Naked Black Knights a dead end?

[Frater Cornelius]

I have done 5 games with almost the same DA list and played a game against a DA tournament player, who also used two units of RWBK with a Dark Shroud. Every single game yielded the same result. The RWBK do not perform as well as they should. When they do not jink against small arms fire, you will get whittled down. If you jink, you lose your firepower and increase your chances of overheating due to making more re-rolls. When relying on their melee, you will find that Rending is very unreliable and WS4 against WS4+ means a lot of lost hits. The Stasis Grenade would help, if they would not be jinking all the time.

 

Overall, it always seems like they run out of steam the longer a game goes on. This is begging the question, are naked RWBK really worth it? I am considering a tanky character up front to eat some shots and keep their effectiveness. An Int. Chap. on bike with MoR for re-rolls and possibly an Iron Hand Chapter Master for the 4+ FnP on top of 2+/3++ EW. However, in a game of two sources, I would need to choose between Scouts + LSS and CM (350-380pts) or an Imperial Knight (370-415pts) and I feel the IK is a bit stronger.

 

In any way, I think another approach needs to happen. Naked RWBK have not only failed to live up to my expectations, they have disappointed me. However, due to the lack of a tanky character and alternative ways of running them, I am not sure how to approach Green + Black or Tri-wing now.

I suppose running them in the RWSF is a remedy, but there are a lot of ways of eating cover and if they get too close, you can bind them in melee and simply kill them or at least make some casualties to reduce their effectiveness.

 

YMMV, obviously, but I feel that that setup requires some tweaks. Thoughts?

[notmattlythgoe]

I have done 5 games with almost the same DA list and played a game against a DA tournament player, who also used two units of RWBK with a Dark Shroud. Every single game yielded the same result. The RWBK do not perform as well as they should. When they do not jink against small arms fire, you will get whittled down. If you jink, you lose your firepower and increase your chances of overheating due to making more re-rolls. When relying on their melee, you will find that Rending is very unreliable and WS4 against WS4+ means a lot of lost hits. The Stasis Grenade would help, if they would not be jinking all the time.

 

Overall, it always seems like they run out of steam the longer a game goes on. This is begging the question, are naked RWBK really worth it? I am considering a tanky character up front to eat some shots and keep their effectiveness. An Int. Chap. on bike with MoR for re-rolls and possibly an Iron Hand Chapter Master for the 4+ FnP on top of 2+/3++ EW. However, in a game of two sources, I would need to choose between Scouts + LSS and CM (350-380pts) or an Imperial Knight (370-415pts) and I feel the IK is a bit stronger.

 

In any way, I think another approach needs to happen. Naked RWBK have not only failed to live up to my expectations, they have disappointed me. However, due to the lack of a tanky character and alternative ways of running them, I am not sure how to approach Green + Black or Tri-wing now.

I suppose running them in the RWSF is a remedy, but there are a lot of ways of eating cover and if they get too close, you can bind them in melee and simply kill them or at least make some casualties to reduce their effectiveness.

 

YMMV, obviously, but I feel that that setup requires some tweaks. Thoughts?

 

This is not true, you only overheat if you roll a 1 on the first and second roll. However, I'm open to being proven wrong.

 

"a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1"

 

The problem with using RWBK as your main force is their cost. That's a lot of points going into not very many bodies. I see them more as the elite force used to beef up your army instead of the main part of it. Even if they aren't doing a lot of damage, the fact that they are being forced to jink means something is shooting at them instead of something else in your army.

[Frater Cornelius]

You overheat more when you jink. Why? When you fire at full BS, you re-roll 1s and 2s. If you jink, you re-roll everything but 6s. This means that you re-roll more dice and thus you have a higher chance of getting a 1 on your second roll. Only a 1 on the second roll matters, because the first one you re-roll.

 

As for the second part, my lists used 20-30 MEQ, 5 Scouts, 3 Pods, 0-1 Land Raider with DW in them and 1-2 Characters. The list I was facing used 35 MEQ, 2 characters and 5 pods. The thing is, once you know the weakness of the BK (namely being forced to jink and rely on melee), then you just shoot one combat squad or some unit with AP2 or even potential AP2 at them to force that jink and then ignore them, or kill some if he refuses to jink. Both works in your favour.

[notmattlythgoe]

You overheat more when you jink. Why? When you fire at full BS, you re-roll 1s and 2s. If you jink, you re-roll everything but 6s. This means that you re-roll more dice and thus you have a higher chance of getting a 1 on your second roll. Only a 1 on the second roll matters, because the first one you re-roll.

