Beating the Double-Demis

[Morticon]

So, the last few games ive played have all been with the new Double-Demi Company formations from the SM and DA (DA mainly) books.  The power these formations bring to the table is unrivaled.  

 

GW have really shifted the game to a place where it is unarguably unfair.  

 

For those of you that have missed the memo,the Demi-company is the core selection of the new Force Org type in both DA and the SM dexs. 

 

It's a Chappy or Captain, 3 Tacs, 1Dev, 1Assault - then depending on whether you're SM or DA, a host of other alternatives in the core PLUS a compulsory Auxiliary choice. 

 

Choosing the "Gladius" (SM) or the "Lions Blade" (DA) force orgs gives you formation bonuses. 

 

In the case of DA, you get full BS overwatch. 

 

But,....heres the big kicker. 

 

If you play 2x Demi companies - one with a chaplain, one with a captain, then any transports you take (Rhino, Razor or Pod) are FREE!!!

 

Yup. 

 

Free. 

 

You just pay for upgrades. 

 

The 1500 i've been using is this:

 

Captain - Mace of Absolution, Auspex

Chaplain - JP, Auspex

 

1x Dread - MM/HF

--Pod

 

5x Scouts - SRifles. (my choice for compulsory auxiliary choice)

5x Tacs - MG, Cmbi-melta

--Pod

5x Tacs - MG, Cmbi-melta

--Pod

5x Tacs - GG, Cmbi-melta

-- Razor - TLPG/LC

5x Tacs - GG, Cmbi-melta

-- Razor - TLPG/LC

5x Tacs - Flmr

-- Razor - TLAC

5x Tacs - Flmr

-- Razor - TLAC

 

5x Assault - 2Flmers

--Pod

7x Assault- Vet, Maul (or axe), JPacks

 

5x Devs - 2x GravCannons, Cherub

--Pod

5x Devs - 2x MM, Gravcannon

--Razor

 

(all of that for 1500).


Ive tabled or near tabled my opponents in all of the 5 games i've had.  The sad thing is that it really is how i LOVE playing my angels.  It's the first time i've used my Devs since 3rd ed too.  But, sadly....BA dont have this.


Now, the question is, what can we do??

 

Quite honestly, with the combination of pods, and razors they can get at 1500 there's not a lot we can do.  The access they have to grav makes 2+ a no-go.   The amount of MSU means we need an equally high amount of mobile high strength weapons.

 

While not everyone will use the pods, i'm of the opinion theyre shooting themselves in the foot if they dont.  Because of that, I'm going to (sadly?) suggest a little help from the inquisition in terms of Coteas - two reasons here.  One is obviously for the "We've been expecting you" - and the other is to try help secure the first time to get FB, and whittle down as many razors as we can. Next off, I'm thinking a Libby.  At 1500 it will be tricky getting in libby support to the DA, and unless the SM use the Libby Conclave as their auxiliary, the same goes for SM.   This means a little libby support could help us out in a variety of ways - because mobility will be key here, I suggest having him on a bike.  

So, 

 

Librarian - lvl2, Veritas (because we'll be rolling up to 4 times on the Strat table),Auspex (Option for Staff -though this usually kills me), Bike.

Coteas

 

We're at 235 already. 

 

Standard 2x Troops  - considering our Razors are better -albeit 4 times the cost of one of theirs <_< i'd say here is the way to go. 

 

2x 5x Tac - in Razors - TLPG/LC  (defs lasplas as we need all the dakka we can muster).

 

The special weapon in here is usually a no-brainer with the HF for me- but i dont believe its the right option in this case.  Id suggest Meltaguns or Plas/Grav -i'm leaning towards more shots than higher strength, so would suggest the latter two.  Usually I wouldnt bother upgrading these guys any further, but again, we need to kill what we shoot, dead. So, an additional 10 points for combis will go a long way. 

 

That's 180 each, so we're at 595 min. 

