Need tips and advice on BAs!

[TheMightyGabriel]

Hello everyone! I’m new here but certainly not new to 40k  I’ve been
playing on and off for a while, and currently am in my “on” period.
I’ve always been very interested in the game part of the hobby, and am
always looking to make a compromise between efficiency in my army and
fluff/fun. I am writing this post because I wish to learn more about
the Blood Angels – aka what’s strong, what’s weak, why, how, when,
etc… I’m sure my fellow BA players will help me on this one, hopefully
learning a thing or two in the process.

Recently, I have been battling Necrons, Tyranids and Chaos Marines
(the armies my close friends play) with my Blood Angels and learned a
lot about the army dynamics.
I have had most trouble with the Necrons (it is my understanding that
they are a 1st tier army, while BAs are pretty far from that) because
of their insane resilience. Plain and simple, my shooting is useless
compared to his, except special/heavy weapons (#expensive). Charging a
Necron Warriors squad with a Tactical Squad is an option but
definitely not an efficient one. Their superior leadership coupled
with insane Reanimation Protocols makes my poor marines look
ridiculous, even with furious charge. I have only ever found my
marines useful when in a Rhino/Drop pod, equipped with Meltagun and
Heavy Flamer (yay Heavy Flamers ).

I have tried multiple different armies (we usually play 1000-1500pts),
and am still pondering whether I should go for Devastators or
Overcharged Engined full-lascannoned Predator, Assault Squad w/
Sanguiniary Priest or Death Company Squad w/ Chaplain, Sanguiniary
school or Divination, Rhino or Pods, Bike squads or ney. These choices
are what I will go through in the following text.
Basically, devastators w/ 4 lascannons are at the same price as the
predator (~150pts). One can go superfast and still shoot with a twin
linked lascannon, while the others are very static but hold
devastating (oh! Pun!) firepower. In the end, I find that I very
rarely have the occasion to make use of the BA predator’s potential
speed. His 13 front hull and massive range w/ lascannons usually lets
it stay behind the lines at all times, rarely moving. It is true that
when it does move, it can outrun any melee threat in the game, yet
that is a rare case, esp vs Necrons (scarabs are the only threat but
they really aren’t vs heavy flamers and marines). All that said, I
feel like devastators don’t really fit in the BA playstyle and I
usually go for the Tank.

Now on to the Assault and Death Company Squads. Such mixed feelings…
Obviously both are strong choices because of the Furious Charge BA
rule. First, putting a Sanguiniary Priest in a DC squad makes very
little sense because of the redundant feel-no-pain rule – which is a
shame! The Priest, giving bonus WS, should therefore go either in an
Assault Terminator Squad, Sanguiniary guard or in an Assault Squad, yet is it worth it? If yes then when?
The Chaplain choice fits the DC squad so well that I would not see it
going any other way. So here’s my dilemma: why pay 17 points for an
assault marine when a jump packed Death Company marine only costs 23
and has much much more potential? (5 attacks in assault per marine and
feel no pain = stronk). I am really confused on whether I should go
for one or the other as they fit the exact same role aka. blitzkrieg. I
need advice!

Regarding the psychic power schools, I have been very displeased with
BA magic so far. Divination seems more appropriate and more versatile,
not cornering you into doing one thing and one thing only – which is
blitzkrieging all day err’ day. For this reason I rarely go for
Librarians – I’m scared of making a stupid choice and wasting precious
points.

As of whether I should go for Rhinos or Drop Pods, I am still very
(very very) undecided. Basically, I nearly always equip my Tactical
Marines with Meltagun and Heavy Flamer, as stated above, and split
them following the Combat Squad rule. Because our Rhinos are Fast,
they seem to me like the go-to choice for BAs, giving them amazing
versatility and potential. Yet Drop Pods have always been a very
strong pick as well (riskier though). So therefore my question is
simple: How and in which situations should I go for one or the other?
I have found that having only 1 Drop Pod is pretty useless and risky
if not backed up with other Deep Strike units and a Locator Beacon. Is
an all-deep-strike’d BA army worth it? I’m already so fast, I don’t
feel like I need it most the time.

