HH5 Imperialis Militia Grenadier Oddness

[Brother Handro]

I recently began toying with the idea of converting my Guard army into the Militia list from Tempest, specifically aiming at using the Survivors of the Dark Age provenance and its optional add-on Advanced Weapons, as I have a couple of retro Rhinos hanging about which suit the scale of Guard better, plus I have a Land Raider built as Guard-issue.

Pertinent Info:

Survivors of the Dark Age - Compulsory troops slots must be filled by Grenadiers

Advanced Weapons - Grenadier squads may take Rhino or Land Raider Proteus as Dedicated transports as long as unit numbers 10 or less.

Grenadier Squad - 9 Grenadiers, 1 Grenadier Sergeant, may take up to 8 additional Grenadiers, and 2 Special Weapons Grenadiers.

Now the point;

Assuming this list was designed for Guard players of all stripes to get in on the HH fun, (a point reinforced by the intentional lack of model lines for the list), most players won't be taking 20-man Grenadier squads.

Essentially it is pointless if not impossible to run this provenance and option if you want to take special weapons. The minimum squad size would be 12, (not coincidentally the exact capacity of the Arvus lighter option), meaning no Rhinos, no Land Raiders and no Gorgon, which requires a unit size of exactly(!?) 20.

It is impossible to run your compulsory Grenadier squads in Rhinos (or Raiders) unless they are exactly 10 models, and no special weapons, surely negating the point of them being Grenadiers (AKA Veteran squads of all the Guard players converting to 30k), and negating the point of taking the 'Rhinos allowed' option.

That being the case, does this not seem odd to other people? An oversight? It is probably deliberate, but I emailed FW who replied along the lines of 'we can only offer our interpretation of rules, not issue official rulings, but we have passed your email to the writers and designers' who may take it into account when issuing an FAQ.

Just wondering about others thoughts on this. Is it just an oversight, an odd combination? For me, it makes no sense - if it were two different provenances combining to make something weird, fine, but this is one provenance and its add-on, i.e. meant to be together, 'take Grenadiers as troops and you can have Rhinos for them to ride in', but if you do, then the price you pay is all your existing squads are invalid, and you can't take the purpose of the unit, despite this list surely being designed for Guard players...

Am I missing something? Have I mis-read something? Not upset here, but intrigued...

[Hesh Kadesh]

I can see the annoyance of this, but a; The Arvus Lighter needs some love (and personally, needs something along the lines of a Gladius Strike Force to make the only way it can be playable "competitively" - i say loosely - is to make it free), and b; Laslocks with Strength 5 are pretty awesome; 135pts to offload 10 BS5 S5 Shots in a drive by shooting is pretty cool, especially when the Rhino in this edition can mount a Heavy Weapon like a Havoc Launcher or Heavy Flamer, turning it into Pseudo Razorback if you need the additional firepower. 

 

Sure, it's not a Drive by Flaming or Melta like you're used to in ye olde 5th Edition Leafblower metabreaking list, which had something like 3 Flamers, 2 Heavy Flamers and Multilaser, plus Shotgun if necessary.

 

But at the same point (without turning this personal, this is a general rhetorical question), if you want to play that way, why aren't you playing that way; it's like criticising a White Scars army for playing differently to Dark Angels. Or more accurately, legions from chapters. I understand the point you're getting at, but you can still take Auxilia Platoon Command, Enginseer Servitors, Foot-grenadiers, Fire Support Teams (count as melta/flamers for Heavy Weapons), etc.

[Marshal Rohr]

The option for rhinos is a fluff option.

[heron]

The option for rhinos is a fluff option.

Yes... It's back to the rogue trader days. I think that 10 grenadiers with 3+ armor save and str 5 las locks would be just fine jumping out of a rhino.

 

And the arvus lighter in 30k is actually a whole new unit. BS3 is great with twin linked guns, and their armor is better than the 40k version.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Still stupid expensive though.

[apologist]

I read the minimum squad size as 9 Grenadiers and 1 Grenadier sergeant. There is then the option of adding up to eight more Grenadiers and up to two special weapon Grenadiers.

 

In essense, the minimum squad size is 10.

 

+Edit+ To clarify, you can take Grenadiers in Rhinos (just as the Emperor intended!), but they can't then have special weapons. If you want the special weapons, you're stuck walking.

[Brother Handro]

I hope I didn't come across as power-gamey, or even wanting to have my cake and eat it, nothing could be further from the truth.

I play against one guy in a narrative campaign, and have this issue precisely because I want to do things properly and not house-rule things.

I want to run Grenadiers in Rhinos and Land Raiders for the same reason as anyone else; awesome retro throwback!

However, does the fact that FW have granted us this great boon outweigh the fact that it is essentially useless unless you take bare, minimum-sized squads? Not in my opinion.

And as an aside, are marines penalised in the same way when taking weapon options? Of course not. A Veteran tactical squad's ability to take 2 special or heavy weapons has zero impact on which transport option you want to take, so why here?

Plus, with me cynical hat on, I'm guessing the Arvus isn't exactly the best-selling model in the FW range...

You might say that being able to take the Arvus (and Gorgon) as DTs is part of what separates the list from 40k Guard, but so does the Rhinos and LRs, it doesn't mean you have to make them essentially untakeable (in the context of taking both SoTDA and Advanced Weapons). Do they think the average FW buyer/list user is on the look out for broken Vets in Rhinos spam so they had to cut the option out?

It seems I will just have to build new units instead of taking Vet squads. It's a shame though that it's easier just to stick to the 40k codex and prove the superiority of the Chimera to the Rhino. C'est la vie.

