Jinking is for the weak!

[Frater Cornelius]

That is the combo I want to try out some time soon:

Chapter Master Smashface - Bike, Artificer Armour, Thunderhammer, Gorgon's Chains

Interrogator Chaplain - Bike, Mace of Redemption, Auspex

RWCS - 6 dudes, 1 Grenade Launcher

 

The whole idea is to fix the weaknesses of the RWBK. First, having to Jink for their defense. Jinking means reduced effectiveness of the Talons and prevent you from firing the excellent Stasis Grenade. The Smashface has a 2+, 3++, EW, IWND and a 3+ FnP. He essentially brings a 3+ re-rollable without having to Jink. Of cause, this guy gets weaker the more wounds he takes, so there is a limit to how much he can take. The IH version with Shield Eternal is the next best thing. Only a 4+ FnP but consistent.

 

The second is WS4, I4 in melee. Being able to fire the Stasis Grenade and having Hatred ontop of two solid beatsticks allows this unit to eat Thunderwolves and ask for more.

 

I hope this is what it takes to make the bloody unit work. Much better than the SM CS though.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Nice, but I would prefer a solution that doesn't mean allied tax. Spending 200 something points to make RWBK "work", well sincerely I just prefer to use those same points to buy more RWBK or anything else to keep my DA ally free. My personalreference of course... I just don't like allies because they don't fit in my army fluff poor as it may be.

 

You can always go for Lib on bike and try to get invisibility so you don't have to jink the RWBK. Or use Sammael instead of the Allied CM since he also has eternal warrior. Together with the squads apoth, Sammael can tank shots as well, though not so good as smashface of course.

[Frater Cornelius]

Aye, that is the 'pure' version. Sammy instead of CM. I save 45-55pts, since I am taking Scouts either way. That unit is faster due to Sammy's trait, but tanks less. Still quite decently if you are happy run hug cover more often and have both characters drive around with 1HP each after the enemy alpha strike. I use the same model for CM and Sammy, so the difference is that I used up my two-faction limit. Since I do not run a Knight with DA at any point level so far (because making the most of DA requires more points than I like to admit *grumble*).

But yeah, I can see your points about allies. The naked versions did not work for me though.

[SnakeChisler]

Sammael with Ravenwing is so much better because of the hit and run

 

You can drop pod Knights now so not much to stop some real shenanigins

[Frater Cornelius]

I do not see your point. RWCS can hit and run by default. Sammy does not change anything. The Chapter Master almost consistently outperforms Sammael in terms of leading the RWCS. Also, not sure what DWK have to do with this.

[Kewl Imp]

For me I use Sammael over anyone else but I set him in a regular squad of bikers and put the I Chap with the RWCS(fully fitted out). The rerolls in the round of combat, they normally lose if I wiff all the rolls. However that squad performs very well more often than not. You don't need a smash face. Sammy with eternal warrior is all that is needed. Black knights don't need fixing because in my experience they aren't broke or too weak. my gaming store, people fear my black knights because too many times they charge turn 2 and just eat up whatever they got into combat with.

[SvenONE]

You know I saw your post on "naked rwbk" and was going to respond there but I think this will do just as well.  First I'm not exactly sure what "naked" means exactly.  But I'm with Lucifer on this, spending 200+ points on a single model + the obligatory troops to go with him seems like it's adding a false sense of security.  For the points you're spending why not just bring more RWBKs.  Also, you don't have to jink, yes against AP2 and AP3 weaponry you will, but if you know AP2 and 3 weaponry is on the table, you also have the option of you know... using that 12" + 12" turbo boost to your advantage, scouting, terrain and even vehicles to block LOS to those models.  Which would you rather have, that AP2 weaponry being wasted on a 35 point Rhino or a squad of Black Knights?

 

I've really never had them perform as consistently as poor as you claim they have for you.  Full disclosure I haven't run them yet in the new codex, but aside from their cost and the major change to the RAD charge, they're really the same unit and look forward to using them in the future.  In fact, as crummy as the change to the RAD charge was, I found myself usually using the stasis grenade more often than not in 6th edition, only when dealing with MC did I really use the rad charge.

