Angelus Bolters - Redundant?

[Charlo]

I always forget our boys in gold have this wrist mounted monster of medium infantry mulching and was wondering what you fellow angels thought about them.

 

To me they feel, all but useless.

 

Against 4+ and worse, they will mince pretty much anything and make it so we are either without a decent target to charge, or what we can charge will be so weak we'll eliminate it and be stuck in an enemy gun line.

 

Against 3+ we might manage to pepper some enemies down, but again it could hinder our charge, and realistically we will butcher anything 3+ in the assault phase.

 

Ironically against 2+ it could be worth it, maybe scoring an initial wound with volume of fire before we charge (assuming it's not powerfist wielding terms) and then do some damage with our axes/ Fists.

 

I don't know, just seem like a bit of a points inflation tax for us that, while really cool, doesn't actually help us in terms of the game.

[knife&fork]

Yeah, it's pretty useless. Another 10 pts for a single plasma shot isn't too hot either.

 

Too bad we can't get grav pistols anywhere on our regular dudes, because those are very useful for a CC oriented unit. I'm actually in the process of giving all the characters that can (librarians, priests, chaplain) grav pistols. Extra wound and concussive before combat even begins is huge when facing nasties. 

[Charlo]

Agreed, grav pistols are hidden gems for monster hunters! It's a shame concussive is single models and not units, but that would be overpowered...

[BadDice0809]

Best way to give everyone a pistol upgrade is that awesome BA Tactical Squad holstered pistol. Then it can always be whichever pistol (realistically bolt or grav) you need

[Xenith]

I dont think I've ever fired and Angelus bolter. My first squad of SG were given 5 plasmas for the fun of it for taking wounds off tough things. I dont want to risk failing a charge.

[Remtek]

It's nice to have the option of using them in melee. If you have 3-4 SG left and the only thing you can assault is a lone attack bike, might as well kill it in opponents turn. But yeah, if we could remove them for a point reduction, i'd do that every time.

[Charlo]

Wait, you can choose to use a ranged weapon in melee?

[Ushtarador]

Only if it's a pistol. Don't think the angelus bolter counts as pistol sadly.

[Remtek]

Oh i always assumed it was a pistol never gave it much thought. Your correct, it's a side mounted bolter. BA forums sure keep a man honest!

[Silverson]

im glad to see someone else cannot see a use for the angelus bolters, i find i usually use them if I'm assaulting something like th/ss terminators where i need to assault a squad with multiple units and the angelus blotters give me a chance at another wound before i charge because if the enemy terminators get to attack back I'm probably dead. i usually run my sanguinary guard with 2 infernos pistols as standard for a bit of extra ummmfff. 

[knife&fork]

And if you have the plasma or infernus you can pull the tactic that Remtek suggested to stay in a combat ;)

[Vel'Cona]

I think that the Angelus Boltguns were sort of an afterthought, riding on the popularity of the Grey Knight's wrist mounted Storm Bolters.  If they had stuck with something like that, ie. giving them 18" range and 2 shots or making them a true pistol with some form of single handed melee weapon, it might have been more worthwhile.  Still, if they left them as is and just gave the SG a standing Invulnerable save (5+ would be fine), they would be a much more competitive unit for their point cost.

[Charlo]

Fantastic unit already IMO, especially compared to vanguard (sadly only internally, marine veterans are actually a bit better due to cheap pw and Shields). Like everything Grav is a big pain. But alas, outdated codex strikes again.

[Silverson]

Yea I think there a good unit and I think have been in every list I have done in the new codex but the angelus bolt guns do get frustrating when trying to decide what to use them against.

[Xenith]

The SG were an extreme elite hunter when they were first released, however with their Low A value (2A in the second round due to lack of pistols), they would fare poorly vs tarpit hordes. The Angelus bolter was useful to think numbers a little, guardsmen, orks, what have you, but random charge distance really, really killed the point of ranged weapons on a unit that needs to obtain the charge.

 

If they allowed wrist mounted weapons to be fired into combat, now...that would be good.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Angelus Bolters aren't too bad on the drop when you could choose between hunting a tank or mowing down a squad like fire warriors. It's not the best option, but it's an option they do have, so I'll not complain about it being there.

 

If you even take 10 SG, that's 20 shots(minus the occasional plasma-/infernus pistol) of AP4 shooting. Yeah, close range it is, but I like to take a risk when deep striking anyways. (Dark) Eldar in the open, gone. Guard, same. Tau, same same, but different. Their firewarriors can be a very potent threat especially with combined one-upped overwatched, so taking out as many as possible when the opportunity arises is a must. Not mentioning the tough ork boyz(not sure if they're still in the codex, haven't played them in ages), Necron warriors and many tyranid hive creatures only have a 4+ save. As I said, probably not the best option, but it's there. If I'm looking at a 9-12" charge anyways, I'd rather give off some shots that can actually do damage rather than hope for a higher than average roll with 2 D6.

