Teetengee Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Hello and welcome fellow frater, I often found the debates to be useful, so I will be continuing them unless there is some reason I should not, for reasons I am unaware of, if people are still interested in participating. However, I will not be choosing winners and I am not sure what sort of schedule I will be keeping to. -Teetengee Slaves to Darkness Greetings and welcome to another Chaos Debate! This time we will take a look at how ideas of liberty and freedom intersect with our most favorite faction: Chaos Space Marines. Worshippers of Khorne are bound to spill the blood of their enemies and take the skulls of the worthy. They are often frothing madmen with no further interest beyond their next kill. Worshippers of Tzeentch are forever scheming, forever preparing for the schemes of others. Their plans are subject to the whims of their gods and the machinations of all others. When not avoiding endless backstabbing and unfortunate mutation, they are either mindless automata or so bound up in their own plans that they have no time to spend in unrelated pursuits. Worshippers of Slaanesh are powered by their passions. Every moment needs to be more extreme than the last to overcome the eternal deadening of their overstimulated senses and their continual normalization of the extreme. Worshippers of Nurgle are equally blessed and blighted by their jovial father. They trundle along under the weight of his many gifts, unable to interact with others without forever being marked by their afflictions and their stagnation. Worshippers of Chaos Undivided are forever playing a game against themselves and the gods at the stakes of their very soul. Can they balance the gifts and boons granted by their activities on a road to daemonhood or will they succumb to spawndom as so many before. Renegades are unendingly in pursuit of new equipment, replacement gear and more geneseed. They often have no space to call their own homebase and are at odds, even if only fleetingly, frequently with others within the eye. They are scorned even by would be allies for rejecting the four just as they rejected the Emperor. They have few friends, and the options granted to the favored of the gods or other great powers are often denied to them. Meanwhile, the Followers of the Corpse God are bound to a dying husk of a bloated empire built on hypocrisy and lies. Even those that know the extent of this betrayal of founding ideals are powerless to stop it without becoming what they despise, renegades. In this debate I want you to talk about your thoughts on the following statement:"Chaos Space Marines, although they through off the shackles of Imperial rule, or no more free than their loyalist brethren." Please support your arguments with details from the fluff and with reasoned arguments. May we find some truth in this. Teetengee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 This raises an interesting point, first we should address the level of freedom experienced by an imperial space marines. Taken at a young age and brainwashed and gene conditioned into ultimate killing machines is one thing, but your actual space marine has a reasonably degree of autonomy. Of course there are rigid rituals and rites to follow, some of which are glorified training and maintenance drills any military force would perform, but most representations of them in most of the published fiction shows that each marine has a distinct personality and is represented in the models in the form of battle honours and customised iconography and heraldry. From a chaos standpoint the same is more or less true, they underwent the same training, but have similar basic requirements to function as a fighting force, they are decidedly more flexible in the tools they will use and the rituals and rites they will perform, and this is similarly reflected in both fiction and models. Since any space marine part is de facto a chaos marine part in the right context, but that few chaos parts are appropriate for imperials one could argue that at least from a modelling perspective chaos are more free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Well, this is actually a philosophical discussion which is borderline meaningless because it depends on what axiom of free will you accept; and as by definition axioms are accepted prior to logical reasoning, no logical reasoning can be applied to them. In other words, it depends entirely on what you consider "free" to mean. Is someone on extreme stimulants like PCP acting "freely" even when they act in a manner totally inconsistent with their normal personality? Is it them, or the drug? Many people would say it's the drug, and that their actions are not in fact borne of free will, but then where does it stop? All emotions are just chemicals causing changes in electric charge across selectively permeable membranes in the brain, so how do you determine what chemicals are causing your "free will" and what chemicals are