New Codex Gripe(s) *Yes, a bit of a rant*

[Stormxlr]

 

 

 

 

so you can say you are taking a formation lets say DWRF and you get all the benefits of the formation except you can ignore rules you dont like?

 

Would you mind rewording that? I'm not understanding the question and want to provide a good answer.

 

Well from what I understood that you and Cactus said is that you can take an unbound formation? How can that be. Or do you mean you can take a Formation and Unbound something else? Like take Demi-Battle Company Formation and take 3 Unbound Vindicators?

 

 

The later. You can take an unbound army as your core, and take a formation along with it.

 

The unbound part of your army would count as the main detachment.

 

So you cant take Lions Blade or Demi Company formation as your core for example and take 3 unbound vindicators? you will loose obj sec?

[plasmaspam]

 

The contempt you have for anyone who won't submit to your opinion and assertions is very disturbing.

 

 

Sigh.

There there <<pats back>>

[notmattlythgoe]

 

So you cant take Lions Blade or Demi Company formation as your core for example and take 3 unbound vindicators? you will loose obj sec?

Correct. Unbound always counts as your main detachment.

[twopounder]

 

 

 

Except you lose more disadvantages by going unbound than just objective secured. You lose any of the bonuses that you get from any of the formations that you want to take.

Not true, and I see this misconception a lot. An unbound army does not receive the command benefits (of which Objective Secured is one of many) for any detachments but formation special rules remain in effect.

 

 

Correct. I'm going off of the assumption that they aren't taking formations by going unbound therefor not getting formation bonuses. However, I worded it very poorly. Thank you for correcting it.

 

so you can say you are taking a formation lets say DWRF and you get all the benefits of the formation except you can ignore rules you dont like?

 

 

That's not what he's saying at all. Unbound is NOT unstructured, it's only structured as much as you want it to be. If you make an unbound list with 1hq and 2 troops, is it really unbound? You don't HAVE to take 10 demon princes in unbound. You can take a regular FOC of terminators. I don't get how people think Belial and 4 terminator squads in unbound is broken, taboo, shunned, and mortifying when belial and 4 terminator squads in a DWSF is A-OK, normal, and fluffy. It's the same thing. Taking unbound is not terrible unless you're a terrible person with a terrible, broken, exploitive list.

 

If you're really intent in using an obsolete codex (and what will you do if your group says no?), then why not just ask to suspend Summoned to War. By doing so, you lose a turn of twin-linked weapons, highly accurate deepstrike, and the ability to run/shoot shoot/run. It's a trade off that is fair, and frankly, should be in the codex. This would be the better option before doing something as extreme as selectively using rules from older codices. You may even be able to convince a tournament organizer to allow it, since ravenwing can do the same thing and are much more competitive than deathwing. The kicker is that they still don't have objective secured so you're still going to have to take them as part of an Angel's Blade or put other units in if you don't want to get out capped.

 

 

 

 

Furthermore I have been here as a Frater and Mod for so many years//Codexes that I realized that if I leave negativity unchecked it only adds up, so I try to instill optimism even if that makes me the bad guy because I prefer to be the bad guy that tries to fight negativity/despair than let it grow and turn the DA forum a bitter place to be to those that enjoy the hobby.

This is back on page 2 of this rant thread, and nobody is goin to be able to say it better than he did.  If you'd rather have the problem then solutions than there is nothing anyboy can do for you. The Deathwing Strike Force sucks as written right now (so does the Ravenwing one I might add). I've already said this, so I don't know what more you want someone to say. This is the kind of internet slap fight that I'd expect from BoLS. I'm sorry that the codex isn't good enough for you and that all of the suggestions to help you be happier with it only appear to have made you angry at the wrong people. I give up. I will leave you all to your misery. Good luck to you.

The contempt you have for anyone who won't submit to your opinion and assertions is very disturbing.

 

 

Would you knock that off? Seriously, everyone here agrees that the deathwing were unecessarily gimped in formations and it's a debate about how it should be handled. Telling people that they are disturbing is a level unacceptable on these forums and has no place in this thread. Nobody here has an opinion that is disturbing and it's a personal attack that can derail the topic. So please just leave it at home.

 

 

 

So don't use the formations. problem solved. The funny thing is, the people complaining about unbound could use it to make the exact same structure as the 6th edition codex, thereby doing the same exact thing. I understand the hesitation to use unbound to run 10 demon princes or 20 fire raptors or something rediculous, but a standard deathwing formation seems to be exactly what unbound can accomplish without being over the top. The only thing you lose is objective secured, which means you're effectively cheating by using a 6th edition codex.