 

Let's not forget what RWBKs are, and that's bikes.  They are normal bikers who have better weapons in both melee and ranged.  As such, their cost reflects that.  Personally I think they should have gone to 35 points because this generation of the game isn't really a place for expensive 1W models who excel in both melee and ranged.  I'd prefer that BK were more like DWK vs DWT, you've got options for shooty, and options for melee, but they're both cheaper than a model that is both shooty and punchy. 

 

All that said, RWBKs are awesome and hands down one of the best entries in this book, and that was even before the price reduction.  One of the things I found after playing the 6th ed codex so heavily was that splitting your army rarely works out.  When I first started playing I would deep strike turn 1 Belial and a squad of terminators to some backfield, lightly populated side of my opponent's board. Well, for the next 2 turns while my army tried to catch up to an effective position on the table but the damage would be done.  Belial's terminators would be whittled down and maybe ultimately tarpitted by cultists or some other line troops.

 

But I started to rethink it, I started deep striking turn 2, I stopped combat squadding my tactical squads, I kept my force as one main ball of firepower.  Black Knights neither lead the army, or ever break off from the main group.  Basically the rule of thumb is, don't present your opponent with the easy target.  You need to make them weigh their options.  You're exactly right when you say that jinking causes them to lose combat effectiveness.  But don't forget that 5 black knights (10 dice) that are rapid-firing twin-linked plasma talons are still going to score at least 2 wounds against an enemy, and that's AP2 weaponry, as opposed to 6 gravgun shots who aren't twin linked and lack the melee power if they charge.  Then once you DO charge, you're looking at HOW, and 4 attacks per model.  Because you brought a Darkshroud like a good 2nd Company master, your opponent didn't Overwatch you either.

 

I would really challenge you to ask yourself if you're playing RWBKs to the best of your ability before adding a Vanilla company master who in any group performs extremely well, after all, what happened to Sammael? Are you already using him to begin with? 

 

In the 2 years since this models inception, it's easily been one of the better performing units in the book and we've rarely seen complaints about them.

[Frater Cornelius]

If I am using my RWBK incorrectly, I have yet to see the errors. I am sure I make mistakes though, because now that I think about it, I am pretty much the only one complaining here. But they really have no been all that hot for me. The weekend there is a pretty big tournament coming up. Although I will not be attending, I have been playing against some guys who would like to attend and wanted to practice. I mainly played UM and DA against WS Battle Company, WS CAD, DA, Eldar, Knorne Daemonkin, and I saw DA play against another Eldar player as well.

 

Against WS I usually ran out of steam with DA. A lot of Grav Cannons and Assault Cannons force my BK to jink. But when it came to doing melee against the offenders, I usually lost 1 RWBK per assault. When Khan and his CS got stuck in, I lost the entire unit.

Against Eldar, the Dark Shroud whiffed turn 1 against a Wave Serpent and the Bikes were forced to jink and then ignored. They tried to assault the Jetbikes, but ultimately they lost about 1 model per turn. In both cases, the Greenwing did not survive more than 1 turn on the board.

 

The other cause might also be that the supporting element for the BK was bad. Maybe they function better in pure RW lists. I only saw and tried Green + Black. Green usually died early, leaving the bikes to do their job. It is very possible that the bikes were trying to do a job that would have required more dudes.

 

I never really tried pure RW, seeing as I am not a fan of pure bike lists. It is perfectly possible that they perform far better in pure bike lists I my mistakes were not on the table but during army creation.

 

Whatever the case, it is obvious that I am doing something wrong. I never had so much trouble creating a list with any book prior to this one. But I am no seal pup either, so I must be doing something right... I hope. I mean, I have not lost with UM yet, but DA wins were always shaky and I lost twice with them.

[SnakeChisler]

I think the double Jink and Sammael's warlord trait change the game completely

 

He can now get a 2+ 2+ Jink he's eternal warrior by default and adds 3" to Run & most of all Charge moves

 

With him you also have the tactical flexibility to spoon him off into a Terminator squad to increase their Charge & Run Moves as well as tank incoming hits and do the old hit and run if someone tries to tar pit you up.