constraining it? For that matter, at what point do you call the sum of electrical responses of individual cells in the brain "will" or "consciousness"? Not to mention the fact that the charges that cause reactions (known as action potentials) in your brain cells are directly determined by the positions of charged ions throughout the brain at any given time. This implies that your thoughts, emotions, and therefore "will" are entirely determined by some initial condition describing the locations of all ions in your brain plus the laws of particle motion. So what's left to be free? This all applies to the matter at hand because Chaos worshippers in general and Cult members in particular are all doing what they enjoy, and in that sense are acting in a "free" manner. Berzerkers really like violence, Plague Marines like their contagions, etc. The problem is that the influence of Chaos entities is changing what they would otherwise like or want to conform with what empowers the god in question. So in that sense, they are like drug addicts, doing what they like, but under a strong influence of an outside force. But then all human actions are done in context of our environment, so all actions are consciously or otherwise made under an outside force. In fact, it's quite possible that all of our decisions are deterministic sums of extremely complex systems and are therefore equally "not free," and the only difference between say a drug addict who appears to us to be entirely enthralled to the drug (or Chaos god, or whatever) and a totally "free" person is how visible the controlling forces are, and not how strong they actually happen to be. Ultimately what you are asking is one of the foundational questions of philosophy, and as of yet there is no definitive answer without first making assumptions that ignore the very question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 It's whether you make the choice once and are stuck with it come what may, or keep making the choice time and again because you believe it is better. Can you ever truly renounce chaos, since chaos is born of emotion? Then again were you even given the choice to become a space marine in the first place? When you chose chaos was it through free will? Or by manipulation? Or under duress? Arguably all options are true for each individual chaos marine has his own story to tell. Is it even possible for a fictional concept to be free for it is always at the whim and mercy of its writers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I think its still worth the discussion Rain, because what free means to CSM (and anyone tied to Chaos) is almost always confused and argued over, so why not hash it out? Personally I will return to this later as I need to go pick up my wife from work. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scourged Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 For the sake of my entry into the discussion, I'll offer a point of clarification that I am using: there is a difference between freedom and free will. In terms of free will, neither side holds any ground against the other. Whether Loyalist or Traitor, an Astartes possess no free will in their lives. On the left, the Imperium of Man dictates every move that they make, every action in their squad, and quite nearly every thought that they feel. Yes, this is a product of military hierarchy just as much as hypno-conditioning. A Loyalist can do nothing but serve the Emperor with undying pride and loyalty because that is all that they know, and can know. And on the right, the Traitor has no free will of their own either. This is obviously the case for those Legions and warbands who turned to Chaos against their will - so many simply traded one master for another. But even those Astartes conscious of their actions and decisions have chosen to sacrifice their free will once again, either forever living on the fringe of the galaxy as scavengers or devoting themselves to the Ruinous Powers like so many others. Free will is absent to all marines, regardless of whom they serve because they all serve. But there the similarities end. While all Astartes are devoid of any true free will, those who serve Chaos have a freedom the Loyalists do not. With Chaos, all things are possible, and all roads available to you. Sure, once you pick a road you will often end up stuck on a single path yet again... but at least you were able to choose that road for yourself. Chaos eschews the organizational doctrine of Imperial bureaucracy. It is a no-man's land. Yes, they all ultimately serve - whether it be one of the Gods, the cause of Abaddon, their former glory, for their survival, and so on. But, the freedom comes in how they serve. Even the lowliest and newest of Chaos Marine can choose how they serve their cause. Will they follow the banner of the Black Legion, or shun them for their own cause? Will they join the growing minor warband, or toss in their allegiance with Huron? Will they seek out the favor of Khorne to