[Hesh Kadesh]

If you want to play Imperial Guard, the door is that a-way. 

[apologist]

I hope I didn't come across as power-gamey, or even wanting to have my cake and eat it, nothing could be further from the truth.

I play against one guy in a narrative campaign, and have this issue precisely because I want to do things properly and not house-rule things.

I want to run Grenadiers in Rhinos and Land Raiders for the same reason as anyone else; awesome retro throwback!

I certainly didn't read your post as power-gamey. If I'm reading it correctly, the problem seems to lie in the fact that you can't take ten-man squads with special weapons and are unwilling to apply a house-rule. If that's correct, the Imperial Militia may not be the right army for you.

Of course, that's a rather bald statement. My suggestion would be for you to either consider exploring house rules, or try and understand the background reasons why Imperial Militiamen might not have access to such weaponry.

However, does the fact that FW have granted us this great boon outweigh the fact that it is essentially useless unless you take bare, minimum-sized squads? Not in my opinion. And as an aside, are marines penalised in the same way when taking weapon options? Of course not. A Veteran tactical squad's ability to take 2 special or heavy weapons has zero impact on which transport option you want to take, so why here?

While I have no insight into Forge World's design choices, the decision to restrict the Imperial Militia from having mobile special weapons is probably for a number of reasons:

1 – Differentiation: The Age of Darkness expansion intentionally wants to distance itself from regular 40k. Part of that is placing different options and restrictions on army list entries.

2 – Consistency: Specialist weapons are restricted to dedicated squads in the Legion list. There are exceptions (such as Legion Veterans), but the broad design choice has been to make specialist weapons rarer. The Imperial Militia seems to follow the same principles as the Astartes, mainly for background reasons, but also for game-balance.

3 – Complexity: The Forge World designers clearly realise what they're doing; but the Imperial Militia list balances being a catch-all for retro-gamers, competitive gamers and all in between.

You might say that being able to take the Arvus (and Gorgon) as DTs is part of what separates the list from 40k Guard, but so does the Rhinos and LRs, it doesn't mean you have to make them essentially untakeable (in the context of taking both SoTDA and Advanced Weapons). Do they think the average FW buyer/list user is on the look out for broken Vets in Rhinos spam so they had to cut the option out?

I don't think that at all. I'd definitely call 'essentially untakeable' hyperbole, though! Remember that the Advanced Weapons rules significantly improves their basic weapons. In a way, they've all got special weapons. Of course, not the equal of 'proper' weapons like flamers and so forth, but if you want those, perhaps you'd be better served with a Legiones Astartes army.

Perhaps the simple answer is that a deliberate design decision was made that the Imperial Militia, no matter how well-equipped and trained, should not be the equal of Astartes. Allowing the outlying option of specialist weapons in large squads allows people to use older models that they may already have, but they are otherwise restricted to their (already very good) improved weapons.

On a final note, I'd suggest that you step back and take things in the context of the 30k universe. At that macro-level, it might make more sense that any army list needs restrictions to give some shape. If you're sticking with the 'hard rules' and are unwilling to discuss house-ruling or scenario forces, then you'll have to accept the letter of the rules. Personally, I'd encourage you to at least broach the subject with your regular gaming group – by the sounds of things, you'll be playing one friend regularly. That sounds like the perfect chance to work out how you can play the army you really want to play.

[Der_H]

Hail! I am that friend! And I leap from the shadows with thoughts! I am not dead, merely buried under Anaesthetic text books!!

 

It's a tricky one and interesting wording.

 

Fluff wise I love the idea of the grenadiers in rhinos. Great throw back.

 

I myself get frustrated with making fluffy units fit with my rules. For my part, I want to get my emperors children mobile with 10 man tactical squads in rhinos. But as part of the fluff for the IIIrd I want apothecaries - no ten man squad with apoc in a rhino for me :-( similar issues with drop pods.

 

I'd be happy to try playtesting it. When I first skimmed it I read it as min 10 max 20, upto two special weapons, similar to the vet tac 1 in 5 may have X. But this wording is difficult.

 

Ah the joys of rules interpretation. Similarly the command squad taking phoenix power spears - if we house rule/test that lets try the grenadiers!

[heron]

I think apologist is right on with the response- the overall design of 30k is based on consistent organization shifts from 40k, and thats part of its structure ( and its appeal, in my mind)... There are only a small handful of units that can mix special and standard weapons, and they are generally only astartes vets, with some army specific exceptions.

 

I would recommend just taking the plunge and buying an arvus lighter.. I love mine, and it's an easy conversion to add in sentinel weapons to model its armaments...

[Feyralwolf]

I've been reading over the stuff for the Imperialis Militia and I find myself confused as well.  They greatly resemble the Imperial Guard (though often more expensive to field which is just ODD seeing as they are generally inferior), but as far as I can tell they have no Force Organization Chart that we need to fill (or are we to use the one from the Imperial Guard), and further, do they use the Orders system the Imperial Guard does?

 

I find that I really like the idea of them, and would happily sub them in for the Imperial Guard units that I was originally planning on fielding as an allied force, but I want to understand how to use them.

[Demus Ragnok]

They use the Age of Darkness FOC.

 

They do not use gaurd orders. They use provinances for army wide buffs.

[Feyralwolf]

Thanks for the help Ragnok, that was my read as well.  It still looks like they cost the same for less generally (lower leadership values), but with those provinances and upgrade options, the Militia could be far more dangerous than the Guard by the look of things.