RW support squad load out to deal with Tig+Grav cents in DP?

[Belfast]

In my local meta, tigurius with 3 dev cents in a drop pod is a pretty popular choice as allies. With Tig having a 75% chance to roll invisibility with all of his rerolls, once he gets that off they are nigh unkillable.

 

The best way I can think of dealing with this (outside of allies) is with the Ravenwing support squad since they have interceptor. The question is, what is the best load out to deal with that specific threat while still performing their battle field role?

 

Here are my ideas:

 

3x land speeder - 3x AC, 3x HB - 210

Darkshroud - AC - 95

305 pts - 18 shots on overwatch but with pretty poor chance to wound due to armor saves and high ap. need a lot of rends. 24" range on ACs could be an issue. Cheapest effective option

 

3x land speeders - 6xMM - 225

RW LSV - AC - 135

360pts - great AP but low volume of fire. 24" range of MMs could be an issue. MM can instant kill Tig. No darkshroud

 

3x LS - 3x HB, 3x TML - 225

LSV - HB - 120

345pts - outranges the Grav cents so you will be in range to intercept more often than not. Better rate of fire than 4xmm. Can still instant kill Tig. No dark shroud.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edit: mixed up how many land speeders must be in the formation

[Teetengee]

Vehicles can't fire overwatch.

[notmattlythgoe]

Vehicles can't fire overwatch.

 

Exception being the RWSS.

 

The RWSS requires 3 Landspeeders, so you need another LS in each of those groups.

[Elios Harg]

If you are building it for the interceptor, then the vengeance is superior since it has a turret (and thus can intercept in a 36" bubble instead of just firing arcs). Also, it is much more likely to significantly damage the squad assuming you hit. One important thing you overlooked is that you MUST field 3 landspeeders in the squadron before adding the big speeder. 

 

HB/AC are statistically the superior loadout in just about every situation. However, as an intercepting unit, I think TML is superior because it deals well with a variety of unit types and has the superior range. 

 

If I were building the unit, I would probably go with 3-5 HB/AC speeders and an AC vengeance. This gives a solid mix of S5-7 weaponry with lots of shots 9-15 HB, 16-24 AC, plus the plasma storm. It will be great against light to heavy infantry and solid against light vehicles. My alternative loadout would be 3-5 MM/TML speeders with an AC vengeance. Although HB/TML is more price efficient than MM/TML, in most situations, I think that the combination of S6-8 weaponry has a good deal more synergy than having heavy bolters in the mix, the decent volume of shots and everything is AP2-3 or rending. It should be pretty great against heavy infantry, decent against light infantry (by using frag missiles) and great against all but the heaviest armor, though still decent against AV14.

[Belfast]

Vehicles can't fire overwatch.

That's the whole point of the Ravenwing support squad formation...They all get interceptor, grim resolve (BS 2 overwatch), fire overwatch when friendly RW models get charged AND they also get strafing run which makes the overwatch BS3 when shooting at non flyers and skimmers.

 

If you are building it for the interceptor, then the vengeance is superior since it has a turret (and thus can intercept in a 36" bubble instead of just firing arcs). Also, it is much more likely to significantly damage the squad assuming you hit. One important thing you overlooked is that you MUST field 3 landspeeders in the squadron before adding the big speeder.

 

HB/AC are statistically the superior loadout in just about every situation. However, as an intercepting unit, I think TML is superior because it deals well with a variety of unit types and has the superior range.

 

If I were building the unit, I would probably go with 3-5 HB/AC speeders and an AC vengeance. This gives a solid mix of S5-7 weaponry with lots of shots 9-15 HB, 16-24 AC, plus the plasma storm. It will be great against light to heavy infantry and solid against light vehicles. My alternative loadout would be 3-5 MM/TML speeders with an AC vengeance. Although HB/TML is more price efficient than MM/TML, in most situations, I think that the combination of S6-8 weaponry has a good deal more synergy than having heavy bolters in the mix, the decent volume of shots and everything is AP2-3 or rending. It should be pretty great against heavy infantry, decent against light infantry (by using frag missiles) and great against all but the heaviest armor, though still decent against AV14.