And finally, Bikes… Bikes are so damn cool but bring so little to the
picture for BAs it seems. Because my whole army is already Fast/Jump
units, I don’t need their speed, nor do I really need their firepower
at any given moment – harassing isn’t the BA way. The only real use of
Bikes I have found was when I put my Librarian on a bike with Scout
Bikes, giving it a lot of versatility and decent melee potential for a
reasonable price (5 str 5 tough in assault – not bad). Whoever goes
for Bikes with BAs please enlighten me. 


That’s it for me today! Sorry for the long post but I had a lot on my mind!
Thank you in advance for your answers, really looking forward to them.

[TheMightyGabriel]

Whoops this came out very very poorly

[Sanguine_Blood]

Hello Brother

 

Unfortunately I have only had the luxury of playing against Necrons once so far, and I got tabled by them. Though in my defense I didn't know anything about them and wasn't geared for fighting them. That reanimation is so strong. If I were to face them again I would take as many Melta/Lascannon/Missiles/S8+/AP2 attacks as possible. If you can double their T they either can't or reduce their RAP so they die easier. I'd also run Death Company (see below for my take on that).

 

Las Preds or Dev's...

Like you pointed out, both are good but different roles. Do you want a mobile, or stationary fire base? What will your opponent be that night? Necrons - Devastators. Marine or equivalent - Preds. Honestly don't run either very much as I prefer our other Heavy Support options better, but when I do run a pred, it's a destructor with Autocannon and Heavy bolters. I have also recently gotten a Sicarian Battle Tank from Forgeworld, and (for me) IT'S AMAZING. Turrent and Lascannon sponsons for 185ish points is so worth it. Last game I used it Every squad it looked at fell apart.

 

Assault Squads or Death Company.

I own 3 assault squads, and 10 DC marines with JP's and 10 without. I basically don't use assault squads as assault squads anymore. They're sole role in my army now is a 5 man with 2 meltaguns and 2 Inferno pistols in a drop pod. Meltacide. They come down and melt an armored target. If I want to Assault, I run a 7-10 man Death Company squad with 2 fists(Or T-hammer), and 2 inferno pistols. If I have the points I take Lemartes with them, he's better than an HQ chaplain IMO. Death Company you just get more bang for your buck as you pointed out. Their far superior number of special rules and attacks (rage) and great weapon choices are just better than an assault squad, hands down.

 

Librarians.

I try to take one, and feel horrible when I cannot. My experiences are that when I don't take one, i regret it; My opponent will have some power that I wished my phi-hood would help me nullify. When I take him, I use the Dinination school. It's the best choice for my style of play; I put him in the Death Company. I don't always get to take a chaplain, and I almost always take a Death Company, so Divination allows me Prescience which is, if the power actually casts, better than the Chaplain. Even if I take a Chaplain the other powers (Except Scrying) tend to have fantastic results (4++ save DC; yes please). 

If I take a Librarian Dreadnought, I'll then take the Sanguinary Discipline. The Primaris from that school stacks well with the nature of the Librarian Dreadnought. 

 

Rhinos or Pods.

Pods. Since 6th and 7th killed easy assaults from them, I dislike them. Sure they're fast, but with the turn tax on assaulting and the giving your opponent a free First Blood, It's more a hinder than a help.

[knife&fork]

Welcome!

 

For general advice on necrons, check out this thread:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310203-advice-against-necrons/

[Remtek]

My assumption is GW does see the Imperium as one big codex when it comes to balance. Tau, Necron, Nids and Eldar (DE still strong allies) are very strong without allies, but have less ally options. Most imperium books needs to make the use of battle-brothers to reach the same power lvl (Except vanilla marines, which has been strong alone since 6th. But even vanilla marines usually reach a higher potential with the use of battle-brothers. You can usually see a wide spread of army lists in the top 10 tournament results, BA has mainly been a taxi codex for other imperium forces since we can take 6 empty pods in a single detachment. Overall Necron have been the book with the largest amount of top 10 finishers, but Eldar or Space Marines will probably take over that spot depending on the mission packets. All this stuff will usually not apply when playing local games at your FLGS, except in a highly competitive enviroment.

