as troops

[Elios Harg]

Unbound is part of the rules. It's in the rulebook. Using an old edition codex is actually more like ignoring the rules than playing unbound

[Kewl Imp]

I go to my local tournaments about once a month, but I've never seen anyone at all run a double demi company for free transports.

 

Personally I'm a Ravenwing player and I have been since I got the models, so I'm not too hurt by the new codex but I understand some of the complaints through out the thread. Deathwing is unable as a single formation, our standard tacticals mirror other chapters, and there are some rules I think they forgot to finish writing before publishing(or at least clarify with a FAQ). Being honest however, we now have access to grav which is a big bonus in my opinion, gave us a great chapter tactic(grim resolve), and took some units and made them worth while like the dark talon. I'm just happy they didn't take a nerf hammer to the entire codex rather than one formation.

[Stormxlr]

I love using Belial and never saw him as a crutch as most people do. And DW still have a tax now its just called Ravenwing.

 

 

 
And using an old codex to play the exact same list as you would playing unbound isn't stupid?

Being able to play LR as dedicated transport
Being able to play ven dread without paying for a drop pod.
Being able to use contemptor dreads from FW.
Being able to T1 DS if you wish
Being able to field a CAD due to counts-as troops

 

To add to that.

Being Able to play any Dread not just Ven Dread.

Being Able to field Heavy support LR

Being Able to field Heavy Support Deredeo from FW.

Being Able to field any unit that fits DW fluff without restrictions.

Being Able to field any variant of Land Raiders.

Being Able to use my nicely painted Banner of Fortitude and use it as one.

 

 

 

I go to my local tournaments about once a month, but I've never seen anyone at all run a double demi company for free transports.

 

Personally I'm a Ravenwing player and I have been since I got the models, so I'm not too hurt by the new codex but I understand some of the complaints through out the thread. Deathwing is unable as a single formation, our standard tacticals mirror other chapters, and there are some rules I think they forgot to finish writing before publishing(or at least clarify with a FAQ). Being honest however, we now have access to grav which is a big bonus in my opinion, gave us a great chapter tactic(grim resolve), and took some units and made them worth while like the dark talon. I'm just happy they didn't take a nerf hammer to the entire codex rather than one formation.

 

You got to play once a month it has been barely a month since codex SM and DA dropped. People simply didnt have time to buy,build and paint 14 Razorbacks. Wait a 3-4 month.

I never understood why people say "well at least they didnt mess everything up" When we pay such outrageous amount of money for such simple products they shouldn't even mess up a single dot. Yet they managed to not even go through the codex once.