Morticon Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 We have a built in 425 minimum Auxiliary tax Not sure where you're getting the from...? 1x Command 1x Dread 1x Furioso Dread 1x DC thats what we have to take with out Battle Company - No options. No 0-1. So, off the bat, our minimum is 425 over and above the 910 barebones minimum for our Double Demi meaning a total min of 1335. DA min is 935, SM min is 1045. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Guys, please keep this constructive. Will remove unrelated/unproductive posts. Jolemai is constantly offering advice on how to work with what we have, so lets not shut that down entirely - It's one thing to acknowledge the faults and flaws of our dex and subsequently move forward, its another to dwell on this and let it just keep getting us worked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamahl129 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 The Bloodied Demi-Company weighs in at 555 points base and grants us The Red Thirst (as well as BA Warlord Trait re-rolls). The BA Battle Company weighs in at 1335 points base and grants us Objective Secured and The Red Thirst (as well as BA Warlord Trait re-rolls). How exactly are these deemed useless? As a concept Formation prior to the C:SM and C:DA ones, it's not far behind at all. We lack the bonus of free transports so maybe it only needs that and perhaps something to be "upgraded" when fielding a "double demi" such as gaining Rage across the board? I would replace "free transport" with the ability to assault from drop pods and deep striking. They could take away our shooting phase to balance it out if that alone is too overpowered. But honestly, anything beneficical to assault would be lovely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Anyway, I was considering the Red Thirst something that didn't count towards that, furious charge is not nearly as good as most chapter tactics, only works if you get the charge, and does almost nothing to buff the majority of the units in a demi-company. Tac and Dev squads don't really care about being slightly less terrible on the charge. You'll also note that most other chapters have 2 special rules relating to their tactics. Such as white scars skilled rider and hit and run. Our thing our are fantastic unique units, which don't really matter at all in a double demi-company format. Good point there. FC and Init+1 are hardly game breaking as standard marine rules. Id say "rage" would be well suited - even that with the above is hardly that impressive - but at least it shifts us towards the combat style with codex astartes backing like we're supposed to be. Alternatively....all tactical and devastator marines in a double-demi may also be equipped with an additional close combat knife for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Anyway, I was considering the Red Thirst something that didn't count towards that, furious charge is not nearly as good as most chapter tactics, only works if you get the charge, and does almost nothing to buff the majority of the units in a demi-company. Tac and Dev squads don't really care about being slightly less terrible on the charge. Furious Charge mirrors Grim Resolve, which only works when Dark Angels are charged. Dark Angel Assault Squads want to stand around waiting to receive a charge much less than Blood Angel Tactical Squads want to charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadDice0809 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Grim Resolve also includes the Stubborn modifier that is always in effect. The Deathwing special rules up it to Fearless (not bad) and Hatred CSM (fluffy). Ravenwing get... H&R, Scout, reroll jink... BA get a rule that only effects us the first round IF we charge. If they were to add onto our minimum Chapter Tactics, I want something that helps us charge or no charge, since (and rightfully so) being the Close Combat Marines is supposed to be our thing. A + 1 WS or + 1 Initiative, first round (like Zealot- you don't need the charge) would make me happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadDice0809 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 And to add what Morticon was saying. ... as soon as they release HH Blood Angels I look forward to making a huge 20 man blob of additional hand weapon tacticals... Fury of the Legion then getting choppy next turn? That sounds awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamahl129 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 The Bloodied Demi-Company weighs in at 555 points base and grants us The Red Thirst (as well as BA Warlord Trait re-rolls). The BA Battle Company weighs in at 1335 points base and grants us Objective Secured and The Red Thirst (as well as BA Warlord Trait re-rolls). How exactly are these deemed useless? As a concept Formation prior to the C:SM and C:DA ones, it's not far behind at all. We lack the bonus of free transports so maybe it only needs that and perhaps something to be "upgraded" when fielding a "double demi" such as gaining Rage across the board? I would replace "free transport" with the ability to assault from drop pods and deep striking. They could take away our shooting phase to balance it out if that alone is too overpowered. But honestly, anything beneficical to assault would be lovely. Actually, I think it would be fantastic if all blood angels were given relentless as an additional battle company trait. It ties into assault wonderfully plus it can help protect our non-tradtional assaulter by giving them an assault option! