If Blood Angels Had a (non useless) battle company...

[hairojin]

As I love tacticals I would really like to see this rule; May charge after firing a weapon with the rapid fire and/or salvo rule.

 

I don't think it would be too OP, it would work nicely with furious charge and the red thirst. Giving them relentless would be a bit much as I think that would lead to grav gun spam.

[GrunTeufel]

 

.... The best thing about the other books is the reliability of the bonuses they get. I don't want the possibility of a bonus. I want to know that i am going to get it no matter what.

Sorry, but this clearly isn't true.

 

We currently have a guaranteed reliable bonus: if we charge, we get stuff. That's exactly as reliable as the bonuses in the other books.

 

What you actually want - and what everybody wants, it seems - is for our bonuses to be more powerful.

 

If it was purely a question of our bonuses being as reliable as the other books' bonuses, then, well, good. Job done, because our bonuses are precisely as reliable as the other books' bonuses.

 

Let's be clear what we're asking for here.

 

 

You are aware I was talking about the random black rage rules that morticon talked about right? Not the furious charge we have right now.

[The Unseen]

 

.... Every other Chapter Tactic has some kind of permanent bonus along with a situational aspect (of greater or lesser worth). Grim Resolve- Stubborn PLUS BS 2 overwatch (and Deathwing. .. and Ravenwing. .) Ultramarine- Doctrines. IF- Reroll all bolt weapons. WS- Skilled Rider plus 1 and H&R. IH- FNP and IWND... I can go on...

BA? Furious Charge. .. and a Detachment that gives +1 I. Both only work on the charge. Its not too much to ask for a bonus that if it only works in ONE round of combat, its at less in effect whether or not you get the charge.

Again, I disagree with this.

 

We already have two bonuses. We're talking about a Company here - not a random CAD, not any other random formation: we're talking specifically about a Company. That being the case, we have Furious Charge and Red Thirst. In terms of Chapter Tactics, why should we be expecting any more than that? Furious Charge and The Red Thirst are absolutely in line with other Chapter Tactics. Sure, situationally some of them are more powerful than ours, but then, situationally ours are more powerful than some of them. It's entirely reasonable.

 

The difference - for me - lies in the bonuses that Codex Space Marines gets in addition to their Chapter Tactics. That's where we fall somewhat short. In addition to Chapter Tactics, Space Marines get Objective Secured on every unit and free transports for every unit. In response to that, we only get Objective Secured on our Troops.

 

That and only that is the shortfall in our bonuses. Furious Charge and The Red Thirst are entirely in line with Space Marines bonuses. Give us Objective Secured on everything and give us free transports and we're laughing.

 

If you prefer to come up with an alternative "Blood Angels" extra bonus instead of Objective Secured and free transports, I totally agree that's reasonable. But complaining that we fall short of even basic Chapter Tactics is just plain incorrect.

 

 

Except, we don't get 2 bonuses in a basic CAD or whatever, other chapters do. We take the BSF just to catch up with other chapters in a CAD on special rules, and then they can stack the company bonuses ON TOP OF their chapter tactics. Our company formation literally gives us nothing the BSF doesn't already.

 

And really, FC as a chapter tactic compared to to most of the others is pretty piss poor, most marine units make pretty terrible assault units. Against anything resembling a dedicated assault unit, your going to die horrifically. It gives us an edge in marine v marine fights, which is good. But how much is that +1 Str and I going to help your tac squad against say, a unit of thunderwolves or a daemon prince? Not much. You know what would help a lot? re-rolls to shooting, hit and run, etc.

[Lucien Eilam]

That's a ludicrous criticism. No Chapter Tactics rule enables a Tactical Squad to go toe to toe with Thunderwolves, the vast majority of armies are not composed entirely of dedicated assault units, and Furious Charge/Red Thirst apply just as well to the Blood Angels' dedicated assault units.

[Charlo]

Also, a lack of "chapter tactics" means we can do cool things like infiltrate a squad of Sanguinary Guard with Shrike :D

[Jolemai]

Also, a lack of "chapter tactics" means we can do cool things like infiltrate a squad of Sanguinary Guard with Shrike

About that... it turns out that due to the BRB FAQ clarification, Shrike basically can't join anyone during Deployment.

Discussion in OR sub-forum

[The Unseen]

Shrikes had issues forever, anyone who doesn't let you run him as infiltrating a unit of jump infantry isn't worth gaming with.