 

That being said, for most semi competitive and casual games the gap between books is kinda different. Eldar and Necron casual lists are usually much stronger than vanilla space marine casual lists even though they are at the same 'power ranking'.

 

Where does that leave BA? Even though vanilla marines are much stronger than BA, if both bring a casual lists it will probably be an even match. On the other side Necron and Eldar will imo. always be stronger, but we can still win. The issue BA has vs. Necron we need a strong assault army to have a decent matchup while vs Eldar you will have a tough time charging anything until turn 3 or 4 so drop pods is the best solution vs Eldar, but perhaps the worst solution vs Necrons.

 

Pred vs. Dev's

This is why it's hard to say X unit is better than Y unit. Dev's will be better than Preds if playing vs Necrons due to more dmg output per point (since Necrons have short range), while the Preds will be better vs Eldar due to them having so much str 4-6 shots and less lance now in general. They will probably be taking swooping hawks/melta fire dragons for the anti-tank role, but predators can somewhat avoid this. On the other side any shooting vs Necron will be futile except killing triarch stalkers and forcing jink saves, if they decide to go the mech route, which most do not. It's worth noting that Necrons dont receive bonus shots on 6's if they jink so they are much less popular now. Neither dev's or preds are very good, but quite decent in casual games. Another argument for dev's is if your going DC heavy it gives your opponent harder choices since everything is power armor (spam).

 

Assault Marines vs DC

Assault marines are very different from DC, they are mostly a delivery system for melta/plasma/flamers either in pods or rhinos. Always taken as 5man units with 2 special weapons. The question is usually Sanguinary Guard vs DC, which are somewhat close depending on meta. Most will say DC are better, and i would agree there, but SG are arguably better vs Necrons if they have someone to tank wounds in front. 

 

Librarians

BA spells are quite good, but in most cases Divination is better. If you have an ML 2 libby and don't need perfect timing it might be worth considering taking 2 primaris powers, one from divination and one from BA. Quickening can be very good vs certain matchups. Then theres telepathy (need to ally), if your playing vs lists with lot's of cover save bonuses psychic shriek is probably gonna be best. 

[TheMightyGabriel]

Hey guys! Thanks for the thorough answers, it is all very valuable info for me.
I am indeed very casual atm, I play BA because I love the playstyle, and I play vs friends who have no experience in competitive 40k either.

First of all, why do you think that vanilla codex is much better than BA? Is it only because of chapter tactics?

 

Concerning rhinos and pods, I still have to try a real deep-strike intensive list. Generally, I'm quite reluctant to deep strike melee units as it's a very double edged sword which can fail miserably. I don't enjoy gambits much (if I did, I woulda played Chaos Marines!). I would therefore only deep strike Tactical squads and Land speeders - if any. Thing is, BA vehicles are Fast. This major change from vanilla codex pushes me to think that they have better positional potential, making them generally more cost efficient than standard vanilla codex vehicles. A Fast Vindicator can be very, very scary for any army with elite units.

Remtek you make a good point by suggesting that pods would be better vs Eldar and Rhinos vs Necrons. Such instructive, much reflective, very information. Wow.

As for Heavy Support choices, I have only ever tried the Stormraven once, with DC squad w/ jump packs and DC Dreadnought (for fun, I realize how uncompetitive they are) in it and it worked so very well. Assault vehicle ftw! Which other HS pick would you recommend? I have yet to try the Whirlwind too.

I did not know that dedicated transports gave first blood. Makes sense though. Neither did I know that you could put Jump units in rhinos and pods. Either way, it really makes me question the strength of Assault marines - they're only taken for their potential 3 inferno/flamer/plasma pistols for 5 models huh? (including the sergent)
 

"It's worth noting that Necrons dont receive bonus shots on 6's if they jink so they are much less popular now" Do you mean for Tesla weapons?


Any word on bikes? And scouts?
 

[Sanguine_Blood]

I think they are both good in their own ways. I think people are embittered with C:SM as their scouts are WS/BS4 and their dreadnoughts have 2 more attacks base than ours. This could be errata'd, it may not. Fact is it isn't now, and people are annoyed. The idea is play what you want, and all codex's will work well in their own way when combined with peoples unique play styles.