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evildrcheese Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 How about +1S in combat and FC. Making us S5 all the time and S6 on the charge? I'd like to see some kind of charge modifier, like we have 6" +D6 charge range. Extra CCW all around would be nice to. I want DC Relentless to actually be useful... D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverson Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I think "hit and run" universal special rule would be a good rule for all units in the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fahlnor Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Why not add a Black Rage rule? We already have access to +1WS, +1S and +1I on the charge (as in, our basic Assault Marines can go into combat with WS5, S5, I5 - that's pretty awesome!). I'd love to see a rule representing models falling to the Red Thirst/Black Rage. Maybe at the start of each turn, roll a dice for each unit on the table. On a 6, that unit gets Rage/Relentless/Feel No Pain/whatever else makes the Death Company so special. It may slow the game down a little, but it would be nice to see the army slowly fall to fury. If you had ten units on the table in any given turn, there would be about an 85% chance that at least one would fall to the curse. Or you could speed it up and just roll one dice at the start of each turn - on the roll of a 6, you can choose to grant any one unit the Rage/Relentless/Feel No Pain special rules, but at the end of the battle that unit counts as slain. Keep a note of which units have fallen to the Rage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 I always felt the rolling thing was a bit clunky, but the idea of giving everybody a second ccw is pretty awesome, I would take that. Would make tacs actually able to use FC and Red Thirst bonuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 A return to the old black rage rule would be cool. Something like on a fail get to either move, or charge additional d6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrunTeufel Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 We don't need more random. The best thing about the other books is the reliability of the bonuses they get. I don't want the possibility of a bonus. I want to know that i am going to get it no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadDice0809 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 That was the thought behind just getting furious charge. The old 5th edition Red Thirst worked for me all of one every four or so games. I agree that a turn to some Phil Kelly like randomness would be counter productive. Every other Chapter Tactic has some kind of permanent bonus along with a situational aspect (of greater or lesser worth). Grim Resolve- Stubborn PLUS BS 2 overwatch (and Deathwing. .. and Ravenwing. .) Ultramarine- Doctrines. IF- Reroll all bolt weapons. WS- Skilled Rider plus 1 and H&R. IH- FNP and IWND... I can go on... BA? Furious Charge. .. and a Detachment that gives +1 I. Both only work on the charge. Its not too much to ask for a bonus that if it only works in ONE round of combat, its at less in effect whether or not you get the charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fahlnor Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 .... The best thing about the other books is the reliability of the bonuses they get. I don't want the possibility of a bonus. I want to know that i am going to get it no matter what. Sorry, but this clearly isn't true. We currently have a guaranteed reliable bonus: if we charge, we get stuff. That's exactly as reliable as the bonuses in the other books. What you actually want - and what everybody wants, it seems - is for our bonuses to be more powerful. If it was purely a question of our bonuses being as reliable as the other books' bonuses, then, well, good. Job done, because our bonuses are precisely as reliable as the other books' bonuses. Let's be clear what we're asking for here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Antodeniel Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Well, this is how we should get it : Chapter tactic : Blood Angels - The Red Thirst : All Blood Angels units have the Furious Charge special rules and +1 on their Initiative. Plus the turn they charge, if the roll is 8 or more, they got the rage special rule for this turn. - Angel's Kind : When enters using deepstrike, all units within a drop pods or with jump pack can charge if their dice is a Hit. I think, whitout being OP, this kind of change could balance our codex to the other level. (50/50 of permanent and chance bonus...the deal sound correct this way.) Edit : By the way, i was wondering....since the Death Company can have Jump Pack + Bolter....is their a little possibility that we could add some Tactical Marine with Jump Pack ? (Of course with restrictions for Heavy Weapons). But i think it would be too much and that it could add as much as it could broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fahlnor Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 .... Every other Chapter Tactic has some kind of permanent bonus along with a situational aspect (of greater or lesser worth). Grim Resolve- Stubborn PLUS BS 2 overwatch (and Deathwing. .. and Ravenwing. .) Ultramarine- Doctrines. IF- Reroll all bolt weapons. WS- Skilled Rider plus 1 and H&R. IH- FNP and IWND... I can go on... BA? Furious Charge. .. and a Detachment that gives +1 I. Both only work on the charge. Its not too much to ask for a bonus that if it only works in ONE round of combat, its at less in effect whether or not you get the