I think you miss the point : the point is to get a STRUCTURED source of army building that would keep balance.

I don't know how to compose a DW like force including LR and venerable without using the formation.

 

Why is it not cheating? Because the previous codex was used in this game system (v7). I would totally agree that, if the v8 is released it would better totally unfair to use a codex that never was played in this version. Here it's not the case.

 

On the opposite, claiming that unbound is the solution is like cheating to me. Why? Because you don't follow the same army building system than your opponent without any disadvantages. You don't have objective secured? But if you choose to use the v7codex you don't have any objective secured termi anyway.

 

I prefer using a imperfect set of rules rather than using no rules at all. To me, it's better.

 

But actually I have another solution :

 

What about using the DWSF formation BUT ignore the "summoned to war" special rules?

 

It means you follow the normal rules for reserve but you are not obliged to deploy via DS.

 

 

It's cheating because you're using a phased out rule set. Even if it was used this edition, it was not written for this edition, and was only used while a replacement was being made. 6th edition books were written with 6th edition in mind and were not intended for later editions. It just sometimes works out that they have to be used longer than everyone would like.

 

As above, unbound is as structured as you want it to be. Yes, you can pull some ripe shenanigans with it, but you can also build a very measured list that mimics anything else you would have. If the the list is atrocious, it's because you made it that way.

 

Though I do fully agree on simply asking to leave Summoned to War as optional, the same way Strike as One is.

[Stormxlr]

 

 

So you cant take Lions Blade or Demi Company formation as your core for example and take 3 unbound vindicators? you will loose obj sec?

Correct. Unbound always counts as your main detachment.

 

but demi company formation specifically states that you get objsec so they still keep it right?

[notmattlythgoe]

 

 

 

So you cant take Lions Blade or Demi Company formation as your core for example and take 3 unbound vindicators? you will loose obj sec?

Correct. Unbound always counts as your main detachment.

 

but demi company formation specifically states that you get objsec so they still keep it right?

 

 

No, because if you go unbound you can't take another detachment. Formations are different.

 

It's all in the BRB under Choosing Your Army.

[twopounder]

The truly sad thing is that this can all be fixed by adding these words to Summoned to War: "All units in this Detachment must either be placed in deepstrike reserve or deployed as normal."

 

That would fix everything.

[Stormxlr]

 

 

 

 

So you cant take Lions Blade or Demi Company formation as your core for example and take 3 unbound vindicators? you will loose obj sec?

Correct. Unbound always counts as your main detachment.

 

but demi company formation specifically states that you get objsec so they still keep it right?

 

 

No, because if you go unbound you can't take another detachment. Formations are different.

 

It's all in the BRB under Choosing Your Army.

 

Gah... i never even had to think of taking Unbound before.

[WellSpokenMan]

 

 

That’s just like, your opinion, man.

Unbound is just a way GW uses to not bother writing good rules.

In my case I cant use Unbound in most events and is usually looked down upon by other players. But they wont have a problem with me using my old codex, to play my DW, the way that I want, thats still completely legal.

You wouldn't play an unbound list because people look down on it? People look down on Unbound because they immediately jump to the thought of 10 Dreadknights or Tzeench Daemon Princes summoning hordes of monsters.

 

Talk to an organizer about approving your list. Plus you honestly think that a 6th edition Dark Angels codex that was written for an older generation is going to fare better than the new one with cheaper DWT, better DWK and more special rules?

 

If you are that gung ho about competitive events why are you even playing DA, a perennial loser in the competitive circles?

 

Why not show us your old 6th edition list and ask for input on making it work for this edition. This board is full of people who want to see DA rise up again rather than throwing the new book out to use a dated, and quite honestly, gimped codex just for a turn 1 deep strike and the extremeley overrated objective secured rule.

 

I can be competitive with my DW. Maybe some perennially loose but last time I got second place in local tournament. And usually am in top 3 or near.

Price of DWT is offset by Ravenwing tax. So they are basically back to what they used to cost.

Here is my winning list.

Belial- Sword of Secrets

DW Command Sqaud - 2x TH/SS, Sacred Standard of Fortitude, Assault Cannon

DWT- 1x TH/SS Assault Cannon

DWT- 1x TH/SS Plasma Cannon

DWT- 1x TH/SS Plasma Cannon

DWT- 1x TH/SS Cyclone Missile Launcher

DWT- 1x TH/SS Cyclone Missile Launcher

 

1850 points, CAD. Not unbound.