 

To help support Coteas' role in the mix, I suggest a squad of bikers - 2Grav, 1 MM attack bike - so we're looking at  148 there min. I'm partial to chunkier biker squads, as i hate losing a model and losing firepower.  But, will keep it barebones for now.  Same principle applies, so a combi weapon is golden here.

 

That ups it to 158 and means we're now sitting on 753.

 

I think the meltacide squads are GREAT, buuuuut, vs this type of list, a one-for-one trade off is not points efficient enough to combat the threat.  So, i recommend using the remaining 2 fast attack slots on one of three options - 

 

1: More grav bikers

2: Multi-melta attack bikers

3: Dual Typhoon speeders  (the 4xS8 and 6xS5 shots will REALLY help)

I'm going to keep it cheap and cheerful for this build and take 2x 2 MM attack bikers. 

 

That puts us at 973.

 

Now we can start to play around a little. 
The double-demi's at 1500 are weak to flyers.  Our storm ravens mean that on arrival we have 2 targets nukable. The issue here, is that it's a lot of points of board, where we need as much on from the get go laying down firepower.  This will be up to you.  

 

Other suggestions, if you run FW would obviously gravitate towards a Sicaran.  But, again, anything that can be taken out too quickly in a first turn drop is advisable against unless you have multiple high threats.  

Another interesting thought is the Vengeance Batteries - specifically the battle cannon one.  85 points and an AV14 emplaced cannon, providing 3+ cover behind it, and laying down a pie plate to wreck both marines and tanks.   At 85 points, its not a big investment, and you dont really care if it gets shot at.  Considering it also claims objectives, it means the enemy needs to factor it in if they're not around. 

 

The pie plate theory also works with the Vindicator.  Although, same concerns about oneshot kills abound.  But, anything that removes armour saves, forces GTG or kills vehicles is a great choice.

For this list, 

 

I'll take the Vengeance and then squeeze in another Tac-Raz squad for the ObjSec, maneuverability and overall versatility. 

 

Id consider going toe-to-toe and throw in yet another Razor squad, but, the issue there is its only our mobility that we have on them, so i'm hesitant to trade blow-for-blow.

 

I'll consider throwing in a fast Vindy and a Sicaran for the total.  

 

 

Lets see what we're ending off with;

 

Librarian  - Bike, Auspex, lvl 2, Veritas

Coteas

 

5x Tac - Grav, Cmbi-grav

--Razor - TLPG/LC

5x Tac - Plas, Cmbi-grav

--Razor - TLPG/LC

5x Tac - MG, Cmbi-grav

--Razor - TLPG/LC

 

3x Bikes - Cmbi-grav, 2GG, MM-attack bike

2x MM Attack Bikes

2x MM Attack Bikes

 

Vindicator - Fast, SB

Sicaran

 

Vengeance Battery - Battle Canon.  

1498.

 

 

It will be an uphill battle, but, I do think it has the tools to do what is required.  Just need to play out of your skin for win.  

Thoughts and comments welcome as always.

 

 

[Remtek]

I think the Vengeance Batteries are great considering how cheap they are, im partial to the LC ones myself, if not taking Stormravens, but the battle cannon will make him think twice on movment. I'm not a huge fan of melta spam vs av11, i think str 6 or 7 dakka will be a very effective way to limit the mobility of battle company lists, there will usually be RB's out in the open considering how many of them there are on the table. I'm guessing the Sicarian will be MVP if it survives turn 1.

 

Rifledreads are quite cheap, range 48 and will do around 2 glances a turn (and they will kill one in a single round from time to time), same with Baal Pred (but shorter range). If you can glance out veichles from far away early his melta tacticals will be pretty much out of the game for a few turns.  I'd drop the vindicator since it's gonna be tough to get good shots off, you basically need to get an explode then make sure the vindicator is in range, while staying out of his melta range. Protecting side armor is gonna be difficult against that many units. 