Good catch on the three models. Was mixing it up with the SM LS whirlwind formation. Also, you make a very valid point about the turret. Will have to give that some thought

[Teetengee]

Not having the codex, I stand corrected. I apologize for my less than helpful contribution.

I would definitely go for low ap over high rate of fire for killing the cents and tiggy.

[Elios Harg]

 

Vehicles can't fire overwatch.

That's the whole point of the Ravenwing support squad formation...They all get interceptor, grim resolve (BS 2 overwatch), fire overwatch when friendly RW models get charged AND they also get strafing run which makes the overwatch BS3 when shooting at non flyers and skimmers.

 

 

I am fairly certain that strafing run doesn't help Overwatch when using Grim Resolve as set modifiers are applied last. So, you start out as BS4, apply +1 for shooting at a "ground" unit and then get set to BS2 by Grim Resolve. It may, however, apply when part of a Lion's Blade as you fire overwatch at your "normal BS" though even this is arguable as strafing run is not part of your "normal BS characteristic." In really thinking about it, I don't think strafing run helps even when using Supreme Fire Discipline for Overwatch.

[Belfast]

 

 

Vehicles can't fire overwatch.

 

That's the whole point of the Ravenwing support squad formation...They all get interceptor, grim resolve (BS 2 overwatch), fire overwatch when friendly RW models get charged AND they also get strafing run which makes the overwatch BS3 when shooting at non flyers and skimmers.

I am fairly certain that strafing run doesn't help Overwatch when using Grim Resolve as set modifiers are applied last. So, you start out as BS4, apply +1 for shooting at a "ground" unit and then get set to BS2 by Grim Resolve. It may, however, apply when part of a Lion's Blade as you fire overwatch at your "normal BS" though even this is arguable as strafing run is not part of your "normal BS characteristic." In really thinking about it, I don't think strafing run helps even when using Supreme Fire Discipline for Overwatch.

Hmm, good thought. Will have to dig into the rule book about that

[seethe]

As i understand it, in a Lion's Blade you would be over watching at BS4 or 5 depending on the target. For that particular job I would go assault cannons and heavy bolters with a vengeance. You are going you have to get lucky for him to drop down in range. Maybe more than 1 support squad?

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

Vehicles can't fire overwatch.

That's the whole point of the Ravenwing support squad formation...They all get interceptor, grim resolve (BS 2 overwatch), fire overwatch when friendly RW models get charged AND they also get strafing run which makes the overwatch BS3 when shooting at non flyers and skimmers.

 

 

I am fairly certain that strafing run doesn't help Overwatch when using Grim Resolve as set modifiers are applied last. So, you start out as BS4, apply +1 for shooting at a "ground" unit and then get set to BS2 by Grim Resolve. It may, however, apply when part of a Lion's Blade as you fire overwatch at your "normal BS" though even this is arguable as strafing run is not part of your "normal BS characteristic." In really thinking about it, I don't think strafing run helps even when using Supreme Fire Discipline for Overwatch.

 

That is probably a good question for the FAQ.

 

We don't know how strafing run interacts with overwatch, given that there are so few vehicles (strafing run is vehicles only) with the ability to overwatch.  However we do know how strafing run works with snap shots.

 

BS4 > forced to snap shot > more accurate weapons in limited situations.

 

Not all set values are applied last, otherwise Tau marker lights would not be able to adjust snap firing.

[SnakeChisler]

It says bs 2 then in the lions blade normal bs

 

Strafing run is a Buff during the shooting phase as far as I've been able to work out because all overwatch shots are snap shots.

 

Interceptor is a completely different kettle of fish as it's an out of sequence normal shooting attack.

 

Anyway to get back to Tigarius in a drop pod with invisible cents if your opponent pours all his dice into invisibility then he'll not have much left for other stuff. You can only get 3 in there. Best interceptor / overwatch gun is probably assault cannon as it doubles as anti air.

 

They will get 1 round of shooting then charge him with stuff and tie them up in combat, they can't overwatch and your opponent will burn psychic dice keeping them invisible.

[shabbadoo]

 

 

 

Vehicles can't fire overwatch.

