Battle 07/12: advice appreciated

[Indefragable]

Hey everyone, I would love your tactical advice about my game tomorrow. The only flexibility I would have to change my army would be to swap where special weapons go (should Veterans in Chimera have the Meltas or Plasmas vs the PCS? etc...). Otherwise it's fixed. I would really like to hear how you guys see things going down any tips or tricks you could recommend, such as which squads to park the Primarises (Primarii?) in for maximum effect and what Psyker powers ("you mean there are others besides Divination?") to focus on which squads, etc... Same thing with Orders.

 

IG vs Imperial Fists? It's gonna be a shootout.

 

 

MY ARMY:

 

2000pts CAD


HQ:

Company Command Squad (CCS)
-Commander Camo Gear
-Commander Carapace Armor
-The Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius
-Vox Caster
-Regimental Standard
-Lascannon
-Krak Grenades x 4
-Camo gear x 4
-Astropath w/ Laspistol/CCW
-Master of Ordnance w/ Laspistol/CCW
-Office of the Fleet w/ Laspistol/CCW

Lord Commissar
-The Blade of Conquest
-Deathmask of Olianus
-The Emperor's Benediction

Primaris Psyker x 2
-ML2

Ministorum Priest

Enginseer
-Servitor x 2
-Plasma Cannon

TROOPS:

Infantry Platoon:
Platoon Command Squad (PCS)
-Melta Bomb
-Medi-Pack
-Plasma Gun x 3

Infantry Squad
-Vox Caster
-Autocannon
-Krak grenades x 5

Infantry Squad
-Vox Caster
-Autocannon
-Krak grenades x 5

Infantry Squad
-Vox Caster
-Autocannon
-Krak Grenades x 3

Heavy Weapons Squad
-Lascannon x 3

Heavy Weapons Squad
-Lascannon x 3

-Special Weapons Squad
-Plasma gun x 3

Special Weapons Squad
-Grenade launcher x 3

Conscripts
-Conscripts x 35

TROOPS

Veteran Squad
-Vox-Caster
-Melta gun x 3
-Krak Grenades x 10
-Grenadiers Doctrine (4+)
Chimera
-Multilaser

HEAVY SUPPORT
Basilisk Battery
-Basilisk x 2
-Heavy Flamer x 1
-Heavy Bolter x 1

Manticore
-Heavy Bolter

Wyvern Battery
-Wyvern x 1
-Heavy Bolter

 

 

ENEMY ARMY:

 

### CAD ###########
--- HQ -------------
Pedro Kantor
Chaplain

--- TROOPS ---------
Scouts (10)
10x Bolt Pistol / CC weapon
Veteran Sgt
Powerfist

Scouts (6)
6x Sniper Rifle
6x Camo Cloak

Tactical Squad (9)
Meltagun
Veteran Sgt
Powerfist
Combi-Melta
Rhino

Tactical Squad (9)
Meltagun
Veteran Sgt
Powerfist
Combi-Melta
Rhino


--- ELITES ----------
Dreadnought
TL Lascannon

 

Ironclad Dreadnought.

--- FAST ATTACK ---
Attack Bike (1)
Multi-Melta

Attack Bike (1)
Multi-Melta

Attack Bike (1)
Multi-Melta


--- HEAVY SUPPORT -
Devastator Squad (8)
4x Lascannon

Devastator Squad (8)
4x Lascannon

Land Raider Crusader
Multi-Melta

 

################

 

 

Thank you for your advice! For the Emprah!

[WarriorFish]

As this isn't an army list topic but a tactical one I'm moving it to the main Guard section where it belongs and will get more help

As for the advice itself, in a slugging match you should have the upper hand. Entrenched Marines will fear the shriek of incoming earthshaker shells! However that means that your opponent will decide to come to you - he has Rhinos but not heavy weapons in his Tacs after all. This is why I always recommending planning and expecting the enemy to close as very few will try to out shoot Guard, so having a plan B to adapt to and destroy incoming foes is always useful.