slaughter their prey, or cast aside any aid to further their own glory? Will they slay the warlord themselves to take his place, or bribe a rogue sorcerer to assassinate him? Powersword or lightning claw? Melta or plasma? Amputate the mutated limb, or embrace it? Remain a stalwart renegade, or answer the call of the Dark Gods? Stay in battle and fight to the bitter end, or run away to fight another day? And on, and on... The Loyalists do not have this freedom with how they serve. You will serve as a scout until you have passed the required tests, then you will join the eighth company fifth squad, and there you will stay until promoted. Once promoted, you will serve in a tactical squad. If you're a latent psyker, you will serve in the Librarius. If the Deathwatch calls, you will answer. If an Inquisitor makes demands of your chapter, you will obey. And when you fight, you will fight to the last man without retreat, because you shall know no fear. At best, only a minor element of choice is allowed, the smallest deviation from the predetermined path and fate you will follow. To serve the Imperium is to become nothing but a blunt instrument of war. But to serve Chaos? Ah, well... that is to finally become alive. If you so choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Ack, what was that that Abbadon said from Talon of Horus. I'll see if I can find it... Edit - ok here's what I was looking for. ADB's writings eloquently capture my views of it: “There’s strength and purity in what we’ve become,’ said Abaddon. ‘There’s a savage honesty in the Nine Legions’ warbands now. They follow warlords of their choosing instead of those assigned to them. They create traditions rooted in the cultures of their parent Legions, or completely defy their origins according to their own whims.” .... “A war for the future of mankind. ... The Powers exist and we can’t pretend otherwise, but nor can we allow a sacred duty to devolve into such weakness, as Horus did.” .... “A new Legion,’ ... ‘Forged as we desire, not as slaves to the Emperor’s will and cast in the image of his flawed primarchs. Bound together by loyalty and ambition, not nostalgia and desperation. Untainted by the past,’ he said at last. ‘No longer the sons of failed fathers.” .... “We fight because we have something worth fighting for, not because we strive in fevered contest for the promise of intangible glory beneath the eyes of the Gods.” .... “And after the battle? Let the Four Gods empower whomever they so choose. Let the Imperium demonise whomever among us that it wishes to curse.” Excerpt From: Aaron Dembski-Bowden. “The Talon of Horus.” Black Library, 2014-09 That isn't to say that some in the grip of Khorne, etc. haven't simply exchanged one master for another. But that isn't to say that all Renegades are slaved in the same way. Which is why I actually prefer to use the term "Renegade Warband" rather than "Chaos Warband". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 As much as I enjoy the discussion of free will Rain (trust me, my education was in Neuroscience, I get where you are coming from) I would prefer if that wasn't the focus of this debate. However, you are right, arguing about degree of freedom without agreeing on a definition will be difficult. As such, I would love if people would give a general indication of what they individually are using as a definition of freedom before arguing their points if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Freedom to me, within the context of 40K is "Can you choose to act without fear of the repercussions?" If you are Khalex the Blood Drunk, Mook of the Red Warriors of Khorne...does your Chaos Lord really care if you want to slaughter some useless menial? No. If you are Laontus, noble son of the Blood Angels...does your Captain turn a blind eye to you guzzling the blood of the innocent? I doubt it. Chaos is freedom, in the sense that they may act as they wish far more than the Loyalists. To be a loyalist is to live a life of denial. To deny the very humanity that lead to the Heresy in the first place and the emotions that drove Legion to fight Legion. Now, thats all well and good until you begin to chase the dragon. No act is without consequence in the Warp, and as you begin to give in to your desires, those desires begin to form you, until you are nothing but those desires, trapped in a feedback loop. So yes, Chaos is freedom, but all become Slaves to Darkness eventually. Except Abby, because he's the exception. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Fair enough. I guess I just get annoyed when people use ill defined terms, a pet peeve which is sometimes not warranted, especially in light discussions, so I apologize if I came off as a jerk, which is rare for me. Apologizing I mean, not coming off as a jerk. Anyhow, if by "freedom" we mean operational autonomy (ie no chain of command proscribing particular missions) then I don't really think Chaos warbands are that free relative to Loyalist Chapters, they are just more selfish. While it is true that Tactical Marine Bob of the Imperial Fists doesn't have any say in what battles he fights or why, neither does rank and file Chaos Marine Fred of the Black Legion. Most Chaos Marines still serve the will of their Lord, and they fight the battles and wars that their Lords decree, with the punishment for stepping out of line not being pretty. The Lords certainly do have the freedom to dictate their own ambitions (again putting aside the whole "Chaos as a drug" and "is free will real" thing), but then so do Chapter Masters. Remember that Astartes Chapters are not really beholden to any body within the Imperium, at least not officially. Sure they would generally do well to retain at least cordial ties with the Inquisition and Mechanicum, but then a Chaos Lord would also do well not to get on the wrong side of Abaddon, Huron, or any of the Demon Primarchs that might be hanging around their area of warp space. Now, one may argue that Loyalist Chapters undertake missions for the good of the Imperium, while Chaos warbands undertake missions for the good of themselves (or their Lord) but then Loyalist Chapters undertake those missions because the Chapter Masters, Captains, etc. want to. The vast majority of Space Marines feel an intense pride in their role as the Emperor's angels of death and that comes with a great desire to destroy the enemies of the Emperor. So they fight not because they are ordered, but because it's what they do, it gives them meaning and purpose. Generally, this also benefits other citizens of the Imperium, but it's not like those citizens ordered the Astartes to intervene, the Astartes do so of their own accord. There are of course certain Chapters that are just the arm of some larger body (Minotaurs spring to mind) but most are ardently independent. So no, I really don't think that the average Chaos warband is more autonomous than the average Loyalist Chapter, they are just more selfish, which is different. One may still make the choice to be altruistic or devoted to the aid of others, it does not make one the servant of those he aids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Ack, what was that that Abbadon said from Talon of Horus. I'll see if I can find it... Edit - ok here's what I was looking for. ADB's writings eloquently capture my views of it: “There’s strength and purity in what we’ve become,’ said Abaddon. ‘There’s a savage honesty in the Nine Legions’ warbands now. They follow warlords of their choosing instead of those assigned to them. They create traditions rooted in the cultures of their parent Legions, or completely defy their origins according to their own whims.” .... “A war for the future of mankind. ... The Powers exist and we can’t pretend otherwise, but nor can we allow a sacred duty to devolve into such weakness, as Horus did.” .... “A new Legion,’ ... ‘Forged as we desire, not as slaves to the Emperor’s will and cast in the image of his flawed primarchs. Bound together by loyalty and ambition, not nostalgia and desperation. Untainted by the past,’ he said at last. ‘No longer the sons of failed fathers.” .... “We fight because we have something worth fighting for, not because we strive in fevered contest for the promise of intangible glory beneath the eyes of the Gods.” .... “And after the battle? Let the Four Gods empower whomever they so choose. Let the Imperium demonise whomever among us that it wishes to curse.” Excerpt From: Aaron Dembski-Bowden. “The Talon of Horus.” Black Library, 2014-09 That isn't to say that some in the grip of Khorne, etc. haven't simply exchanged one master for another. But that isn't to say that all Renegades are slaved in the same way. Which is why I actually prefer to use the term "Renegade Warband" rather than "Chaos Warband". What is described in Talon of Horus, is an eye opener i think on many points about the Renegades Legions and what it means to be a Renegade Marines. Also the fact that, even though you are free of your own actions and decisions, you still need a goal, some kind of higher objective to give a sense to your existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Yes, Talon very much was existentialism coming to 40K (31K?) to me. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Yeah but keep in mind that this was Abaddon speaking to inspire a potential follower. It's not a third person omniscient description like in a codex, it's overt in-universe propaganda to try to turn other disgruntled Legionnaires to Abaddon's cause. Sure it's charismatic and convincing (especially to Chaos sympathizers) but that's because Abaddon is a charismatic character who is being written well as a charismatic character. So much so that even we as readers tend to take his reasoning as "true." While that's a testament to good writing, it really doesn't give us much information as to how free Chaos Marines really are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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