 

I almost always (80-90% of the time) place my tactical in Pods, give a heavy flamer and a couple meltas and you have a double (combat squad) header in that unit (Anti Armor/Anti infantry). I almost always Pod my Furioso Dreadnoughts. I never run with without a frag cannon, its just too good. Thirdly, I Pod my 5 man Melta assault squads. If you take 3 Pods, 2 arrive on your first turn automatically, allowing you the potential to off high priority targets turn 1. last game I played, I erased a contemptor dreadnought and 5 man lascannon devastator squad turn 1. That's a lot of heat off your back for the whole game. Even better if you get first turn.

 

Fast vehicles. Yes, it's good... That being said, I don't like base predators anymore. Baal pred is a joke, so the only tanks its really really good on are Vindicator's, 12" move then 5" blast, yes please.

 

I try not to put too much into my Stormravens. The ability to carry something, a lot of something, is tempting, but that one time you crash and burn before you can unload, and your whole squad dies, will change your mind. Usually I place a Death Company Dreadnought (Cassor) into the raven. It comes on and and because it's not carrying a lot people tend to forget that the dread is in it - until it disembarks and wrecks a unit it charges. Plus, you are relying on rolling good on reserves.... It has the potential to not see the table until turn 4... the games basically over by then... imaging having a ton of points on it as well....

 

For assault squads, you want to remove their jump packs before going on a pod. They get the pod free that way if you do. If you don't remove the jump packs, I'm not certain you can even use a pod, and if you could even you would have to buy the pod separate as its own Fast attack choice to be able to do that... aka, not worth it.

 

Bikes... I have a Bike squad, I give them 2 grav guns, and a combigrav on the Sergeant. Give an attack bike with Multi Melta... and now every terminator, riptide, wraithknight, 3+/2+ armored unit will hate them...

Scouts... I don't use them that often, but I read everywhere that people like to run CCW scouts. Personally the squad I do have I kit them as snipers with a hellfire heavy bolter. They do well sometimes, other times they are pretty useless.

[Bukimimaru]

First of all, why do you think that vanilla codex is much better than BA? Is it only because of chapter tactics?

 

Uh oh... *the floor begins to rumble, jurrasic park style, as the angry posters come stomping in*

 

 

 

Concerning rhinos and pods, I still have to try a real deep-strike intensive list. Generally, I'm quite reluctant to deep strike melee units as it's a very double edged sword which can fail miserably. I don't enjoy gambits much (if I did, I woulda played Chaos Marines!). I would therefore only deep strike Tactical squads and Land speeders - if any.

 

The general concensus at the moment is that Pod's should be used for Dreadnaughts and meltacide squads.

(A meltacide squad is a 5 man assault marine squad with 2 meltas and a Combi-melta/double inferno pistol to taste.)

Drop pods arn't really "gambits" as you are certain to get half of them on turn one and they dont have to worry about deepstrik mishaps.

 

People generally (as far as I've seen) prefer to put their tac squads in Rhinos, either with flamers or meltas to shoot out the top hatch.

I quite like 5 man tac squads with heavy flamers in a heavy flamer razorback. Its not "cost effective" but its great fun.

[Charlo]

I call this one: "Vulkan Wishes his Boys were this Hot"

 

10 man Tactical

-Flamer

-Heavy Flamer

-Twin Hand Flamers OR a Combi-Flamer OR Combi-Flamer + Veteran Upgrade + Power Weapon on the Sarge

 

There is only one tactic to this: DROP IT LIKE IT'S HOT.

 

Out of a pod you can combat squad, splitting you into two units - thus making you more versatile and giving you an extra grenade to throw for maximum template goodness.

 

You land and hit them with 4 flame templates, 2 grenades (Frag or Krak to taste) and then 10 bolter rounds, then you just need to weather whatever survived that, hint: Not much short of Crons and MEQ, but even on those the wounds add up. Combat squadding helps mitigate extra wounds too!

 

Next turn you put the rifles away and take out the sidearms and keep out the flame. Lay down another four templates, 5 bolt pistols, two more grenades and then charge in with our glorious S/I5 (you are using the BSF, right?), the power weapon on a vet sarge means he can challenge an enemy MEQ, go first and slice him, and a few buddies down before they retaliate.