What will his Crusader be transporting? No doubt the Scouts and his commanders, so it must be stopped before it hits your lines. Sending the Vets to intercept would be good here. Bassies should try and take out his Devs, the attack bikers are clearly built to tackle Russes so make sure your infantry form a picket line. For orders, ignoring cover on the AP2 weapons would be fun and of course re-rolls are always useful on your big guns

TL;DR: with a few exceptions he is coming right at you. Target prioritisation will be essential, as well as a secondary plan to intercept, surround and destroy his units when they arrive. He has melta out the wazoo so you know what he's going for, your infantry will be key to neutralising this and winning the battle!

[Truesight]

No army list advice then? Ok.

 

He will come to you, so don't give him one target.  I would recommend separating your long range assets into pockets.  Basilisks on one side, and wyvern and manticore on the other for instance.  Keep your heavy weapon squads in cover if at all possible, they'll need all the help they can get to survive.  I'd put the psyker in a lascannon heavy weapon squad so they have leadership 9 for orders.  You want Bring it Down! orders to not fail.  Infantry squads in front of the artillery to delay the assault, again split.  Ideally you want him to overkill one squad of ten guys to buy your army another turn to blow them off the board.   Keep your veterans chimeras safe, you will need them for late game objective grabbing if possible.

 

Those 35 conscripts will be valuable.  Set them as spread out as possible, and literally run them straight at them.  He should shoot them, wasting his shots, and if he doesn't tie up as much of his army in the fearless melee as possible.

Keep that command squad safe, they have a lascannon, but honestly if they are out of the enemies line of fire that's even better.  They can give orders from safety.

 

Target priority... Lascannons issued with tank hunter shoot at the landraider.  Autocannons blow up the rhinos.  Arty blows up the tac marines while any infantry deal with those scouts which will likely be in your face.  I wouldn't worry about the devastators, keep your artillery out of direct fire, and they don't have much valuable to shoot at.  After the land raider is dead/ immobilised shift fire to the dreadnoughts.

 

Good luck!

[hendrik]

Use the manticore to destroy his landraider on turn 1,while hiding in cover. It's something most oppoents won't expect him to shoot at,but those D3 S10 ordonnance barrage hits just scream antitank to me!in fact,it could outperform triple lascannon heavy weapon teams i believe!

[Indefragable]

As this isn't an army list topic but a tactical one I'm moving it to the main Guard section where it belongs and will get more help

As for the advice itself, in a slugging match you should have the upper hand. Entrenched Marines will fear the shriek of incoming earthshaker shells! However that means that your opponent will decide to come to you - he has Rhinos but not heavy weapons in his Tacs after all. This is why I always recommending planning and expecting the enemy to close as very few will try to out shoot Guard, so having a plan B to adapt to and destroy incoming foes is always useful.

What will his Crusader be transporting? No doubt the Scouts and his commanders, so it must be stopped before it hits your lines. Sending the Vets to intercept would be good here. Bassies should try and take out his Devs, the attack bikers are clearly built to tackle Russes so make sure your infantry form a picket line. For orders, ignoring cover on the AP2 weapons would be fun and of course re-rolls are always useful on your big guns

TL;DR: with a few exceptions he is coming right at you. Target prioritisation will be essential, as well as a secondary plan to intercept, surround and destroy his units when they arrive. He has melta out the wazoo so you know what he's going for, your infantry will be key to neutralising this and winning the battle!

In the past, his Crusader has transported a "Scout bomb" with Pedro Kantor and Tigurius (through Allied Detach) attached. I think he may run it empty this time so he can infiltrate those Scouts to tie up my lines as cover for his rushing vehicles. I agree that he is going to drive at me full force, hoping to get within the min range of the Arty ASAP.

The Plasma PCS and SWS are my "QRF" so that whenever and wherever he eventually breaks through I will have AP2 to greet him.

Should I put the Vet Chimera in Reserves? This is my Ace of the sleeve...I plan on keeping it back and then "driveby" melting whatever vehicles are left standing.

Great advice as always, WarriorFish!

[Indefragable]

No army list advice then? Ok.