charge. Again, I disagree with this. We already have two bonuses. We're talking about a Company here - not a random CAD, not any other random formation: we're talking specifically about a Company. That being the case, we have Furious Charge and Red Thirst. In terms of Chapter Tactics, why should we be expecting any more than that? Furious Charge and The Red Thirst are absolutely in line with other Chapter Tactics. Sure, situationally some of them are more powerful than ours, but then, situationally ours are more powerful than some of them. It's entirely reasonable. The difference - for me - lies in the bonuses that Codex Space Marines gets in addition to their Chapter Tactics. That's where we fall somewhat short. In addition to Chapter Tactics, Space Marines get Objective Secured on every unit and free transports for every unit. In response to that, we only get Objective Secured on our Troops. That and only that is the shortfall in our bonuses. Furious Charge and The Red Thirst are entirely in line with Space Marines bonuses. Give us Objective Secured on everything and give us free transports and we're laughing. If you prefer to come up with an alternative "Blood Angels" extra bonus instead of Objective Secured and free transports, I totally agree that's reasonable. But complaining that we fall short of even basic Chapter Tactics is just plain incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fahlnor Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Well, this is how we should get it : Chapter tactic : Blood Angels - The Red Thirst : All Blood Angels units have the Furious Charge special rules and +1 on their Initiative. Plus the turn they charge, if the roll is 8 or more, they got the rage special rule for this turn. - Angel's Kind : When enters using deepstrike, all units within a drop pods or with jump pack can charge if their dice is a Hit. I think, whitout being OP, this kind of change could balance our codex to the other level. (50/50 of permanent and chance bonus...the deal sound correct this way.) I think this pushes us right out the other side of the discussion and into too much power, I'm afraid. Currently Imperial Fists are looking at rerolling 1s on bolter shots. That's basically it. We're asking for Furious Charge, The Red Thirst, Rage and first turn charges/charges from reserve? Way too powerful. I would accept the idea of charging if you roll a Hit as a replacement for the Objective Secured on every unit and free transports, though. In that regard I think it's a good idea. As one part of a Chapter Tactic which also includes a further three special rules, I think we're going too far. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Antodeniel Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Well, this is how we should get it : Chapter tactic : Blood Angels - The Red Thirst : All Blood Angels units have the Furious Charge special rules and +1 on their Initiative. Plus the turn they charge, if the roll is 8 or more, they got the rage special rule for this turn. - Angel's Kind : When enters using deepstrike, all units within a drop pods or with jump pack can charge if their dice is a Hit. I think, whitout being OP, this kind of change could balance our codex to the other level. (50/50 of permanent and chance bonus...the deal sound correct this way.) I think this pushes us right out the other side of the discussion and into too much power, I'm afraid. Currently Imperial Fists are looking at rerolling 1s on bolter shots. That's basically it. We're asking for Furious Charge, The Red Thirst, Rage and first turn charges/charges from reserve? Way too powerful. I would accept the idea of charging if you roll a Hit as a replacement for the Objective Secured on every unit and free transports, though. In that regard I think it's a good idea. As one part of a Chapter Tactic which also includes a further three special rules, I think we're going too far. Nota Bene : Permanent Furious Charge and Red Thirst are a legit permanent buff. And remember that the Rage on charge can be on 4+/5+ or 6+ if balance need, while a 1/3 chance of charge after deepstrike doesn't sound too powerfull and sound fluffy... (The Fluff, always follow the Fluff...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I wouldnt allow that for pods, but think that with JPs its a great bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 It makes sense that with a perfect landing we'd be able to charge, and if we scatter off target wed need the prep time etc. I like that a lot, promotes aggressive play and not an over reliance on a special rule. Could potentially change it so that if they scatter under 3 inches or something, thus turning Descent very powerful too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I think it would be cool if you could scatter into the enemy without penalty. Then there would be hammer of wrath and close combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I think it would be cool if you could scatter into the enemy without penalty. Then there would be hammer of wrath and close combat. That would likely be the most fluffy rule of all time. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother apocalyptic Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I would really love it if they made the Death company our "free force" in the battle company. For every infantry unit in the army, you get Death company models. Unit size - death company models 5-7 - 1 8-9 - D3 10 - D3+1 For every 10 DC, you can swap them for a single DC dread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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