I DS turn 1 on every objective. Use Belial in DWCS to get precise DS and DS all other units within 12" of FNP banner. Hold the line and amass VPs. I can effectively hold 4 out of 6 objectives for the whole game while 2 free units are free to engage any target.

Find a way to take this list in 7th edition without auto loosing turn one.Without forcing me into buying models I dont want to have.Without using unbound.

 

 

Now this is interesting!  You might want to start a thread if you actually want advice though.

 

Belial- Sword of Secrets

DW Command Sqaud - 2x TH/SS, Sacred Standard of Fortitude, Assault Cannon -95 points saved 

DWT- 1x TH/SS Assault Cannon -15 points saved

DWT- 1x TH/SS Plasma Cannon -15 points saved

DWT- 1x TH/SS Plasma Cannon -15 points saved

DWT- 1x TH/SS Cyclone Missile Launcher -15 points saved

DWT- 1x TH/SS Cyclone Missile Launcher -15 points saved

 

170 to work with

Take an Apothecary for the DWCS - 5 Points (165)

Take a Interrogator Chap with Terminator Armor, Foe Smiter, and MoR - 185 Points (-20)

Drop one DWT Squad (probably one with a Plasma cannon since you can get that on the Tacs) +225 Points (205)

Take a DV Tac Squad split in two -170 (35)

35 points on random upgrades (melta bombs, Vet Sarges, Chainfist etc.)

 

If you don't have the Tacs for one squad, a DV one can usually be had for $15 US or so on Ebay.  With a couple extra $$ you can get a second Plasma Cannon to keep both 5 man Tac squads gainfully employed as long as they are within 36" of something.

 

The IC and tacs form a CAD, put the IC with the unit of your choice, prefferably one of the more mobile ones to get the use out of his special snowflake Storm Bolter.  Place the Tacs on turn one in cover and use the formation to drop everything on turn two.  If you don't want "the Hunt" Warlord Trait take the IC as the warlord in the formation and take the Belial  in the CAD and you'll probably get something better with the re-roll.

 

 

 

Furthermore I have been here as a Frater and Mod for so many years//Codexes that I realized that if I leave negativity unchecked it only adds up, so I try to instill optimism even if that makes me the bad guy because I prefer to be the bad guy that tries to fight negativity/despair than let it grow and turn the DA forum a bitter place to be to those that enjoy the hobby.

This is back on page 2 of this rant thread, and nobody is goin to be able to say it better than he did. If you'd rather have the problem then solutions than there is nothing anyboy can do for you. The Deathwing Strike Force sucks as written right now (so does the Ravenwing one I might add). I've already said this, so I don't know what more you want someone to say. This is the kind of internet slap fight that I'd expect from BoLS. I'm sorry that the codex isn't good enough for you and that all of the suggestions to help you be happier with it only appear to have made you angry at the wrong people. I give up. I will leave you all to your misery. Good luck to you.

The contempt you have for anyone who won't submit to your opinion and assertions is very disturbing.

 

I admit that I do not hold people who are more interested in their problems than solutions to those problems in very high regard. I'll find a way to live with myself though.

 

(Edited for math)

[Master Avoghai]

The truly sad thing is that this can all be fixed by adding these words to Summoned to War: "All units in this Detachment must either be placed in deepstrike reserve or deployed as normal."

 

That would fix everything.

And I'm saying not more than that...

[Elios Harg]

You can't take Unbound plus detachments (for us: Combined Arms Detachment, Ravenwing Strike Force, Deathwing Strike Force, Lion's Blade Detachment).

 

You can take Unbound plus formations (most of concern: Deathwing Redemption Force).

 

So, one can take 2 units of Deathwing Knights in LRCs then a DW Redemption force and it could pretty much play exactly like an old codex list in which you could put your knights and Land raiders on the table and DWA your shooty terminators. The units from the redemption force will DWA on turn 2, 3 or 4 and still get the run+shoot ability and PE: CSM. The knights and LRCs will not.

 

Of course, Unbound is not allowed in most organized play because tournament players are afraid of lists consisting solely of 8 wraithknights and stuff like that.

 

But in play amongst gaming groups or clubs, I see no reason why anyone would begrudge you playing a lost like that above.

[Stormxlr]

You can't take Unbound plus detachments (for us: Combined Arms Detachment, Ravenwing Strike Force, Deathwing Strike Force, Lion's Blade Detachment).

 

You can take Unbound plus formations (most of concern: Deathwing Redemption Force).

 

So, one can take 2 units of Deathwing Knights in LRCs then a DW Redemption force and it could pretty much play exactly like an old codex list in which you could put your knights and Land raiders on the table and DWA your shooty terminators. The units from the redemption force will DWA on turn 2, 3 or 4 and still get the run+shoot ability and PE: CSM. The knights and LRCs will not.