[Bukimimaru]

If FW models are fair game, would the new(ish) Demios Vindicator Laser Destroyer be a worthwhile addition?

It should have no problem popping a tank everyturn with it's 3x 48" twin linked S10, AP1 Ordinance.

 

Obviously needs to be taken in pairs which is where the cost ramps up, but you are practically asured to take out 2 tanks a round. 

[Morticon]

Remember, its not "really" the tanks that are the threat - its the mens and what they carry.  The fact that there are so many specials.  The tanks are just a little bit of support.  In the 5 games ive played the heavy lifters have ALWAYS been the devs and the tacs with special weapons.  

So, anything that can take out marines is what you're looking for!

 

I like the rifleman option though, despite is being anti-tank only - i rate for, what 20-25 points more though, the sicaran is maybe a far better deal.

[Charlo]

Whirlwind Scorpius from FW will kill a squad of Marines or a tank quite easily a turn. S8 AP3 1+D3 blast. Indirect fire too so you can hide it behind the battle cannon thing.

 

Question though, let's say you blow up a razor with your first blast, do the passengers come and you resolve the other 1-3, or are they lost? Or do you resolve all of the blasts on the razor first for overkill :P

 

The Gladius is just really funny to me, especially when you look at ours. They got extra rerolls, obj sec on everything and free transports.

 

We get red thirst and obj sec on the troops. Lol.

[Remtek]

I was thinking more in the line of popping a few tanks early so the wave of tacticals don't arrive at the same time. I played vs a 5grav-gun DA pod with relentless banner a few days ago. (15 shots but without grav-amp) With Rhinos it was actually possible to keep 10JP DC 100% out of los from pod alpha. More expensive with razorbacks, but doable.

 

Attack bikes are amazing, but in recent games i have been running assault squads with 2 melta in a rhino (one meltabomb less than 2MM bikes) 2 plasma in a rhino for 10 points more should also do work on tacticals as they don't have to disembark. Attack bikes will probably be superior in most cases, but vs battle company and skyhammer formation i really like cheap rhinos so you can protect yourself vs alphas. 

 

VS the DA battle company i have no clue how to deal with the full BS overwatch except hiding every model out of LoS except initial charger will protect the unit. But making that happen will be difficult. There is also the issue with White Scar + Khan Battle companies. SM razorbacks/rhinos with scout will be devestating, the amount of units being in their sweet spot turn1 and 2 is also something that will be hard to beat. 

[Morticon]

Whirlwind Scorpius from FW will kill a squad of Marines or a tank quite easily a turn. S8 AP3 1+D3 blast. Indirect fire too so you can hide it behind the battle cannon thing.

.

GENIUS!!!

[Xenith]

Whirlwind Scorpius from FW will kill a squad of Marines or a tank quite easily a turn. S8 AP3 1+D3 blast. Indirect fire too so you can hide it behind the battle cannon thing.

 

Question though, let's say you blow up a razor with your first blast, do the passengers come and you resolve the other 1-3, or are they lost? Or do you resolve all of the blasts on the razor first for overkill

 

We get red thirst and obj sec on the troops. Lol.

 

You shoot the rhino, you kill the rhino, all other shots are wasted. Remember, the fire happens simultaneously, so all scorpius missile his the rhino at the same time.

 

A second vengeance battery can neatly block the scorpius into a corner to protect it from deepstrikes also.

[Morticon]

Whirlwind Scorpius from FW will kill a squad of Marines or a tank quite easily a turn. S8 AP3 1+D3 blast. Indirect fire too so you can hide it behind the battle cannon thing.

Question though, let's say you blow up a razor with your first blast, do the passengers come and you resolve the other 1-3, or are they lost? Or do you resolve all of the blasts on the razor first for overkill

diff targets sadly- so no. aall gone.