 

He will come to you, so don't give him one target.  I would recommend separating your long range assets into pockets.  Basilisks on one side, and wyvern and manticore on the other for instance.  Keep your heavy weapon squads in cover if at all possible, they'll need all the help they can get to survive.  I'd put the psyker in a lascannon heavy weapon squad so they have leadership 9 for orders.  You want Bring it Down! orders to not fail.  Infantry squads in front of the artillery to delay the assault, again split.  Ideally you want him to overkill one squad of ten guys to buy your army another turn to blow them off the board.   Keep your veterans chimeras safe, you will need them for late game objective grabbing if possible.

 

Those 35 conscripts will be valuable.  Set them as spread out as possible, and literally run them straight at them.  He should shoot them, wasting his shots, and if he doesn't tie up as much of his army in the fearless melee as possible.

Keep that command squad safe, they have a lascannon, but honestly if they are out of the enemies line of fire that's even better.  They can give orders from safety.

 

Target priority... Lascannons issued with tank hunter shoot at the landraider.  Autocannons blow up the rhinos.  Arty blows up the tac marines while any infantry deal with those scouts which will likely be in your face.  I wouldn't worry about the devastators, keep your artillery out of direct fire, and they don't have much valuable to shoot at.  After the land raider is dead/ immobilised shift fire to the dreadnoughts.

 

Good luck!

 

You can tear apart the list and offer suggestions, I just can't really make any changes. It always useful to hear how others would have built their armies (mine has much to do with models I have built/own).

 

I planned on trying to spread things out a bit, but I like your idea two separate "bastions" with interlocking fire. Attacking one will expose the other.

 

As you pointed out, the Devastators are not particularly worrisome to me as anything they can threaten will be surrounded by cheap bodies and they will have to move into range before being able to to fire at full BS (exposing them to my return fire).

 

Thanks for the tips!

Use the manticore to destroy his landraider on turn 1,while hiding in cover. It's something most oppoents won't expect him to shoot at,but those D3 S10 ordonnance barrage hits just scream antitank to me!in fact,it could outperform triple lascannon heavy weapon teams i believe!

 

I was actually thinking of targeting the Landraider w/ all my arty the first Turn. I am counting on area saturation of large blast plates to cause some damage. I figure scattering might actually help me a bit.

[Indefragable]

few quick general questions:

 

A) statistically speaking, 5+ armor + 5+ FNP has better survivability against Gets Hot than 4+ Carapace Armor, right? that's why I put Plasma in the PCS instead of the Vets (and gives the meltas mobility)

 

B) Do Orders and Psyker powers stack? Should they ever be in range, I am thinking "Front Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire!" + Prescience on the Conscripts could be epically hilariously awesome.

[Truesight]

few quick general questions:

A) statistically speaking, 5+ armor + 5+ FNP has better survivability against Gets Hot than 4+ Carapace Armor, right? that's why I put Plasma in the PCS instead of the Vets (and gives the meltas mobility)

Do Orders and Psyker powers stack? Should they ever be in range, I am thinking "Front Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire!" + Prescience on the Conscripts could be epically hilariously awesome.

Orders and psykers stack, and yes it is awesome. :)

5+, 5+FNP is better in theory than carapace, but consider that bolters, and many other common weapons ignore 5+ armour. That PCS and your plasma would likely die in one volley of fire from a tactical squad, with carapace they might live, but honestly a Chimera is best. Platoon Command squads for me have been best used loading up on guns and grabbing a transport for protection, or going bare minimum and just accepting they'll die.

If you are open to suggestions, given that those are your models I might have a tinker see if some fat can be trimmed.

[Truesight]

Alright, so I had a play in battlescribe and using a 'boys before toys' approach removed most of the luxury gear, and the enginseer, and managed to bring the list down to a tight 1500, while keeping it structurally the same.  If you find yourself a little overmatched in your game, consider asking your opponent for a 1500 point rematch.