[WellSpokenMan]

If I am using my RWBK incorrectly, I have yet to see the errors. I am sure I make mistakes though, because now that I think about it, I am pretty much the only one complaining here. But they really have no been all that hot for me. The weekend there is a pretty big tournament coming up. Although I will not be attending, I have been playing against some guys who would like to attend and wanted to practice. I mainly played UM and DA against WS Battle Company, WS CAD, DA, Eldar, Knorne Daemonkin, and I saw DA play against another Eldar player as well.

 

Against WS I usually ran out of steam with DA. A lot of Grav Cannons and Assault Cannons force my BK to jink. But when it came to doing melee against the offenders, I usually lost 1 RWBK per assault. When Khan and his CS got stuck in, I lost the entire unit.

Against Eldar, the Dark Shroud whiffed turn 1 against a Wave Serpent and the Bikes were forced to jink and then ignored. They tried to assault the Jetbikes, but ultimately they lost about 1 model per turn. In both cases, the Greenwing did not survive more than 1 turn on the board.

 

The other cause might also be that the supporting element for the BK was bad. Maybe they function better in pure RW lists. I only saw and tried Green + Black. Green usually died early, leaving the bikes to do their job. It is very possible that the bikes were trying to do a job that would have required more dudes.

 

I never really tried pure RW, seeing as I am not a fan of pure bike lists. It is perfectly possible that they perform far better in pure bike lists I my mistakes were not on the table but during army creation.

 

Whatever the case, it is obvious that I am doing something wrong. I never had so much trouble creating a list with any book prior to this one. But I am no seal pup either, so I must be doing something right... I hope.

I'm curious if you make use of the Grenade Launcher for the Black Knights.  With an Initiative and WS advantage, they should tear through most units in CC.  Ravenwing bikes or Black Knights can't really deal with Scat bikes, but Speeders can. 

 

You appear to be playing almost exclusively against top tier lists.  It's quite possible that DA, while much improved, is just not at that level.  It's also possible that it will just take a while to find the sweet spot.  The current crop of tourney lists are very similar to lists that have been run for a while.  Trying to make DA work means starting from scratch.  I do think that (at least on paper) IG+DA can make a top tier list, if you want to try that out.

[Frater Cornelius]

I would love to make use of it, but people have figured out that you need to make them jink. Thus I did not have the opportunity. But I do not think that DA can not compete. I think that we simply have not found the mono-DA sweet spot yet. The allied shenanigans like the Thunderwolf Star and so forth still function very well, but the dynamic of the mono-DA force seems to have changed. I had an easier time competing with the 6ed book, because list-building was more straight forward. Take FnP or Dakka Banner, win games.

Now things are more complex. Well, to some extend. I do not doubt that RWSS + RWBK + RWCS + RWAS spam will do nicely, but that is not the kind of list I am very fond of.

 

I have thought about DA + IG. On paper it looks good, but in practice, you might be better off with Scout spam instead of vets and some very good combos will have a very high tax. I am determined to find a mono-DA, non-FW Green/Black build.

[mika_angelus]

If I am using my RWBK incorrectly, I have yet to see the errors. I am sure I make mistakes though, because now that I think about it, I am pretty much the only one complaining here. But they really have no been all that hot for me. The weekend there is a pretty big tournament coming up.

 

 

I think you still use them as a shooting unit.

Since 7th edition came, they changed roles, they are not a shooting unit with combat ability, but a CC unit with some shooting ability. I use them that way and they are performing great.

Try to set up turn 2 charges and go from there, If you will be able to end the combat with a unit in your opponents turn, then and possibly only then you will be able to use their shooting.

Apart from that, jink all the time and charge, charge, charge :)

 

Oh and take the champion! A 5 point power weapon with better strenght and WS is amazing.

[Elios Harg]

I agree with the sentiment that black knights are an assault unit. The solution to being forced to jink is to charge. If you think about it, knights have 2 twin-linked S7 AP2 shots vs. 4 S5 rending attacks. In many cases they have nearly twice the firepower in assault. Particularly if you consider they can usually shoot first even if they had to jink.