[Remtek]

Just throwing out an idea here, but instead of 3 tacticals with Razorbacks you can take:

2x5scouts

Rhino Assault squad 2 melta

Rhino Assault squad 2 melta

Rhino Assault squad 2 plasma

Rhino Assault squad 2 plasma

 

That's 10 more points then the 3 razorbacks. You loose 3 48" lascannon shots, but twice the amount of bodies and a lot more midrange shooting. You also loose obsec, but how important will obsec be with only 15 tacticals? That will give you more deployment options for alpha denial.

[Charlo]

 

 

Whirlwind Scorpius from FW will kill a squad of Marines or a tank quite easily a turn. S8 AP3 1+D3 blast. Indirect fire too so you can hide it behind the battle cannon thing.

.

GENIUS!!!

Thank ye kindly. I'm really looking to get one of these, or convert/ count as an old school Whirlwind I have for it. Hidden Gem if you ask me. Take two (chappy required as it's a relic) and watch people cry.

[Jolemai]

For various units this game comes in swings and roundabouts, be it due to a rules change/update or due to a meta shift. For example, whilst not for us the Whirlwind is now enjoying a surge in popularity due to a rules update. However, with this shift in the meta perhaps it's time to bring back an old favourite - the Baal Pradator. The dakka it can pump out can arguably neuter a transport and (when compared with the autolas) can also potentially delete a squad of MSU marines. Now I'm sure I'll hear the old, tired excuses as to why these now suck but perhaps it's time to accept them as they now are given our Codex is eight months old?

 

We can still still pull off various tricks with our alpha strike potential (which ties in with some of the Formations we can enjoy) and we still have the FTSF Detachment. This, in conjunction with some Formations and/or allies can potentially repel the tide.

 

We should also not discount Scouts. Sergeant, combi-grav, scout redployment (so still get three shots on the first turn) will do some damage.

[Charlo]

Our main problem is only having 3HS slots in a general list, unless we start doubling up. You really need dupes of Baals (or any tank threat) to ensure damage, but I agree on Baals, and I do love my ten shot dakka Baals!

 

While it is deffo unworkable in below 2500 (and even then) I'd love to see how Dantes avenging host holds up against the Gladius...

[knife&fork]

I don't think trying to out-elite (with troops) and out-maneuver with such a huge dispensary in points is going to work. 

 

I would take Knight allies as they can kill several MSU marine squads every turn and then tailor the rest of the list to protect the knight(s) and go after anything that can threaten it. High pressure, can't ignore units like podded DC that will wreck small marine squads and will go nowhere until dead. 

 

Think a gunline approach at the start of the match to take away mobility and problem units. 

Counter charge what's left in the second half.

[Jolemai]

There's also your patented double Furioso Librarian summoning list. A lack of psychic defense may well see you overwhelm them with numbers :p

[Charlo]

Dakka knight would be very powerful. The Avenger Bolt cannon, Krack carapace missiles and Battle cannon. Holy AP3 Batman!

[knife&fork]

There's also your patented double Furioso Librarian summoning list. A lack of psychic defense may well see you overwhelm them with numbers

Too expensive I think at 1500, with the dreads not being very useful in themselves vs this type of list .

Summoning with a normal lib to give you numbers could work, but you need a lot of dice to get the WC3 primaris off reliably.

Dakka knight would be very powerful. The Avenger Bolt cannon, Krack carapace missiles and Battle cannon. Holy AP3 Batman!

Don't forget the stubbers and the heavy flamer, thunderblitz in the movement phase, HoW, normal close combat and stomps!

Damage output is insane.

[Remtek]

I don't think trying to out-elite (with troops) and out-maneuver with such a huge dispensary in points is going to work. 

 

I would take Knight allies as they can kill several MSU marine squads every turn and then tailor the rest of the list to protect the knight(s) and go after anything that can threaten it. High pressure, can't ignore units like podded DC that will wreck small marine squads and will go nowhere until dead. 