 

Of course, Unbound is not allowed in most organized play because tournament players are afraid of lists consisting solely of 8 wraithknights and stuff like that.

 

But in play amongst gaming groups or clubs, I see no reason why anyone would begrudge you playing a lost like that above.

Well I guess ill just have to be that one guy who will have to beg the TO to let me run Unbound to play pure Deathwing.

[JJD]

The truly sad thing is that this can all be fixed by adding these words to Summoned to War: "All units in this Detachment must either be placed in deepstrike reserve or deployed as normal."

 

That would fix everything.

I would prefer must be changed to can.

 

Or how about all units in this formation not embarked on a dedicated transport must be placed in deep strike reserve.

[twopounder]

 

The truly sad thing is that this can all be fixed by adding these words to Summoned to War: "All units in this Detachment must either be placed in deepstrike reserve or deployed as normal."

 

That would fix everything.

I would prefer must be changed to can.

 

Or how about all units in this formation not embarked on a dedicated transport must be placed in deep strike reserve.

 

 

It would break the spirit of what DW have been designed to do in this edition. They work with ravenwing, so their deepstrike ability is meant to cater to that. If they aren't being brought in by the ravenwing, then they are already in combat and on the field. 

[march10k]

 

 

 

 

So you cant take Lions Blade or Demi Company formation as your core for example and take 3 unbound vindicators? you will loose obj sec?

Correct. Unbound always counts as your main detachment.

 

but demi company formation specifically states that you get objsec so they still keep it right?

 

 

No, because if you go unbound you can't take another detachment. Formations are different.

 

It's all in the BRB under Choosing Your Army.

 

 

Correct. You gain none of the benefits of any detachment that a subset of your fielded model collection might otherwise qualify for.  I award you no points and may Him-On-Earth have mercy on your soul!

[Elios Harg]

Formations maintain their special rules. Objective Secured is a special rule of the Battle Demi-Company formation. Note it is *not* a command benefit unlike with a CAD. So, yes, if you field an unbound list that includes a demi-company, the demi-company units are still OS and have fire discipline, but not supreme fire discipline as that is a command benefit of the Lion's Blade.

[shabbadoo]

And that is what will allow me to run a Lion's Blade with its main benefits, and yet still field my foot slogger DA HQs/Special Characters with the one unit that was foolishly left out of our codex - Honour Guard  - from C: SM.  Or, I can run my jump packed DA HQs  (like an Interrogator-Chaplain who goes by the name Grand Master Sapphon) with Sanguinary Guard from C:BA.  In either case, I can run those units in the role of the DA Inner Circle Honour Guard we should have had.

[Master Avoghai]

I think the reasonning about formations and unbound is as follows

 

Since you declare you play unbound then all the units you field are part of no formation/detachment. Hence can't claim for special rules.

In the example above, you do not play a Demi company + 3 unbound vindicators.

You play an unbound army composed of 1HQ, 3 tactical, 1assault and 1 devastator + 3 vindicators.

 

Because after all, let's say I play an unbound army because I want to play 5HQ. What would prevent me to say :"ok I play a CAD with one HQ and 2 troops, my warlord is in this CAD, and I play 4 unbound HQ with this CAD" ? This way I could get the CAD bonus (re roll of the warlord traits + OS troops) AND the unbound bonus of playing whatever I want. No disadvantages on loss of OS for the unbound part since the HQ are not OS anyway.

[shabbadoo]

Unbound either means you are not followng any plan whatsoever, or simply that you are not following the Detachment/Formation method of choosing an army completely. The Lion's Blade itself is a Detachment, which is in turn made up of individual Formations; all of which may gain the Command Benefits of Company Support /Supreme Fire Discipline so long as the the requirements are met and the Detachment/Formation method of choosing an army is otherwise adhered to. As soon as you include something that does not adhere to that method of choosing an army you are going Unbound, and any Command Benefits (for any and all Detachments) are lost. The various Formations in the army, whether they are part of a Detachment or not, still keep their own special rules, because those benefits are gained simply due to fielding the required units together. Note that all of the Formations on pages 140-145 do not include Command Benefits, and that is because none of them have any. Only Detachments have Command Benefits, so only the additional Command Benefits rules listed under the Lion's Blade Stirke Force (p. 94-95), the Deathwing Strike Force (p. 158), and the Ravenwing Strike Force (p. 159) will be lost if you do not completely adhere to the Formation/Detachment method of choosing and army (i.e. building a Battleforged army). So, pile up the Formations in your army, and then throw in whatever else you want to. That extra stuff will not gain any benefits of any kind, but your individual Formations will still keep ALL of their own special rules. This allows for a lot of leeway in how one goes about building an army, including fielding "counts as DA" units from C: SM/C: BA that they want to, like Scout Bikers, LS Storms, Stormtalons, Stormravens, Honour Guard, Sanguinary Guard, etc.

