Well that didn't go so well

[Daevyll]

Had a game this weekend, and got spanked hard.

 

We played 1250 pts, I took a Deathwing/Ravenwing combo list, my opponent fielded Necrons. Neither of us fielded really nasty lists, just a friendly game. The issue is not so much that I lost, but that I lost so utterly and without any hope of winning at any point.

 

After due analysis, the main problem was my low model count. Anyone can have a bad roll, but when you have a few bad rolls at the beginning with the low modelcount of a Deathwing/Ravenwing army you simply don't have the resilience to recover.

 

I'm not even talking really freaky rolls, but things like two 1's on 3 dice for 2+ saves; bad luck, but nothing we haven't seen happen many times. The point is that, in a unit of 5 terminators, that is 40% of the unit gone. Just a couple of rolls like that, and you cannot bounce back because you simply don't have the models.

Combine it with something like a failed charge at 4" range with Black Knights, leaving them out in the open to get shot to pieces, and you can see the problem I'm sure.

 

It just starts a sort of cascade. You have fewer models, therefore do less damage in return, leaving more enemies alive, which then kill still mroe of your few remaining models, repeat. Unless you 'compensate' by having freakingly good dicerolls later, a few bad rolls early on followed by average rolling later on handicaps you a lot more than it feels it should when playing with ~25 models.

 

So what is your opinion? Am I doing something horribly wrong? Am I simply at the mercy of RNG when playing DW/RW? Should I play Tri-wing and bulk up my numbers with tacticals? 

 

 

[Jazzhands]

Think you just had a bad game. Happens to all of us

[Frater Cornelius]

I have indeed noticed it when running RW-heavy lists and Triwing. A few bad dice on the offensive and you are done, because you lack resilience and Jink reduced your output by too much.

Necrons are the exact counter-example. Loads of bodies and high resilience. Bad dice are less of an occurrence due to the amount of dice they throw. The more I play DA, the more I gravitate towards one invincible RWCS unit with Iron Hand Chapter Master Smashbane and loads of Greenwing dakka with a few RW support elements. The rest just seems... too soft.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think you can chalk this one to the dice. Necrons aren't easy and if you're low on bodies, then each dice that makes you lose more than you should will hurt. That's the gambel we all make with these kind of armies.

 

Cheers!

[SnakeChisler]

I don't think its just the dice rolls had 2 games against Necrons this week and they are so tough to kill its like wading through mud waste deep

 

Game 1 1500 point list

Ravenwing SF Sammael + CS + some bikes

Deathwing SF Librarian Knights + Command Squad banner FNP

Support Formation (Shroud 3 * 2 HB speeders)

 

Necrons Lyche Guard + Lord + royal Court (2 res orbs + other stuff)  + Night scythe Worriors (Lots) Imortals * 2 10 man all on foot all Obj-Sec

 

 So freaky dice rolls aside the Ravenwing element turbo'd for the double jink popping wheelies in front of all his fire power staying just outside of double tap range & the support squad was out of range of his 24" guns

His turn 1 nothing happened loads of shooting re-roll 2+ & FNP isn't going to do much Speeders cut 7 warriors

 

Turn 2 Kicks off down come the deathwing I now even more have board control and racked up a lot of points Librarian makes his big immortal squad snap shoot Ravenwing CS moves forward manages to kill a couple of Immortals Sam Joins Deathwing Knights and gets ready for the return salvo.

 

Shorten version Sam sat in front of the Knights jinking and the Librarian made a squad a turn snap shoot as well as giving Rage when I charged, when his plane came in the support squad stripped 2 hull points off it and after all the shooting his deathstar Lyche Guard squad sat in front of me.

I charged both squads into it but with all the 2+ & re-rolls + Res Orbs they stayed locked in combat for the next 2 turns & the Ravenwing CS went round the edges killing other stuff.

 

Even with all those assault attacks and a full squad of Deathwing Knights + Terminators with nearly every buff under the sun he still came out top eventually but by that time the game was well beyond him in terms of points though he'd got some Lyche guard left but the rest of his force was in tatters.