 

 

I'd add another 6" in range and rending to make them worthwhile, if I had the chance. Maybe even something like a salvo rule with a twist, like doubling shots when not assaulting in the same phase. Imagine, deepstrike from reserves, double-tap with rending and AP4 at 18"...maybe too hardcore. But yeah, a change here and there wouldn't hurt.

 

 

Snorri

[Xenith]

 If I'm looking at a 9-12" charge anyways, I'd rather give off some shots that can actually do damage rather than hope for a higher than average roll with 2 D6.

 

 

Some good food for thought there.

 

I personally avoid deepstriking with assault units as they get into combat generally a turn later than they would if they deployed normally . 10SG in base to base is also asking for a plasma cannoning!

[tjr]

I really like them, but I've also had two "Cool Story Bro" moments with them:

1) Killing two Necrons Wraiths (one had already taken a wound). In overwatch none the less.

2) Against The Green Tide. He had about 60 boyz left, when I hit and run SG/Dante out of combat. Being able to remove a bunch more, before charging in was great.

[evildrcheese]

I tend to agree with alot of the points covered. It boils down to them being situational at best and practically useless at worst.

 

I tend to take DC over Sang Guard.

 

D

[Blindhamster]

I love sanguinary guard and they have remained a staple in my lists since their initial release.

 

I typically don't deep strike them - exception is if I give them infernus pistols and join a priest and Dante to them... In which case Dante tanks, they rely on the fnp if shot by plasma and I can generally guarantee a dead tank.

 

Vs orks or tau the angelus bolter is very handy, being two shots I have, like snorri used it to wipe out irksome fire warrior squads or thin down larger mobs of orks

[Indefragable]

In my wishlist for BA, I think the Angelus Bolters should be Master Crafted. I mean, these guys are dressed head-to-toe in gold, carrying special swords and sprouting wings...why wouldn't they have MC shooters? It's like buying a Ferrari and putting the radio from a Corolla in it. But I digress...

 

This may fly in the face of all the other gripes in this thread but I think the usefulness (or lack thereof) of the Angelus Bolters has more to do with how melee currently works in 40k than anything else. Personally, I think it's dumb to penalize a Unit for overkilling an enemy. I've been told that Warhammer Fantasy (RIP, apparently?) had a mechanic where a Charging Unit that kills an enemy in melee could then Charge another enemy unit to represent the momentum. THAT seems more in line with the Fluff of the SG.

 

That being said, to conform to how he game actually plays, I use the Angelus Boltguns quite a bit, but then again I am Deep Strike-happy so take it for what it's worth.

[Indefragable]

In my wishlist for BA, I think the Angelus Bolters should be Master Crafted. I mean, these guys are dressed head-to-toe in gold, carrying special swords and sprouting wings...why wouldn't they have MC shooters? It's like buying a Ferrari and putting the radio from a Corolla in it. But I digress...

 

This may fly in the face of all the other gripes in this thread but I think the usefulness (or lack thereof) of the Angelus Bolters has more to do with how melee currently works in 40k than anything else. Personally, I think it's dumb to penalize a Unit for overkilling an enemy. I've been told that Warhammer Fantasy (RIP, apparently?) had a mechanic where a Charging Unit that kills an enemy in melee could then Charge another enemy unit to represent the momentum. THAT seems more in line with the Fluff of the SG.

 

That being said, to conform to how he game actually plays, I use the Angelus Boltguns quite a bit, but then again I am Deep Strike-happy so take it for what it's worth.

Forgot to include:

 

Good example of where just that little extra can make a difference:

 

I went up against Chapter Master SmashF****r of the Iron Hands who happened to roll damn well on the IH Warlord Traits. We're talking 2+/3++/4+++FNP with Eternal Warrior. That takes an awful lot of Dice Rolls to make a dent.

 

I had Dante, a SP w/ AP2 Sword and 4 surviving SG and some beat up Tacticals to take him on. Having the Angelus Bolters allowed me to both kite him a little bit to maximize positioning and heap on some more Dice Rolls before the inevitable Charge.

 

It took 2 Turns of being locked in Combat and the noble sacrifice of a lone Sgt--the last survivor of a meltacide pod--who challenged SmashF****r to save Dante but I smote him and laid bare his gorgony corpse.

[Ming]

Yep, I put a fist and 2 infernous pistols in every SG unit build....I'm told to add a banner as well to increase the CC attacks.  I have not used squads larger than 6...after that it seems like too much overkill...

[Spagunk]

SG should have been given specialist rounds for their boltguns. Master-crafted would have been a good idea though.

[Ming]

Right now I'm painting Vanguard for the ETL...I probably tooled them up too well though in HTH...my SG are great, look more awesome, but pretty much act as shootier Vanguard...that gold paint can attract alot of attention though...