[Master Avoghai]

Don't forget that formations "are detachments of their own"

 

Hence if you consider that detachments lose their special rules, then a formation lose their special rules as well.

 

Like I've said unbound means you pick whatever squads you want without restriction. Hence you are not fielding a Demi company with OS. You re fielding 3 tactical one assault and one deva with no special rules.

[notmattlythgoe]

Don't forget that formations "are detachments of their own"

 

Hence if you consider that detachments lose their special rules, then a formation lose their special rules as well.

 

Like I've said unbound means you pick whatever squads you want without restriction. Hence you are not fielding a Demi company with OS. You re fielding 3 tactical one assault and one deva with no special rules.

This is incorrect. When you decide to go unbound you are stating that your main detachment is the unbound part, hence losing command benefits. You may then take any formations that you want along with it. Its all in the BRB under unbound.

[shabbadoo]

Don't forget that formations "are detachments of their own"

 

Hence if you consider that detachments lose their special rules, then a formation lose their special rules as well.

 

Like I've said unbound means you pick whatever squads you want without restriction. Hence you are not fielding a Demi company with OS. You re fielding 3 tactical one assault and one deva with no special rules.

Regarding Command Benefits, Detachments, and Unbound armies:

 

"3) COMMAND BENEFITS

This lists any additional bonuses or special rules that apply to some, or all, of the units in this Detachment." p. 120

 

"Of course, in an Unbound army, these models are not bound by any Detachment restrictions and do not receive Command Benefits." p. 117

 

"Don't forget that Detachments are entirely optional and you can still select an army by taking any models from your collection, as discussed in the Unbound method- it just means that none of the models in your army receive Command Benefits." p. 118

 

Note that not all special rules are lost, just those that come from Command Benefits. 

 

Regarding Formations, Unbound armies, and special rules:

 

"Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation." p. 121 (sidebar)

 

That one is easy to miss.  I do hate how some really important rules are relegated to the sidebars, as it causes many people to skip over those sections (me included) due to sidebars traditionally having been used only to show examples of things rather than be the only place an actual rule is mentioned.  Anyways, that ought to put the final nail in the coffin of the whole "who gets what rules" in an Unbound army list.

[Master Avoghai]

Indeed thanks for clarification...

[shabbadoo]

It just occured to me that this also solves the main "issues" with playing pure Deathwing; specifically the whole "I have nothing in play on Turn 1, so I lose!" thing.  As any Deathwing units taken outside of either the Deathwing Strike Force or the Deathwing Redemption Force are considered to be Unbound units, you can deploy them *in play* on Turn 1- they just won't get the additional special rules. So, deploy those Deathwing Knights in Land Raiders as Unbound units, because they will -OH NO!!!- be losing those mainly shooty special rules benefits which they can't use anyways.  Or, take every Dreadnought in a Drop Pod you plan to use not as part of the Detachment/Formation, but as Unbound units, which means half of those pods (rounded up) will drop in on Turn 1.  There are a number of deployment options to make use of so far as the Unbound units in such an army are concerned.  I can actually run my pure Deathwing army lists pretty much as before, if I run a few units as Unbound.

[Master Avoghai]

Of course unbound is the solution against pure DW auto loose but the main issue is that unbound is a solution for campaign games. Not for pick up games.

 

I play in a club and also in stores, and I don't want to lose 1 hours of negotiations to find an opponent who accepts to play against an unbound army... And finally not find it because none of the players available think it's fair. It's already difficult to make people play with formations as they think some are OP but saying that IN ADDITION of a formation, you'll play unbound units... Gah :wacko:

 

Secondly I like to play fair games. What I mean by "fair" is that I play with the same rules as my opponent. We both have to use the same USR, we both have a codex, we both have to respect detachment to compose our armies and we both have to respect the same amount of points.

We can say that GW games are not that balanced but then why adding to the unbalance more unbalance?

 

My club is a "fun" club. No WAAC there. But nobody uses unbound. And I think it's not specific. Look at the army list sections here : nobody post unbound. Nobody uses it. Why?

Because we need rules and limitation : it's what make the game tasteful and nice. Having the same restriction as your opponent but manage to build an army and use it better than his.