That's the whole point of the Ravenwing support squad formation...They all get interceptor, grim resolve (BS 2 overwatch), fire overwatch when friendly RW models get charged AND they also get strafing run which makes the overwatch BS3 when shooting at non flyers and skimmers.

 

 

I am fairly certain that strafing run doesn't help Overwatch when using Grim Resolve as set modifiers are applied last. So, you start out as BS4, apply +1 for shooting at a "ground" unit and then get set to BS2 by Grim Resolve. It may, however, apply when part of a Lion's Blade as you fire overwatch at your "normal BS" though even this is arguable as strafing run is not part of your "normal BS characteristic." In really thinking about it, I don't think strafing run helps even when using Supreme Fire Discipline for Overwatch.

 

That is probably a good question for the FAQ.

 

We don't know how strafing run interacts with overwatch, given that there are so few vehicles (strafing run is vehicles only) with the ability to overwatch.  However we do know how strafing run works with snap shots.

 

BS4 > forced to snap shot > more accurate weapons in limited situations.

 

Not all set values are applied last, otherwise Tau marker lights would not be able to adjust snap firing.

 

Not required.

The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can onlybe modified by special rules that specifically state thatthey affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may only modify Ballistic Skill when firingOverwatch Snap Shots, for example). If a special rule doesn't specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at Ballistic Skill 1.

---Core Rules, p. 33

As Strafing Run doesn't spefically state that it affects Snap Shots of any kind, it does not.  Grim Resolve is still in effect for Overwatch though (but not for other types of Snap Shots).

 

Also, I recall somebody stating on another thread that vehicles with the Interceptor rule may only fire one weapon when using that rule.  This is not true.  If one weapon on a model has the Interceptor rule *in its weapon profile*, but other weapons on the mdoel do not, then obviously only that weapon may fire using the Interceptor rule.  However, if a model itself has the Interceptor rule then ALL of its weapons have the rule, not just one of them. And so typhoon-melta speeders in a RW Support Squadron are really nasty when using Interceptor.  Also, we don't have to shoot all or none of the weapons using Interceptor. We can fire just one of them using Intercerptor and so be able to fire the other weapon in the next shooting phase, though we can still choose to shoot all of the weapons using Intercerptor and fire none the next shooting phase, or any combination of the two among the entire Squadron.  Those are some potentially very useful options.

[Interrogator Stobz]

^^^ Clarity :D

 

And for the avoidance of doubt; as Interceptor kicks in before the Psychic phase, Tiger in a pod cannot get Invisibility off to force snap shots. BS5! S7 AP2 pie plates and Krak missiles and Melta shots will carve them a new one. Worth every penny in this Alpha strike era.

We will need to learn how to use them even better by playing them against various opponents and conditions ;) nothing is perfect.

 

bs

[SnakeChisler]

That was me saying 1 weapon.

 

I've been over the rule book and its for the infantry models, it just says Vehicles can't normally shoot overwatch, the Tau Tank one has a restriction on Strength of gun you can fire. The infantry thing is I guess so you don't fire your bolter bolt pistol and combi all at the same time :)

 

Went through the whole overwatch thing with a fine tooth comb GW don't make it easy with references all over the shop

 

Overwatch restrictions

        Infantry 1 Gun

        MC's 2 Guns

        Vehicles - Restrictions as per the vehicle (movement, special rules arc of fire etc.. ) 

       Overall restriction - no templates or blast markers

[DA_WarM]

That was me saying 1 weapon.

I've been over the rule book and its for the infantry models, it just says Vehicles can't normally shoot overwatch, the Tau Tank one has a restriction on Strength of gun you can fire. The infantry thing is I guess so you don't fire your bolter bolt pistol and combi all at the same time

Went through the whole overwatch thing with a fine tooth comb GW don't make it easy with references all over the shop

Overwatch restrictions

Infantry 1 Gun

MC's 2 Guns

Vehicles - Restrictions as per the vehicle (movement, special rules arc of fire etc.. )

Overall restriction - no templates or blast markers

Does this mean that the LSV won't be able to fire overwatch? It would make sense because blasts cannot be fired as snap shots....