 

Think a gunline approach at the start of the match to take away mobility and problem units. 

Counter charge what's left in the second half.

If taking allies that changes a lot. Most of the battle companies will have no problem dealing with a knight as they will get multiple melta shots from different angles, plus melta bombs. The DA battlecompany will get to melta overwatch at full BS(can't use the shield).

 

I do think assault will be really strong vs SM battle company, vs the DA ones i think it's gonna be tough. But everything is rock-paper-scissor now more or less and Death Comany is really good vs MEQ.

[knife&fork]

 

If taking allies that changes a lot. Most of the battle companies will have no problem dealing with a knight as they will get multiple melta shots from different angles, plus melta bombs.  

 

Why? Will you let them do it? Of course you protect the knight since it will carry the game for you. Either by extreme pressure from everything else or space out to disallow the pods. Worst case scenario reserve it.

 

We BA are the masters of alpha strikes so I assume we all know how to work around them as well :) 

 

As for the DA the shield is set in the shooting phase and then remains until the next turn. Why would overwatch from weak MSU be a problem?

[Ushtarador]

will get to melta overwatch at full BS(can't use the shield).

You certainly can use the shield against overwatch, provided it's on the correct side still too dicey though. Yeah knights might work out, but they can just as well be blown up within a turn. The first wave of pods will kill your screen, the second wave will melta the knights. Not saying it's a 100% loss, but there is a good chance you lose.

Using pure BA, it's very simple. The other guy is a marine, has more or less the same statlines as us, more or less the same units - but gets to play with ~400pts more. While this is probably fair against necrons and eldar, it will always be very difficult for us..

If you play primarily maelstrom I think you need to get very very lucky to win a game against such lists. If there is more eternal war and killpoints, some heavy flyer list could work out quite well. It really depends on the type of mission though.

[Remtek]

My initial thought is that knights should run out soak dmg and pressure the frontline, which would be suicide for the knight. Did you have the Knight Warden in mind? That actually sounds pretty good keeping him backfield as he he should pop a transport, 5man squad every turn. Or more if they are out in the open. Then eventually come out of hiding in later turns. If a player forces ion shield on side armor and you charge, overwatch would always be directed at FA? I'm actually not sure what the rules say there.

 

While the Battle Company is kinda over the top, it does have one flaw. It forces you to take non optimal choices in your list. So the free points you are getting are somewhat relative. It's still extremly good. I kinda had a list panned out to deal with them, but when the DA one hit the shelf that kinda fell apart. 

[knife&fork]

My initial thought is that knights should run out soak dmg and pressure the frontline, which would be suicide for the knight. Did you have the Knight Warden in mind? That actually sounds pretty good keeping him backfield as he he should pop a transport, 5man squad every turn. Or more if they are out in the open. Then eventually come out of hiding in later turns. If a player forces ion shield on side armor and you charge, overwatch would always be directed at FA? I'm actually not sure what the rules say there.

 

While the Battle Company is kinda over the top, it does have one flaw. It forces you to take non optimal choices in your list. So the free points you are getting are somewhat relative. It's still extremly good. I kinda had a list panned out to deal with them, but when the DA one hit the shelf that kinda fell apart. 

 

Yeah the Warden is what I had in mind. Concentrate on making the marine players alpha strike as ineffective as possible (only the cents will do significant damage, try not to provide them with any targets) and then kill anything that's effective vs the knight with the rest of your list. Not that worried about single meltas and lascannons, but ever little bit helps. Rest of the list doesn't have much in the way of damage output. A lot of it is tied up in short ranged (slow) AV 11 vehicles. 

 

After a few turns the Warden should be able to move up the board to dish out some damage in every phase. 

 

Getting Coteaz in there is doable, but tight in such a low point game. Probably worth it though to deal with the pods.

[Wildfire]

Probably it's good that BA don't have Gladius.  They'd certainly be the best at it, with fast transports and being good at assault.