 

This unit is fun as hell and also a great distraction and will dislodge most pesky Eldar Aspect warriors from cover or just straight up decimate a couple of GEQ/ Ork units.

 

Combine it with a nearby Dread Pod and give both pods Deathwind launchers to further saturate your opponents zone in plastic overlaying devices.

 

It might not always be super effective, but we're the Blood Angel's son, leave the ridig tactic to Rowboat's Scions, we've had one motto since the Great Crusade:

 

SHOCK AND AWE BABY!

 

(The best part? No one else can produce this much fire, in the game, especially for this cost. yeah Sternguard can take a HF and all combi's, but who does that with thier ignore cover ammo anyway?)

[Jolemai]

My flamer brings all the boys to the yard and damn right, it's better than yours.

 

?

[Remtek]

Hey guys! Thanks for the thorough answers, it is all very valuable info for me.

I am indeed very casual atm, I play BA because I love the playstyle, and I play vs friends who have no experience in competitive 40k either.

 

First of all, why do you think that vanilla codex is much better than BA? Is it only because of chapter tactics?

 

Concerning rhinos and pods, I still have to try a real deep-strike intensive list. Generally, I'm quite reluctant to deep strike melee units as it's a very double edged sword which can fail miserably. I don't enjoy gambits much (if I did, I woulda played Chaos Marines!). I would therefore only deep strike Tactical squads and Land speeders - if any. Thing is, BA vehicles are Fast. This major change from vanilla codex pushes me to think that they have better positional potential, making them generally more cost efficient than standard vanilla codex vehicles. A Fast Vindicator can be very, very scary for any army with elite units.

Remtek you make a good point by suggesting that pods would be better vs Eldar and Rhinos vs Necrons. Such instructive, much reflective, very information. Wow.

 

As for Heavy Support choices, I have only ever tried the Stormraven once, with DC squad w/ jump packs and DC Dreadnought (for fun, I realize how uncompetitive they are) in it and it worked so very well. Assault vehicle ftw! Which other HS pick would you recommend? I have yet to try the Whirlwind too.

 

I did not know that dedicated transports gave first blood. Makes sense though. Neither did I know that you could put Jump units in rhinos and pods. Either way, it really makes me question the strength of Assault marines - they're only taken for their potential 3 inferno/flamer/plasma pistols for 5 models huh? (including the sergent)

 

"It's worth noting that Necrons dont receive bonus shots on 6's if they jink so they are much less popular now" Do you mean for Tesla weapons?

 

 

Any word on bikes? And scouts?

 

 

 

BA and Space marines are quite evenly balanced, except when min maxing to make win at all cost lists. It's mainly detachment are formations that seperate us. BS4 scouts and more attacks on dreadnoughts, while annoying do really does change much. Dreads pod in and soak dmg/die vs any decent list, it's rare that they get in close combat regardless. Close combat scouts still usually hit on 4's with ws3 and both die quickly to the same counters. I would not be worried in regards to these changes. Some of their chapter tactics are flat out stronger, but BA are still in a great spot for casual and semi-competitive play (which 95% of the players are doing). What makes our book good is we have very few horrible choices and very few overpowered ones.

 

Since we are quite fragile and fast, making a decent list can be more tricky. Assault lists are much more unforgiving to mistakes so it requires really just playing many games and trying stuff out.  I'd really focus on what appeals to you the most as a lot of playstyles can work. You can't put jump units in pods or rhinos, but you can elect to remove the jump packs and take a 'free' transport. Sanguinary Guard and Death Company are still quite solid if you want jump units, but deepstriking them is generally a bad idea unless you have something specific in mind. BA are still quite good at playing the mission due to our mobility, but we just can go head on vs many lists.  Both scouts and bikes are great units. I prefer to run big bike blobs with a priest to soak dmg, but running small units is also solid.

 

Most of my lists don't include any heavy support, but i do run Dev's, Baal Preds and AC/LC Preds from time to time. Lately i'm partial to the AC/LC predator, since there is so little long range anti tank in the meta, but Dev's can be great too. I love running Baal Predators as well, but they usually underpeform.

 

Yeah, they changed tesla in the new book, so if you jink there is no bonus on 6's.