 

And lucius, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. What I mean to say is that the cc buff BA get does not allow any of their basic units to do anything they weren't normally capable of. Any unit a tac squad can chew through on the charge, we probably wouldn't have had any problem if we didn't have the buff. Tau, IG, Eldar, etc, we already can and probably should have engaged these units in assaults successfully, to counter their firepower and take advantage of their lower toughness and saves. Our buff just makes that a slightly more attractive prospect, we wound on 2+ instead of 3s. Against dedicated assault units, we still have to avoid combat. The FC charge makes us more effective in situations we were already good at, but doesn't help nearly as much in situations were we would normally be outclassed. Good generalship of course can use this to leverage close fights into wins, but it lacks the sheer versatility and strength of just giving everyone rerolls constantly.

[Cronhour]

People seem to be confusing chapter tactics with Demi company benefits.

Or chapter tactics should be furious charge and the plus 1 initiative imo. Then the Demi company should give something fluffy such as an extra d6 on charges and runs or all models in the Demi company gain an extra cc weapon. Fluffy and powerful but not game breaking in comparison. Plus the auxilary choices could be fluffy and great.

[Arkangilos]

If the Initiative were to change, I think the +1 Initiative should also go to unwieldy. So our Unwieldy weapons would go before other unwieldy.

 

I mean personally, I think unwieldy should just reduce Initiative by 1 anyways, but since it reduces it to 1 rather than by 1, our +1 I should apply to everything... including unwieldy.

[evildrcheese]

I think I mentions previously, but I'll say again I'd like something give us a better chance of getting the charge off, like making our charge range 6"+D6. Also Death Maskss should be available as an upgrade and they should deny overwatch (maybe denied if fail a ld on3D6?)...

 

D

[Arkangilos]

I agree, HQ and Champions should be able to get death masks, and red grails.

 

Back in Third, they could all get Death Masks, pretty much.

[Lucien Eilam]

Hardly, it was independent character only, and not as good as the current version - just -1 to Morale after losing an assault. It would be nice to have it back on the Special Issue Wargear list, but let's not get carried away, and there's always the relic version.

 

Deny Overwatch on every sergeant would be insane. Space Marines aren't going to forget how to shoot just because one of your guys is wearing a pretty helmet.

[Arkangilos]

Hardly, it was independent character only, and not as good as the current version - just -1 to Morale after losing an assault. It would be nice to have it back on the Special Issue Wargear list, but let's not get carried away, and there's always the relic version.

 

Deny Overwatch on every sergeant would be insane. Space Marines aren't going to forget how to shoot just because one of your guys is wearing a pretty helmet.

The independent characters are who I was talking about, lol. 

 

The Sanguinary Priests, the Chaplains, the Captains. 

 

IIRC (I will check when I get home) they could also take grails.

[BadDice0809]

-1 to enemy leadership after assault would be better against the few units the fear USR currently works against! I would take that trade off. Change Angelic Crown to -2 leadership and it stacks with normal ones... maybe next Codex! Two more years....

[evildrcheese]

Hardly, it was independent character only, and not as good as the current version - just -1 to Morale after losing an assault. It would be nice to have it back on the Special Issue Wargear list, but let's not get carried away, and there's always the relic version.

 

Deny Overwatch on every sergeant would be insane. Space Marines aren't going to forget how to shoot just because one of your guys is wearing a pretty helmet.

Perhaps it would be a bit OP...however don't DA get overwatch at full BS across the board regardless?

 

Let's face it, there's no debuffs to shooting equivalent to some of the rules that can blunt a charge or at least leave us at a disadvantage.

 

The real problem is we're playing an assaulty army in a shooty edition and until the relative balance between the 2 is adjusted we're going to be at a disadvantage. Not that I want to see a new edition any time soon...

 

D

[Lucien Eilam]

IIRC (I will check when I get home) they could also take grails.

Sanguinary High Priest and Chaplain only, IIRC.

 

Perhaps it would be a bit OP...however don't DA get overwatch at full BS across the board regardless?

 

No, they only get to Overwatch in cases where they would already get to Overwatch (so your proposed rule would almost completely negate their equivalent of Chapter Tactics). Their bonuses increase their Overwatch BS to 2, 3 or full, depending on which Detachment/Formation they're in.

 

The real problem is we're playing an assaulty army in a shooty edition and until the relative balance between the 2 is adjusted we're going to be at a disadvantage.

 

It's not really. If your meta is skewed toward shooting, put more line of sight blocking terrain on the table. The rulebook advises that you use as much terrain as possible for a reason.

[Arkangilos]

Sanguinary High Priest and Chaplain only, IIRC.

 

You are mostly right.

 

Standard Bearers could as well. I checked last night. 

[Omega-soul]

Well really what essentially BA get as  chapter tactic?

The OLD edition furious charge split in 2 and getting it should make us happy?

I think it was a cheating - BA already got armywide FC  and shortened scatter!