 

Game 2 is following a similar pattern though were on hold at the mo its 2000 points and we're so close points wise we'll finish it at the weekend only got to the top of turn 4

Board control again is the domain of the Dark Angels but I switched things round and drop podded the Knights and am Running the Psyker conclave instead of the Deathwing formation (CAD Chaplain(Bike) DK + Pod + 2 TAC squads + Conclave 2 on bikes)

 

Jinking Sam finally fell which is a shame but I've blown all his armor up so no more warriors getting resurrected, managed to kill 6 wraiths with a combo of Rage Force & mind Wipe but my DK and Chaplain are gone.

 

It feels like you have to throw the kitchen sink at a Necron to just kill 1 anyways the support formation is earning its corn and the Talon created a Vortex which sucked his Ghost Ark up + the Ravenwing CS did its usual job of downing his planes with twin linked plasma (bit of help from the conclave with ignores cover)

 

I feel no shame at all using some really dirty tricks as he's got double res orbs a boss that changes warlord traits to grab extra points & god knows what else. 

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

killed me plenty of necrons with 3 landspeeders and a vengence of course they were focused on the 7,200 points of allies but still they die haha. Just blast them with the rockets each round and shoot them with tons of shots haha.

Sadly got outflanked by some Tau formation and had to tactically withdraw before getting his lord lol

[Frater Cornelius]

Running them down in melee is your best bet to kill them. Tried and true method ;)

[Kewl Imp]

Same thing happens with models that have a lot of Ignore cover. Both codexes I have a consistent problem with Tau. i found that first turn Turbo Boost and you destroy their range, yes they will double tap but you get to charge turn 2 and even with assault jump moves, its hard to get away from a 36" move on turn 1.

[Stormxlr]

Running them down in melee is your best bet to kill them. Tried and true method

I dont know about that, I ran multiple DW units and ran them into melee and just got tar-pitted sooo bad. The best way I found to deal with 'Crons is plasma and vindicators. Lascannons do well too. High powered low ap. So you get that Instant Death trigger therefore Reanimation Protocol goes up by one, and they cant take armor saves.

Warriors still died to massed bolter fire.

[Frater Cornelius]

By 'run them down' I mean 'sweeping advance'. Kind of obvious why that did not work with DW :P

 

The way I usually dealt with 20 Necron blobs is to charge them with my Chapter Master + Command Squad instead of shooting them with Grav. They usualy fail to do anything, while the enemy loses a good bunch of dudes. I5 vs I2 is not a contest after that. I imagine the same would work with RWCS + Character. Probably even better than with SM.

[SnakeChisler]

The latest codex gives the Necron player the option for all sorts of buffs to re-animation + invulnerable saves with re-roll 1's in some cases

 

They've upped the Toughness of key units to 5 so your not able to Instant Death them any more added to which Vehicles have living Metal so they ignore crew stunned and have buffed the Ghost Ark Array to Salvo

 

Wraiths can be taken on by Terminators but the changes have meant the Ravenwing Command Squad keep well clear as the whip coils make them I5

 

They don't do very well at initiative tests tho (Blind from the Talon also the relic conversion field etc.) and if you Spam Psykers they struggle to stop anything so the Conclave is very effective.

 

The shift to a 4+ FNP like save with sometimes a re-roll and sometimes a re-roll 1 means there not getting cut down in combat like they used to. 

[Olataro]

I play necrons and ravenwing. I can tell you that you are by far outclassed in nearly everyway. But don't give up.

 

When facing crons, one thing to be wary about are wraiths. Those guys are nearly impossible to kill and they can really rip your bikes to shreds. I once used them to tarpit 2 bloodthirsters for 5 game turns. They are nasty as you can expect.

[Frater Cornelius]

Wraiths + Orikan is the single most annoying unit to take down... D does the job, but DA do not have reliable D in their book. You could add Knights though.

[Daevyll]

Thanks for replies all... I feel a bit better for them ;)

 

Melee isnt quite the solution I feel. I did get into melee with both Deathwing squads, but that doesn't really solve much. 3 Terminators have 6 attacks, 4 hit, 3 wound, 1 gets saved by reanimation protocols, that's 2 Necrons dead. They are what, 11 points?