 

As for the second part, my lists used 20-30 MEQ, 5 Scouts, 3 Pods, 0-1 Land Raider with DW in them and 1-2 Characters. The list I was facing used 35 MEQ, 2 characters and 5 pods. The thing is, once you know the weakness of the BK (namely being forced to jink and rely on melee), then you just shoot one combat squad or some unit with AP2 or even potential AP2 at them to force that jink and then ignore them, or kill some if he refuses to jink. Both works in your favour.

 

"a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1"

That's the exact wording in the Gets Hot rule. The also indicates that the first roll must also be a 1 for it to get hot.

 

Valid points on the second part. Jinking is definitely a choice you need to make. They however have not gotten worse since the last codex, and they were very good then. Even after jinking you should still be getting 2-3 wounds from the plasma talons.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, fancy that. I will look into it, but there is a good chance that you may be right. But let us not discuss it here. Overheat deaths are rather rare and should not factor in.

 

The comparison to the last book is irrelevant as other books have also changed. The only thing that matters is how to handle things now, with the tools we have. I am this close to skipping the Dark Shroud completely and only take one RWCS with 6 dudes, GL, Apoth and tanky (or at least semi-tanky) character and build the rest around them. Regular RW have no need for DS as they become close to useless when they jink anyway. An argument could be made for the Dark Shroud protecting Tacs or Vets that arrive via pod and get into cover, but that seems a bit situational.

 

Edit: Checked the BRB and edited my hastily written first paragraph.

[notmattlythgoe]

A re-roll discounts the first miss and thus becomes irrelevant. Only the re-roll counts. And if the re-roll is a 1, only then the result is final and you overheat. Your interpretation is completely new to me. Never seen anyone doing it like that.

 

The comparison to the last book is irrelevant as other books have also changed. The only thing that matters is how to handle things now, with the tools we have. I am this close to skipping the Dark Shroud completely and only take one RWCS with 6 dudes, GL, Apoth and tanky (or at least semi-tanky) character and build the rest around them. Regular RW have no need for DS as they become close to useless when they jink anyway. An argument could be made for the Dark Shroud protecting Tacs or Vets that arrive via pod and get into cover, but that seems a bit situational.

 

Gets hot is only triggered on a roll of a 1 on the first roll, if the first roll is not a 1 it doesn't matter. Like I said, the also is the part that matters. Do you have something that proves your statement other than "I've never seen it done that way"?

 

Using your logic then rerolling a miss of a 2 can also cause you to get hot on the second roll.

 

I tend to agree with you on the DS with the command squad, it is either going to fly around doing nothing, or it is going to gimp the firepower of your squad.

[WellSpokenMan]

I think a Ravenwing list needs to MSU.  I only plan on running an RWCS and maybe 3-6 RWBKs.  The Ravenwing Support Squad with a DS will follow the Command Squad and another one will hang with the MSU units.  This limits the number of units that need to jink on any given turn and should give my opponent targeting problems.  This is all theory hammer of course. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I think you may be on to something. I am trying to write a list with full RWCS and two units of 3 RWBK. 6 Plasma shots are still respectable. This means bringing a Dark Shroud. As much as I despise MSU, I think it might improve it a bit. The next question would be what character to stick with the RWCS. Ally in a CM or stick with an Int. Chappy? I would not run them without Int. Chappy because those re-rolls are needed with their WS4.

 

I am still not sure what Green to bring in order to work well together with RWBK though.

[notmattlythgoe]

I think you may be on to something. I am trying to write a list with full RWCS and two units of 3 RWBK. 6 Plasma shots are still respectable. This means bringing a Dark Shroud. As much as I despise MSU, I think it might improve it a bit. The next question would be what character to stick with the RWCS. Ally in a CM or stick with an Int. Chappy? I would not run them without Int. Chappy because those re-rolls are needed with their WS4.

 

I am still not sure what Green to bring in order to work well together with RWBK though.

 

You could also give power lances to the hunstmasters for some hit and run fun.

[WellSpokenMan]

I think you may be on to something. I am trying to write a list with full RWCS and two units of 3 RWBK. 6 Plasma shots are still respectable. This means bringing a Dark Shroud. As much as I despise MSU, I think it might improve it a bit. The next question would be what character to stick with the RWCS. Ally in a CM or stick with an Int. Chappy? I would not run them without Int. Chappy because those re-rolls are needed with their WS4.

I am still not sure what Green to bring in order to work well together with RWBK though.

Once I have the money, I am considering getting the new Dev set for a couple of Shiny new Grav-cannons. I'll give those to some tacs and put them in a pod to ruin someones day. Most likely some Wyverns or a TFC. Something that will make life difficult for my bikes. I am working on a Demi-company/Ravenwing list, but I won't have the models until Christmas

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, 20 Tacs with X/Combi-X/Grav Cannon in two Pods are always mandatory.