[Loar]

it also sounds like if you were taking them in a RWSF you would be have your main complaint solved.  Turoboost them so you have that 'free' jink first turn and then followup turn to with full bs shooting and charge.  You should have plenty of the speed and mobility with the scout + move + turboboost that you can put them exactly where you want them to avoid too much fire and avoid getting counter-charged while getting that free +2 or +3 rerollable jink.  When this is used in conjunction with the rest of your forces or across multiple BK squads I think you will see the opponent will have to make tough shot priority decisions fast.

[Frater Cornelius]

We have lost around 10 posts. Last time around the discussion reached the conclusion that two units of 6 BK and Sammy are a solid starting point and then moved onto supporting elements. Imperial Knights and Ravenwing Support Squadron, amongst other things.

[Elios Harg]

I am unsure if you were able to read it before it was lost, so I will reiterate my last post:

 

I am planning on trying a RWSF with mainly Black Knights and flyers (if I decide to include flyers) supported by RWAS and RWSS formations. The idea would be to have the RWAS/RWSS start on the table and RWSF in reserve to come in automatically turn 2 with the black knight elements outflanking. This gets the BKs in prime position to shoot something important on turn 2, able to charge turn 3, and if they end up on the wrong side of the board, they can use the Speed of the Raven rule to get into a better position.  RWAS feels like the maximized way in which to field bike squadrons and attack bikes as they can benefit from the extra BS of the targeting speeder. I particularly like the idea of a 2MM speeder with MMABs. If the speeder manages to destroy the target, the bikes can turn their attention elsewhere. However, the idea of a HB/TML speeder staying back and using it's range to support the bikes almost anywhere is also appealing, I'll have to play around with both and see which I like more.

 

The biggest problem, for me, with this type of list is that many tournaments here on the West Coast have adopted ITC format, which means no duplicate formations/detachments (with the exception of demi-companies to form battle companies). This puts a big limit on how effective pure Ravenwing can be as the biggest strength of the army is most definitely in the RWSS formation. Obviously, it also suffers from the "bugs" in the Ravenwing Strike Force rules (i.e. no HQs other than Sam/Sable and lack of clarity for flyers if you do not reserve).

 

Once I have had a chance to get in some games with this type of list, I'll post on its effectiveness, or lack thereof. If anyone gets a chance to try something like this out, I'd appreciate any feedback. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I highly doubt the effectiveness of pure RW due to lack of scoring bodies and bad match-ups against Tau, Eldar or other stuff that has easy access to ignore cover or can strip cover. Because of that, I doubt that that limitation is going to be a problem. My ITC-styled list (and my two-faction limit list) consist out of a CAD, RWSS and Assassins. At least that is what I am going to try now.

[Elios Harg]

Against armies that can strip cover easily, it is no less survivable than a pure bike White Scars list which can be quite competitive. You are still marines and ignores cover is limited even in armies that have easy access to it. There are only so many units that can ignore cover and only so many markerlight shots to go around. If you utilize MSU, then they are frequently going to have to "waste" cover ignoring opportunities on units of 1-3 models.

 

That, to me, is the beautiful aspect of our bike squadrons; they can be a single unit of 7 models or break into 2 units of 3 and 1 unit of 1. Personally, other than the command squad, I don't think my black knights will ever be larger than 3-4 models. You can field 2 units of 3 for the same points as one unit of 6 and it forces your opponent to shoot at them each separately. Target saturation is key. Also, by doing this you can mitigate your jinking issues as it's less likely that he'll be able to force all of your units to jink at the same time.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah, I tried that against a White Scars Battle Company. That might have been the only time I conceded after T2. I was hungry and I got mowed down. I found out that playing DA like I play WS and UM is wrong. I tried it this entire time and it always resulted in me struggling. I want to try a defensive approach. No Pods. Scouts and Rhinos. Dark Shroud can defend those fairly well. Long-ranged Dakka on top of rapid advancing RWBK. I think that might yield more mileage than trying to copy SM.