[Stormxlr]

Melee is not a solution anymore what i found that works well are Vindicators and lascanons and our favorite plasma :D

 you need to force Instant Death (to lower Reanimation Protocol) and Vindicators do that quite well. Lascanon devastators are affordable, plant them in a tall building or ruin and they will bring the pain.

Plasma will force RP saves to Warriors ignoring armor.

Another thing that would work well is a Librarius conclave, they basically cant deny you so go ahead, send them to the warp.

And the last thing that always works is massed bolter fire. Always worked , always will.

[Solrac]

One of my games I had an Int Chaplain and a unit of 6 Black Knights overrun 2 separate units of warriors. Chaplain made mince meat of them with his Crozius and then the Black Knights got to attack with their re-rolls to hit. Best unit combo to take out Necron Warriors I reckon.

 

Wraiths are always scary but just remember the Necron player can have bad rolls also not to mention massed small arms brings them down just like our terminators. Wraiths in a Decurion are a different kettle of fish all together.

 

Last week my Chaplain and Black Knights held up a unit of 5 Wraiths for 3 Turns. I forgot to hit and run which means they would have been dead earlier but you get that. The 4 Wraiths that were left who were all on one wound each charged my unit of 10 Devastators in my back line. They held up the Wraiths untll the end of Turn 7. I managed to draw that game 2 - 2. Was good fun.

 

Ever since our new book I've been a huge advocate of 5 man tac squads with a Grav-cannon in a Rhino. Doesn't have the range of a Razorback true but you the Tac squad is protected by the Rhino and you are still able to shoot your expensive Grav-cannon making it worth it not to mention you can overwatch with it when someone charges said Rhino.

[IndigoJack]

RWCS + libby conclave + darkshroud has been my answer to necrons. the conclave runs buffs/debuffs, darkshroud provides cover and prevents overwatch, and the command squad with grenade launcher blinds them with a stasis shell and then beats units into the ground. Yes, crons are very durable, but you only need to kill a few to give you the advantage to sweep. If their blind, they're not hitting for crap, and you can always H&R out at the end of their turn and try again. I also run my RWCS with a int chaplain. Hatred makes hitting on 4s much more palatable.

[Elios Harg]

Stasis grenade doesn't blind.

[Prot]

Necrons love to face elite armies. The lower your model count, the better for the Necron player.

 

Necrons die slow, but they kill slow. Having ObSec is actually key against them. None of the formations in the book have ObSec (just CAD of course).

 

Those are the two biggest factors I can give you for facing the army since I do play Necrons.

 

When I see a very small model count, with very strong models, it's a good thing. A gauss weapon knows no difference in glancing a Landraider or a rhino for instance. Since most things do not diminish Reanimation Protocols, the 'death star' type lists hit a bit of a road block against Necrons.

 

To give you an example... my last Necron loss? I was actually playing the Decurion (which I hardly use) and lost to.... Orks. Yup... plain, vanilla, knobby kneed, red vest wearing Orks. Too much CC, too many bodies. They are good at throwing fist fulls of junk at the wall and seeing what sticks.

 

Fortunately in my meta most people seem into playing 30ish models in 1850 which is great for Necrons.

 

The second tip I mention: ObSec, coincides with the inability to kill stuff fast enough.... even Wraiths can be horribly slow to kill stuff. Most of the army CAN kill anything, but it is typically slooooow.

 

I've had piles of Warriors stuck on a few Guardsman that are stubborn and won't run.... stealing objectives out from me left and right. Maelstrom and Modified Maelstrom can be really rough on Necrons without any ObSec and typically slow lists.

 

Personally, if I knew I was fighting Necrons and was list tailoring, I wouldn't even bother with terminators. Terminators and bikes? That's really hard at 1250 period, never mind against a numerically superior force that is highly survivable.

 

That's my basic advice. Don't beat yourself up. With the right combo of bikes, hitting and running on them does work. But you do need to mitigate the body count as best you can.