 

To get back to RWBK. 4 RWBK cost 160pts. 5 Bikes with 2 Grav and a Melta Bomb cost 160pts as well. You do not need to jink against small arms fire because you essentially have 3 ablative wounds for your important weapons. You also have longer range. If you get targeted by a large quantity of AP2, you can jink and have decent odds of survival. I think that approach might be more save because you have more bodies, have less incentive to jink and you have longer range. You can still have your 6 RWBK CS with Apoth and GL and the IChappy + Sammy up front to do melee damage and tank heavy hits. Body-count is extremely important. Maybe treating RWBK as an actual elite unit and not spamming them is a better way to go.

On a side note, I would not take 6 RW Bikes and combat squad them, seeing as you end up with the same problem of having to jink and losing your special weapons faster. There might be a case for splitting them into 2 units of 3 and have one Grav in each unit though. That would also give me the incentive to pick up the Trikes for the unit. 6 Bikes, 2 Grav and a MM Trike cost 235pts (6 RWBK cost 240pts). You get 2 more wounds (one more model), versatility and range, but you resort to MSU, which can go both ways.

 

Thoughts?

[notmattlythgoe]

Well, 20 Tacs with X/Combi-X/Grav Cannon in two Pods are always mandatory.

 

To get back to RWBK. 4 RWBK cost 160pts. 5 Bikes with 2 Grav and a Melta Bomb cost 160pts as well. You do not need to jink against small arms fire because you essentially have 3 ablative wounds for your important weapons. You also have longer range. If you get targeted by a large quantity of AP2, you can jink and have decent odds of survival. I think that approach might be more save because you have more bodies, have less incentive to jink and you have longer range. You can still have your 6 RWBK CS with Apoth and GL and the IChappy + Sammy up front to do melee damage and tank heavy hits. Body-count is extremely important. Maybe treating RWBK as an actual elite unit and not spamming them is a better way to go.

On a side note, I would not take 6 RW Bikes and combat squad them, seeing as you end up with the same problem of having to jink and losing your special weapons faster. There might be a case for splitting them into 2 units of 3 and have one Grav in each unit though. That would also give me the incentive to pick up the Trikes for the unit. 6 Bikes, 2 Grav and a MM Trike cost 235pts (6 RWBK cost 240pts). You get 2 more wounds (one more model), versatility and range, but you resort to MSU, which can go both ways.

 

Thoughts?

 

This is the route I would go. I'd consider taking them as a RWAS and getting the BS 5 bonus. Take the LS as a Typhoon and if you combat squad the bikes you have a very well rounded unit that the LS can pass BS5 around to. Still a good unit even if you choose not to combat squad it, just not as  flexible.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, the concept behind it is flexible. You can either go RWAS or buy RW Bikes. The Speeder or Trike cost around the same. What you lose in BS you make up in flexibility of Combat Squads. Now, here comes the question: Do you still need a Dark Shroud?

 

Here is an example list:

Hidden Content

Interrogator Chaplain - Bike, MoR, SoH

RWCS - 6 dudes, GL, Apothecary

10 Tacs - Melta, Combi-Melta, Grav-Cannon, Drop Pod

10 Tacs - Melta, Combi-Melta, Grav-Cannon, Drop Pod

5 Scouts - Camo Pants

Drop Pod

6 Bikes - 2 Grav, MM Trike

6 Bikes - 2 Grav, MM Trike

 

That is 1475pts. You can either take a Paladin Knight and be at 1850 or you could take Sammy and some other 175pts and play the RWSF + CAD since you have 2 HQs. Either way can work. But since you have a sturdy unit that does not want to jink and has decent protection, a bunch of MSU dudes that do not need to Jink and rather stay in cover and tough it out so that they can shoot and the plethora of ways to ignore cover anyway on top of your positional requirement, it really begs the question if a Dark Shroud is really necessary here.

[notmattlythgoe]

A reason to take the DS to tag along with the Command Squad might be the immunity to overwatch and the Fear bonus. Not sure that's a strong enough reason, but it might be depending on who you are playing.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, it depends on whether I plan to take anything else. If I play Green + Black and do not take an IK, I have 175pts after Sammy. Move a few points around and you have 200pts for DS and LSV. DS can protect against alpha strike by giving 3+ cover in ruins without having to jink. The LSV can be taken in the CAD, have it deep strike next to a back field Ravenwing and fire if you are going second or start on the board T1.

If I am going Tri-wing, I will drop the Scouts and include 5 DWK for Sammy to join and deliver them into combat T2. T1 if I am going second and the opponent got close. In this setup there is no room for DS.

 

I wonder if including a Chapter Master and full Bike Squads (8 dudes, 2 Grav, MM Trike, Combat Squad into 5 with 2 Grav and 3 with Trike) is worth it. You lose Scout and Hit and Run, but you get more bodies, a better tank and beatstick with Orbital Strike and Objective Secured on the bikes. I was thinking Iron Hands for that extra endurance.