[SnakeChisler]

Yes this is true LSV no matter what its BS can't use its blast in Overwatch

 

Ravenshield also states you don't get "Wall of Death" unless within 6" and vehicle rules say you measure from the weapon, infantry models always measure from the base

[Chaplain Lucifer]

But the LSV still has the 3 shot mode right? so he can use that, despite not being as good as the blast.

[seethe]

Yeah the vengeance can use the 3shot mode for overwatch.

[Isual]

A little out of the box thinking.

Put a Culexus in a drop pod, shock him next to the Cents and introduce the now visible Unit to some plasmaclaws or something simmilar. ;)

[ValourousHeart]

Quick couple of questions about Overwatch, Ravenshield and Interceptor and how they interact with each other.

 

Overwatch requires that the unit have LOS in order to be able to shoot overwatch.

But LOS and Fire Arc do not appear to be the same thing.

 

A Walker, as far as I can tell, is the only vehicle in the BRB that is able to fire overwatch.

And a Walker is able to fire overwatch even if the charging unit is not within its fire arc.

That tells me that a Walker can see things behind it, and shoot overwatch that direction, even though it can't shoot that direction during the shooting phase.

 

Ravenshield only requires the friendly unit be within 24 inches of the RWSS and have the RW special rule.

Does this mean that Ravenshield is really only available if the charge is happening to the front of the RWSS or can they bring their weapons around like the Walker can?

 

If they can't bring their weapons around, which unit needs to be in front of the RWSS?

Is it the squad being charged, and the shots happen when the charging unit gets in range / LOS?

Or is it the charging squad, and the location of the unit being charged is unimportant other than within 24 inches of the RWSS?

 

Also how does Interceptor and Ravenshield interact if both are used in the same enemy turn?

 

Interceptor does not allow you to use the same weapon next turn, but does not say anything about later this turn.

So can a LSV fire the blast template as Interceptor vs a target coming out of reserves and also fire the 3 shot version with Ravenshield against a charging unit, and then on my turn not fire that gun at all?

[Elios Harg]

Quick couple of questions about Overwatch, Ravenshield and Interceptor and how they interact with each other.

 

Overwatch requires that the unit have LOS in order to be able to shoot overwatch.

But LOS and Fire Arc do not appear to be the same thing.

 

A Walker, as far as I can tell, is the only vehicle in the BRB that is able to fire overwatch.

And a Walker is able to fire overwatch even if the charging unit is not within its fire arc.

That tells me that a Walker can see things behind it, and shoot overwatch that direction, even though it can't shoot that direction during the shooting phase.

 

Ravenshield only requires the friendly unit be within 24 inches of the RWSS and have the RW special rule.

Does this mean that Ravenshield is really only available if the charge is happening to the front of the RWSS or can they bring their weapons around like the Walker can?

 

If they can't bring their weapons around, which unit needs to be in front of the RWSS?

Is it the squad being charged, and the shots happen when the charging unit gets in range / LOS?

Or is it the charging squad, and the location of the unit being charged is unimportant other than within 24 inches of the RWSS?

 

Also how does Interceptor and Ravenshield interact if both are used in the same enemy turn?

 

Interceptor does not allow you to use the same weapon next turn, but does not say anything about later this turn.

So can a LSV fire the blast template as Interceptor vs a target coming out of reserves and also fire the 3 shot version with Ravenshield against a charging unit, and then on my turn not fire that gun at all?

They cannot "bring their weapons around" like a walker as that's not actually what the walker rules state, they are merely given permission to ignore fire arc when firing Overwatch unless immobilized. Ravenshield does not give this permission to the formation, merely the ability to fire overwatch under the allowed conditions. So, yes, they are prohibited by their normal firing arcs. 

 

Interceptor specifically states the weapon(s) used "may not be fired in the next turn." This means there is zero effect on Overwatch as that happens in *this* turn. Interceptor is basically giving you permission to fire your next "shooting phase" now instead of then with whatever weapons have the rule.  