 

1500pts CAD


HQ:

Company Command Squad (CCS)

Lord Commissar

Primaris Psyker x 2
-ML2

Ministorum Priest

TROOPS:

Infantry Platoon:
Platoon Command Squad (PCS)

Infantry Squad
-Autocannon

Infantry Squad
-Autocannon

Infantry Squad
-Autocannon

Heavy Weapons Squad
-Lascannon x 3

Heavy Weapons Squad
-Lascannon x 3

-Special Weapons Squad
-Plasma gun x 3

Special Weapons Squad
-Grenade launcher x 3

Conscripts
-Conscripts x 35

Veteran Squad
-Melta gun x 2

Chimera
-Multilaser

HEAVY SUPPORT

Basilisk Battery
-Basilisk x 2
-Heavy Flamer x 1
-Heavy Bolter x 1

Manticore
-Heavy Bolter

Wyvern Battery
-Wyvern x 1
-Heavy Bolter

[WarriorFish]

Boys before toys is good, but even so it's best to give all the boys at least one toy ;) Even if it's just a flamer those command squads could do much more with something, but for a tight squeeze sacrifices are often necessary and CS toys are a good starting point as they can at least keep busy with orders.

 

Regarding the actual list, I'd not reserve the Vets. They're short range and it would be better to have them on the table from the start, I don't think you gain much by using reserves. You'll need every gun to wither them as they advance.

[Indefragable]

Quick BR (I will do a more detailed one when I get the chance):

 

I lost (somewhat expected).

 

Main reasons were "too many toys to keep track of" and spreading out too much. Being one of my first IG matches, and a 2000pt one at that, I forgot to use all my Orders, let alone make the best use of them. My brain shut down a bit trying to maximize Movement to gain the best advantages while making the best use of BOTH Orders and Psyker powers and things just fell through the gaps. I suppose you just get the hang of it playing enough. I also forgot who had what equipment sometimes (like Tactical Auto-Reliquary, that Lord Commissar had Precision Shot pistol, etc...)

 

MVP: Manticore. Killed Landraider, Rhino, 5 Tacticals, 5/7 Devastators and an Attack Bike. The first 3 in a single volley (rolled a 6 on the D3 for shots).

 

LVP: Basilisks. Killed I think 3 Tactical Marines the entire game. Partially due to some damn lucky shooting from his other Dev squad early on, but still. Come on guys.

 

Most "bleh" unit: Melta Veterans in the Chimera. This was supposed to be the strategic reserve, the backfield unit driving around roasting things broke through. They killed his Ironclad before it could roast my CCS/Lascannon Teams, so yea, that was clutch, but that was all they did. A lot of it was my chronic indecision of how exactly to use them, but he had so many Multi-Meltas zooming around (3x Attack Bikes, Land Raider) as well as every Tactical Squad having Melta and his outflanking scouts having Krak grenades, that I felt hemmed in from so many directions. Perhaps if I had 2x of them it would have been a different story.

 

Most potential in a Unit: Special Weapon Squads. having small, "lightweight" special weapons teams running around was actually pretty great. They seemed to punch above their weight class, even the Krak GL guys. I think the secret was that I "didn't care" about these guys. I sent them towards their deaths hoping they would at least go down swinging and they did that and more. In contrast, to quote Top Gun, I was "holding on too tight" to my Veterans and got not much out of them.

 

The single biggest change I will probably make moving forward is Combined Squads. Lasguns need weight of fire and to get the most out of FRFSRF you really need to have Units of 20. The Conscripts got 72 shots off at one point, but I just had some epically bad rolls...even by the standards of dealing with Conscripts. That theory is still sound, I feel.

 

Thank you again for your help and I will post a more specific Battle Report whenver I can get to it this week.

[WarriorFish]

Best way to learn is by playing, so you will do better next time :) When in doubt I find it best to be aggressive with mobile units, you can't go wrong by killing things :P

[hendrik]

shame you lost but atleast i hope you enjoyed playing with the imperial guard?

too many toys to keep track of easely happens with imperial guard! have you considered writing down some hints on your armyroster? thus as you check profiles etc you'll be reminded of certain things. (some of my old rosters had ORDERS!! written all over them as i used to forget them in every game!

a very good guideline for guardsmen is to go for less toys, more boys! try to make models WYSIWYG, as that will make things easier as well. I always put the specialist model of my infantry squad on the back of my chimeras as A it doesn't interfere with gameplay, and B it visually helps both you (and your opponent) to keep track of what unit is hidden in which vehicle.

