Jessejk Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Hi all, A question that may have already been answered or a question that doesn't need answering. I'm just reading DeathFire right now (haven't finished as yet), and came to think about Vulkan's regeneration powers. If the Primarchs share some sort of trait of the Emperor, and Vulkan can regenerate, shouldn't the emperor be able to regenerate after his battle with Horus.... Was there some sort of taint that Horus attacked with as it seems Vulkan can regenerate from normal physical damage. Apologies if I have lots of holes in my theory :) Regards Jesse Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 There's some concentration on the possibility that the Emperor, being a Perpetual a la Vulkan, would actually come out in a better state were he allowed to die, which is obviously ironic. As for regeneration specifically, a possibility is that the Emperor kept his own portion of such passive, unconscious abilities much smaller than those of Vulkan's, to prevent any unavoidable loops that could be exploited by the likes of Curze to, well, drive the Big E insane. An Alpha Psyker being set off bonkers on Terra would kinda top Valdor's to-do list of the day. Remember, being of psychic power that He is, he should be able to very well heal himself up back into prime shape of he actively wills it so, therefore the possibility we should consider is that either his injuries are so great that his will is hampered, or he is indeed in a battle of wills with something else (either the collapsed webway, the Astronomican, or the warp) that he simply has no strength to spare. Why another Psyker can't simply heal the Big E himself, well that's my own question. "Matters of Security" protocols imposed by a certain high league of gents who might very well lose their position if he does awake, is a probable explanation. Then again, if Fulgrim tapped out Guilly so well, maybe Horus had something even worse stored up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4120523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 The ability that Vulken and the Emperor has is that of the perpetual and it does seem to be something that can be lost, see John Grammaticus. Now there are reasons why the Emperor could be mortally wounded, for example the ability od the Perpetual may just affect the physical body, and Horus may have wounded the Emperors soul. Also, as Kais Klip suggested, the golden throne may be keeping the Emperor alive, and in a vegetable state. He may need to die to regenerate, or whatever perpetuals do. So the Golden Throne failing could see the Emperor reborn. Or not. We don't really know enough about perpetuals to know how they work, what could kill them, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4120573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Or perhaps he is regenerating. Following it being damaged by Magnus, the Golden Throne requires someone to keep it "shut" and this reduced Malcador to a husk. In theory, what if this should be happening to the Emperor but his regenerative capabilites are merely stopping that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4120574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Kais, definite bonus points for bring up that point. It would be the most grimdark thing ever if Emps would be better off dying so he could regenerate a renewed form, but was actively prevented from doing so by his zealous but misguided followers. That would be such a terrific allegorical irony for the entire 30k/40k universe. Never thought about it up until now. If only someone would euthanize the Emperor he could be regenerated in a functional state to advance the Imperium's rule across the stars. Almost like Tom Cruise in Edge of Tomorrow. But sadly the Emperor has no badass Emily Blunt to put him out of everyone's misery :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4120595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ion Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I have been a proponent of the 'Golden Throne is Preventing His Regeneration' theory personally. Perhaps it's due to a misguided attempt to keep him alive, or perhaps there's a problem if he were to die completely. What if, if the Emperor is gone for even a brief moment (the time needed for him to come back) then something terrible would happen, such as the Chaos Gods gaining complete reign over humanity for a time? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4120607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 ^ That would be a crazy awesome way to advance the story though. Golden throne goes offline, Emperor dies and regenerates only to wake up to an Imperium that was controlled however briefly by the beings he was fighting to hold at bay. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4120879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Since he is holding the webway gate shut and battling the chaos gods in the warp to prevent them penetrating the gate, the premise I had thought was that yes he might respawn, but in that moment chaos would flow through the great gate... Of course then earth would become the warhammer world and the big e finally respawn as sigmar and... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4120918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 What about Ollanius pius? We know he is a perpetual, and he died after his soul was obliterated by Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4120972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ion Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Well, Big E is several magnitudes more powerful than poor old Oll Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4121069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I have always been skeptical of the Perpetual Emperor Theory. He ordered Dorn to place him on the throne, so that rules out the high lords trying to seize power, and if the emperor was a perpetual he would have simply told Dorn to kill him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4121146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ion Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 The whole 'ordered to be put on the throne' could be part of the idea that humanity would be screwed if the emperor wasn't around for even a brief period. It could also be a case of 'just as planned', perhaps he doesn't need those 1000 souls a day to stay alive, but to 'power up' so to speak. 1000 souls a day, 365 days a year, for 10 000 years is a whole lot of additional power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4121158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I think it's pretty well set now that he is a Perpetual. That said, I've never been fond of the idea that he can be revived. I think it serves the story better if the battle against Horus deprived the Emperor of his Perpetuality by its ferocity. It was a battle fought psychically as well as physically, by the two most powerful not-quite-humans to have very lived, by that point in time, and included powers in which souls were erased and immortals obliterated. I don't think it'd be a stretch to say the Emperor had himself enthroned because the alternative was to die, and not come back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4121163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Got to remember if he hadn't of sat on the golden dunny the warp breach would have opened under the palace it was sort of a rage situation even if he had of died and revived Terra would have been lost once Malcador turned to dust. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4121628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Well wasn't his original plan to stick Magnus on the Golden Throne? Maybe that's part of it. It wasn't orginally designed to hold him, it was just kind of a last ditch emergency maneuver to keep the last bit of himself alive, so it operates really inefficiently with an unplanned host. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4121841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 The Emperor telling Form to stuck him on the throne could be Imperial folklore though. There was a sect of the Inquisition who believed if the Emperor died he would be reborn as a full God in the warp, he does seem to have somewhat of a presence in the warp. It could be that his body has been damaged past any perpetual ability. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4121891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I see Dorn throwing him up on there against his will. He is already committed to saving the Imperium. That and saving the Emperot are not one in the same. Super grimdark if that's the case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4121895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I see Dorn throwing him up on there against his will. He is already committed to saving the Imperium. That and saving the Emperot are not one in the same. Super grimdark if that's the case. That doesn't feel like something Dorn would do, imo. He'd try to save the big E through any other means possible -- maybe even sacrificing himself to make sure he did. He'd only ever put The Emperor on the Golden Throne if he was told to do so by him since he would obey that order to the letter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4121900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 The Emperor telling Form to stuck him on the throne could be Imperial folklore though. There was a sect of the Inquisition who believed if the Emperor died he would be reborn as a full God in the warp, he does seem to have somewhat of a presence in the warp. It could be that his body has been damaged past any perpetual ability. It's not that I don't think that can't be possible in this universe, I just don't think it makes for a good story. I would rather it be a decision made by the Emperor as his last ditch hope to keep the whole thing together and to keep himself alive to make it happen, now that he is on his last life. And when he finally does die, his burning soul will go screaming into the void and be consumed. The final moments of a being who would defy the very universe, that cares not at all. The Astronomican simply goes out, with all the apocalyptic consequences that would have. The Imperium becomes little more than isolated worlds and systems, unable to reconnect, and doomed to be enveloped by its enemies piece by piece. In my opinion, that story has more merit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4121911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Conn your account is certinaly more grimdark, and personally I prefer it. But I do like the idea of a different sects particularly in the Imperial hierarchy who want the golden throne to fail as they believe it will bring the Emperor back either physically or as a new God. Adds depth to Inquisitor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4121937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I see Dorn throwing him up on there against his will. He is already committed to saving the Imperium. That and saving the Emperot are not one in the same. Super grimdark if that's the case. That doesn't feel like something Dorn would do, imo. He'd try to save the big E through any other means possible -- maybe even sacrificing himself to make sure he did. He'd only ever put The Emperor on the Golden Throne if he was told to do so by him since he would obey that order to the letter. Sorta. The whole thing with Nemesis and the assassins showed that he is more concerned with winning the war than proctecting the Emperor. He says as much when Valdor tells him that Protecting the Emperor and the Imperium is one in the same. He says that they are not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4122990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I discussed these ideas with some of the authors at a Black Library event last year. They're deliberately avoiding being specific. One of them pointed out to me that Primarchs are not restricted to the traits of the Emperor, e.g. Sanguinius has wings. It could be that the Emperor is immortal in the sense that he doesn't age but that this is a consequence of his psychic will and Vulkan's Perpetual ability to regenerate even from death is a consequence of his exposure to the Warp. Also, as already said, we know Perpetuals can die permanently. Horus didn't just physically wound the Emperor but damaged him spiritually. Four of the first Inquisitors argued and were immediately divided into factions over the question of whether the potential rewards of letting the Emperor die justified the risks of upsetting the status quo. My own idea: what if Dorn and the Emperor only intended for the Golden Throne to be a temporary measure but then Guilliman rolled up with the biggest remaining legion and overruled Dorn? We know that Guilliman was heavy handed with Dorn in the way that he handled the break up of the Legions. I like this idea because we know that Guilliman is a genuinely well intentioned idealist but his Imperium Secundus and the fact that Sanguinius made it from Ultramar to Terra in time shows that Guilliman didn't just fail to save the day, he actively decided to take a different course of action. The Siege of Terra was so close that having an extra loyalist legion the size of the Ultramarines could have made a massive difference to the outcome. Finally, if 40k ever has an End Times (which I hope it doesn't) then perhaps Cypher will complete his journey and use the Lionsword to kill the Emperor and trigger his resurrection? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4125941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arac Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Wasn't the whole Dorn vs. Gully stuff during the late scouring? Also BL said the next proper novel ("The crimson king" ?) would finally explain why the Blood Angels made it back in time to Terra while the UM and DA didn't. I don't think there will ever be an distinctive and complete explanation of the events back then and I hope they don't, too. But if you ask me: the emperor is a perpetual he didn't lose this feat during the fight the throne prevents him from dying if he would die he would "come back" - either in physical form or as some powerful warp entity As for the reasons putting him on the throne - don't forget that even the Big E and his sons are capable of making mistakes and false decisions. So my guess would be that either Dorn didn't know about the whole perpetual thing and just wanted to preserve him, or the Emperor didn't think there would be another psycher powerful enough to Keep the whole machinery running: webway shut, warp rift shut, astronomicon working etc.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310991-the-emperor-and-vulkans-regeneration-powers/#findComment-4126820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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