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yup, there is really no major downside to Interceptor, assuming the baddies land in your firing arc. That is something you have limited control over, but good placement of RWSS to support other units can neuter the effect of the baddies arrival if not by shooting then by fear.

[Elios Harg]

Yep, if you keep your RWSS "behind" your other stuff and protecting deep strike zones, then you can alter your opponent's game plan.  If they land in front of the squadron to hit their primary target, then they face the full wrath of the intercept. If they are tempted to land behind the RWSS then the plasma storm still gets to fire before their defenses are up.  The best part of intercepting is that if they decide to shoot at your RWSS, you just jink (even if it wouldn't help) because you couldn't have shot next turn anyway.

 

If you have the points to field multiple RWSSs (and no restrictions on fielding multiples of the same formation) then you can overlap fields of fire and really protect the rest of your army. In that case, I'd recommend doing one Dark Shroud and one LSV, you don't really need two plasma storms and the Dark Shroud is typically way better. You could even run them side-by-side which would give the LSV unit stealth, now they have a 2+ re-roll or a 3+ re-roll to shoot at, sucks to be them.

[shabbadoo]

Yes, you really want the RW SS fulfilling a literal back-up roll, with a line of bikes out front and the RW SS behind (but within 24" of as many untis as possible). This also allows for those RW SS with a Darkshroud to give the units close by and in front of it Stealth. Also, those lines of bikes will often provide cover to your speeders, so even without Jinking the speeders will have a 5+ cover save that is likely modified by Stealth from a Darkshroud (Stealth and Shrouded if it is the Darkshroud + speeders RW SS configuration). Along with using terrain as the base for any cover saves, this is a good way to protect withough having to Jink, making more of your firepower available for use.

That was me saying 1 weapon.

I've been over the rule book and its for the infantry models, it just says Vehicles can't normally shoot overwatch, the Tau Tank one has a restriction on Strength of gun you can fire. The infantry thing is I guess so you don't fire your bolter bolt pistol and combi all at the same time

Went through the whole overwatch thing with a fine tooth comb GW don't make it easy with references all over the shop

Overwatch restrictions

Infantry 1 Gun

MC's 2 Guns

Vehicles - Restrictions as per the vehicle (movement, special rules arc of fire etc.. )

Overall restriction - no templates or blast markers

I am not talking about Overwatch though, but Intercerptor (and note that Walkers, though they are vehicles, can fire Overwatch). Though Overwatch fire is not Interceptor fire, you have the right of it in your list (except that you *can* fire template weapons during Overwatch and for Interceptor, just not at a Flier). The only limitation on how many weapons can be fired using Interceptor (or Overwatch for that matter) is how many weapons the unit/unit members would normally be able to fire. As there is no movement going on for purposes of Interceptor (because it happens during the opponent's turn), the number of weapons able to be fired will always be the maximum, though you can still choose to fire some, all, or none of them, as you wish, allowing those unfired weapons to be fired in your next turn at whatever targets you wish. Of course to do that, the unit's weapons must either all have the Interceptor rule *in their weapon profile*, or the unit itself must have the Interceptor rule, in which case *all* of the unit's weapons (other than those which are inelligible to fire at the target) gain the Interceptor rule. They handled this (and other) special rules in a very clever way, allowing them to assign these rules individually to specific things, or to the entirety of a unit. Very nice.

*NOTE: Interceptor fire is NOT made using Snap Shots, but at normal BS value. The only time a unit with Intercrptor will be firing Snap Shots at anything is if it doesn't have the Skyfire rule and is targeting a Flier (or some sort of weird unit with a rule saying it can only be targeted with Snap Shots, and which has just arrived from Reserves).

As to taking down Tigurius and the the Centurians, 3 Typhoon melta speeds plus a LS Vengance would be best. Remember that the RW SS has Strafing Run, and Tiger & Friends are Infantry, so that's Interceptor at BS 5 with 3 multi-meltas, 3 plasma shots, and 6 krak missiles, which ought to rain pretty heavily on their parade.

[Elios Harg]

Interceptor does not require snap fire, so of you are shooting at a non-flying unit, you are free to intercept with blast weapons. Unless you were forced to junk in the prior turn, of course.