[WarriorFish]

WYSIWYG is best if possible. Easier for you and your opponent, you'd be surprised how much of a difference it makes in keeping track of things and speeding games up :)

[Indefragable]

Best way to learn is by playing, so you will do better next time :) When in doubt I find it best to be aggressive with mobile units, you can't go wrong by killing things :P

My opponent is pretty much the best player at my club, so I feel pretty good all things considered. Didn't quite Go the Distance but not getting KO'ed in Round 1 was sort of a victory in and of itself.

 

I definitely am eager to play Guard even more. As I mentioned in other posts, I love the "problem solving" angle of tactics and strategies you have to use with IG. It really is so easy to take SM stats for granted. You have to remember that a SM Tactical squad is ~150pts, so you should be engaging that Tac w/ 3x Infantry Squads (3x ~50). Whether to do one big blob of 30 or 3x10 is part of the fun challenge of Guard. Again, it feels much more like being in a command tent somewhere pushing pieces across one of those old school "tactical shuffle boards" they always show in old war movies...exactly how playing IG should feel!

[Indefragable]

shame you lost but atleast i hope you enjoyed playing with the imperial guard?

too many toys to keep track of easely happens with imperial guard! have you considered writing down some hints on your armyroster? thus as you check profiles etc you'll be reminded of certain things. (some of my old rosters had ORDERS!! written all over them as i used to forget them in every game!

a very good guideline for guardsmen is to go for less toys, more boys! try to make models WYSIWYG, as that will make things easier as well. I always put the specialist model of my infantry squad on the back of my chimeras as A it doesn't interfere with gameplay, and B it visually helps both you (and your opponent) to keep track of what unit is hidden in which vehicle.

My guys are pretty much WYSIWYG...it was more the Heirloom stuff (how do you guys represent Tactical Auto-Reliquary and Desthmask of Olianus?) and the little things. I remembered the Deathmask gave my Lord Commissar 4++ but I forgot the other things it did (like IWND). Nothing that would have changed the outcome, but taken together it was too many things to keep consistently track of.

 

Best example was I think Turn 5 where he parked his surviving Rhino up in front of "the Alamo" where my HWTs and CCS were dug in, blocking LoS towards his Tacs taking an obj. The way the Rhino was positioned he got 4+ Cover. I had my dismounted Melta Vets, a 3x Lascannon HWT and the Vet Lascannon in the CCS to shoot it with. I was trying to maximize every shot since it was late in the game and my non-lasgun weaponry was evaporating. I gave Ignores Cover to the HWT via the Psyker but completely forgot to use the Ignores Cover Order on the Melta Vets who I ended up shooting it with. Things like that are what tripped me up. Only a Turn or 2 before I used Ignores Cover and Prescience on that same Vet squad to nuke his double-Flamer Ironclad bearing down on said "Alamo."

 

Edit: adding some more. Hit send too soon before

[nismogrendel]

 

<snip>

My guys are pretty much WYSIWYG...it was more the Heirloom stuff (how do you guys represent Tactical Auto-Reliquary and Desthmask of Olianus?)

For the Reliquary, check this thread for inspiration: (post #326)

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301374-dragging-the-guard-back-out-ogryn-chop-shop-pg-13/page-14

 

For the Deathmask, I saw someone suggest in another thread to use part of a Sanguinary Guard head:

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Sanguinary-Guard

[SW1]

Was going to post a link to my thread for having fun with the Heirloom stuff but nismogrendel has already got that covered. ;)

 

Basically just look at the written discription to get a visual idea of what it looks like in your mind and then raid the old bits boxes. The more I'm messing around with converting the less worried I am about getting an exact match up size wise with different bits as long as it looks ok from an arms distance it should be ok.

 

For example the Aquila size wise, is more comparable to a hunting hawk than an eagle (it's a converted hunting hawk so it's to be expected). But it looks alright and when painted up should be fine.

 

Just have fun trying new stuff out and if you get stuck, post up details/pics and you'll find plenty of advice on here.