[Frater Cornelius]

I have tried the above setup and it failed even harder. I felt spread thin and I lost models left and right. The RWCS survived very well, but could not turn the game on its own.

 

But after some though, I think I know the issue and why I do not succeed with DA as opposed to UM. DA have a very poor back bone. Their elite units are superb. Black Knights/RWCS, DW Knights, Dark Shroud/Support Squadron, HQ section are all excellent. But they fail in what is supposed to keep your army running, the Troops. The UM have a rather poor elite units section when compared to DA, but their back bone, namely Scouts, Tacs and TFC, perform exceptionally well. That is why I succeed with UM, but find them visually unappealing and consider the unit composition rather boring.

 

I have toyed around with DA + IG and on paper it looked far better. Very solid back bone and crushing elite units. But I really dislike building an army around allies, so I am a bit disgruntled right now.

[Olataro]

And UM has doctorines, which is a lot more superior than our rules

[Kewl Imp]

I use in my standard 1850 a RWCS full kitted out. and a squad 4 of BKs. Before the "omission" that ravenwing rule wasn't added to HQs that can take bikes, IChap on bike with MoR. They would be HQ killers and more than once the IChap took down Wraith Knights and the like.

 

The bare naked squads normally doesn't survive the first round of shooting if my Dark Shroud is taken out.

[Brother Turok]

They are far better than normal ravenwing. Plasma talons are great (maybe not with overwatch but I've never lost one to gets hot rule). Talons can kill marines and termies with ease, not to mention harass small armor. They are also great in cc. They are strength 5 with rending and get 4 attacks each on a charge.

 

My last game one squad blew up a land raider, tore through a marine squad in cover in cc, but finally fell in combat with a command squad that contained Vulcan (initiative killed me there as well as the new challenge wounds spill over thing).

 

They also have a better junk than ravenwing and can drive through terrain like its not there.

 

I still like them very much!

[Olataro]

They are far better than normal ravenwing. Plasma talons are great (maybe not with overwatch but I've never lost one to gets hot rule). Talons can kill marines and termies with ease, not to mention harass small armor. They are also great in cc. They are strength 5 with rending and get 4 attacks each on a charge.

 

My last game one squad blew up a land raider, tore through a marine squad in cover in cc, but finally fell in combat with a command squad that contained Vulcan (initiative killed me there as well as the new challenge wounds spill over thing).

 

They also have a better junk than ravenwing and can drive through terrain like its not there.

 

I still like them very much!

Wait, how you took out a landraider with black knights? Plasma talons can't harm them at all

[Frater Cornelius]

And UM has doctorines, which is a lot more superior than our rules

That would be the reason why the UM backbone is so strong. But where does that leave DA? Minimize Troops by taking 40 Scouts for 440pts and camp objectives while your big guys tear the enemy a few new ones? Ally?

[Master Avoghai]

 

And UM has doctorines, which is a lot more superior than our rules

That would be the reason why the UM backbone is so strong. But where does that leave DA? Minimize Troops by taking 40 Scouts for 440pts and camp objectives while your big guys tear the enemy a few new ones? Ally?

Sorry but I fail to see how, a single turn of re-roll to hit in the shooting phase makes the UM troops choices better than the DA ones...

 

They have the same profile, the same weapons options, the same cost.

 

Only difference is the doctrines (which occurs once per battle, 2 if you play a gladius) vs the stubborn + OW at BS2

 

And you say that this unique difference makes the DA troops choices being subpar comparing to UM?

 

I don't understand how...

[Frater Cornelius]

Simple, a few cold dice ruin it all. YMMV, but DA Tacs have failed me every time due to missing shots with one special weapon or Bolters against soft targets.

 

With UM, if I shoot at a unit, I can almost predict what can happen. It might not look like much, but getting two turns of re-rolls for your army (well, rerolls or re-roll 1s) as well as a melee boost during a third one really piles up. Reliability is everything and that is what DA Troops lack. If I am playing 230-240pts for a Troops choice, it better deliver instead of being an expensive distraction.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Yet until now both shot as good as died as easy. You expect too much from DA tacticals. They won't play as UM ones as you well discovered. You need to put the DA assets into use. They won't be so effective in offense as UM so, they need to be used on the defense so they can shine. So those 240 points won't be used to kill 240 points or more of the enemy, but stall them/cripple them so they are not killing something else.

If you replace Tacticals for scouts the situation won't change. Scouts will be more resilient in cover but they don't have access to heavy/specials as lethal as tacticals.

[WellSpokenMan]

I'd drop them on an objective with a Grav Cannon and make your opponent choose whether to dig them out or spend his shots on something more troubling. Things like this are why I think this is a finesse army. Nothing is so good it will carry the day on it's own, but if you can get your synergies clicking you can really do some damage.