[ValourousHeart]

The biggest problem, for me, with this type of list is that many tournaments here on the West Coast have adopted ITC format, which means no duplicate formations/detachments (with the exception of demi-companies to form battle companies). This puts a big limit on how effective pure Ravenwing can be as the biggest strength of the army is most definitely in the RWSS formation. Obviously, it also suffers from the "bugs" in the Ravenwing Strike Force rules (i.e. no HQs other than Sam/Sable and lack of clarity for flyers if you do not reserve).

That no duplicate formations/detachments rule should be fairly easy to get around.  I believe they are just trying to avoid spam lists.

 

They aren't saying you can't have 2 RWSS, they are saying you can't have 2 identical RWSS.  So to make them different you just change one or more of the following: the number of land speeders, the type of large speeder (DS or LSV), or the weapon upgrades (HB, MM, AC & TML).

[Master Avoghai]

Few minutes before the board was done I've posted this to reply reply to you suggestion to include an Imperial Knight

 

 

You meant something like that ?

 

Adeptus Astartes : Dark Angels : Ravenwing Chevaliers

 

Détachement : Ravenwing Strike Force

HQ

• Ravenwing Command Squad (5) (235 pts)
  • Ravenwing Apothecary
  • Ravenwing Champion
• Sableclaw (200 pts)

  Fast Attack

  • Ravenwing Black Knights (5) (205 pts)
    • Ravenwing Huntmaster : Melta Bomb
• Ravenwing Black Knights (5) (205 pts)
  • Ravenwing Huntmaster : Melta Bomb
• Ravenwing Black Knights (5) (205 pts)
  • Ravenwing Huntmaster : Melta Bomb
• Ravenwing Darkshroud (80 pts)

  Détachement : Ravenwing Support Squadron

  Fast Attack

  • Ravenwing Darkshroud (95 pts)
    • Assault Cannon
• Ravenwing Land Speeder (3) (210 pts)
  • 3 Assault Cannons

Détachement : Imperial Knights

Lord of Wars

• Knight Paladin (415 pts)

• Melta, TL Icarus autocannon

Total : 1850 points -

[Frater Cornelius]

Yes. While I always include Greenwing, that was the general idea. Build pressure with IK and roll up the weaker side with RWBK while the Green boys hold the objectives.

[Master Avoghai]

I really fail to see how objective secured can be a game cahnger as every one says.

 

Of course, if you base your army on a Lion's blade full company, you ca have something like 20 objective secured squad and THAT can be difficult to handle.

 

But apart from this particular case, I really don't see the point. Objective secured has only make the difference for me 2 times for objective grabbing, but in both case, this didn't change the final result (first game I lost 10-14 and second I won 9-12).

The main reason I see it is that tou hardly can cover all objective anyway, particularly after 4 turns of loss in both sides. Moreover, most of the objective secured units aren't tough squads. I mean if you hold an objective with your 5 man tactical squad and that I send them a squad of RWBK, who would care about objective secured? They will be obliterated and the BK will hold the objective.

Hence I think objective secured is very situationnal in v7 since now every squad can hold an objective.

[Frater Cornelius]

You will only see the value of OS once you have experienced it yourself. It has won me several games, because a Drop Pod was standing on an objective or because Scouts were hiding behind a wall or a last suicidal Marine got an objective from angry Thunderwolves. I find it very important, but YMMV. Personally, I would never run a pure bike army.

[Master Avoghai]

You will only see the value of OS once you have experienced it yourself. It has won me several games, because a Drop Pod was standing on an objective or because Scouts were hiding behind a wall or a last suicidal Marine got an objective from angry Thunderwolves. I find it very important, but YMMV. Personally, I would never run a pure bike army.

But those are very situational like I've said. The suicidal marines is more lucky than objective secured. The scouts behind the wall. If they weren't attacked and just stand on the objective then having OS or not wouldn't have changed anything...

 

It's like saying I don't play librarian because of the risk of peril of the warp. Sure this will happen but the frequency won't stand before all the advantages it would grant.