It was  our actual chapter tactic +1 strengh and initiative the first and Decsent- second

 

Now getting all this together is a rigid structure of getting a Baal strike force, getting warlord trait (take Dante) and still we lost OBsec for all we already had - why is that better than getting a few sanguinary priest for old  FC?

 

Problem is that - we get only one  whimsy bonus for +1WS

Well - I  think it's the place where it should  start for our demi/full  companies - Demi-company get +1initiative and obsec- full-company +1 ws and company support.

 

+1 ws for current  situation  is the only REAL bonus because it always works - in case of charge or defence - better defence for tacs,  better attacks for assaults where FC and +1initiative is pretty situational not just for devastators and dreadnoughts but for all BA units because it's too simple to counter that bonus where - you can't counter rerols, hit'n runs, IWND and so on (or at least make it that easy)

[Cronhour]

Have any of you played with a Demi/ gladius? All I've seen mentioned is the objective secured and free transports for the battle company. While OS landspeeders and centurion Devs are nice the doctrines were one of the best things. In a gladius strike force you get one tactical doctrine from the Demi company (reroll 1s in shooting/ assault, tactical marines reroll all misses) then in a gladius you get a second tactical doctrine as well as an assault, and devestator doctrine, these buffs really help to kick out mor damage the turn in which they're used.

 

Our battle company is bloated and inflexible and provides no bonus past the os and our "chapter tactics"

 

Also on the point of reliability, sure our bonus are as reliable as the next persons, what they aren't are synergistic with the roles of the squads unlike space marines, they make all the units better, or provide full time benefit by adding value. For us to make use of our "chapter tactics" we have to make an effort to use our tactical squads in a way which undermines their role, by reducing their shooting to allow them to charge. To this end I think adding relentless as a Demi company bonus, and maybe counter attack as a battle company bonus would synergise well.

[Morticon]

Genius.  

Genius, genius.  

I approve of that logic! 

[Charlo]

...Holy crap.

 

Screw it, if every marine and thier servo skull can re roll pretty much anything for 3-5 turns of the game and DA are amazing on the ultimate defense then yes, I see no reason why we should have relentless.

 

Although - that said it doesn't REALLY give us all that much - the main benefits would be firing heavies/ plasma/ grav on the move before a charge. In terms of bolters we can still fire the pistols and charge, and we aren't charging after getting out of a Rhino or Pod so in effect we exchange a S4 AP5 bolt round for a S5 AP5 attack.

 

Obviously having both is better though!

 

Honestly maybe a rule like this would be better for the full company shebang, as I think relentless gives us a little too much freedom in our actions and takes the uniqueness away from Terminators etc:

 

"Rapid Assault Tactics:

The Blood Angels Chapter are adept at assaulting the enemies of the Imperium at blistering speeds, often overwhelming them with a coordinated line-breaking charge. Be it via land from their over-charged Rhino and Razorback transports or via orbit in planet-bound Drop Pods, none can stay the Sons of Sanguinius' wrath.

 

Units in this formation may declare a charge after disembarking from non-assault vehicle transports, though they are still bound by other restrictions - such as firing with Rapid Fire/ Heavy/ Salvo Weapons or being forced to emergency disembark etc.

 

Also Jump Infantry deploying via deep strike may declare a charge as long as they did not scatter upon arrival."

 

Combine this with not free transports but I think reduced cost (e.g. we pay for the engines) and it all comes out very fair IMO. The Jump infantry is also clever as with Dante and some Servo skulls you can make everyone charge. Also locator beacons.

 

This would lead to very fluffy lists for us I feel :)

[Frater Antodeniel]

You know what Charlo ?

You just helped me clear my mind....I don't think that i will work on a "Specific Exsanguinators" but more on a "Blood Angels Successors chapters" Codex.

I see it !

- Chapter Doctrines (like in the Space Marine one)

- Two Styles (Blood Angels / Flesh Tearers)

- Two Detachments (Blood Angels Codex/ Flesh Tearers Shield Of Baal Supplement)

- Relics fused

- Mix Blood Angels/Space Marine codex units (Land Speeder Storm ? Stormtalon ? Stalker ? Hunter ?....etc)

Well, i got the idea, but now, i will have to find how to make a Professional looking codex from this.....in the Blood Angels/Vampire/Gothic/Angelic/Fallen Angels appearance styles.....

[Cronhour]

...Holy crap.

 

Screw it, if every marine and thier servo skull can re roll pretty much anything for 3-5 turns of the game and DA are amazing on the ultimate defense then yes, I see no reason why we should have relentless.

 

Although - that said it doesn't REALLY give us all that much - the main benefits would be firing heavies/ plasma/ grav on the move before a charge. In terms of bolters we can still fire the pistols and charge, and we aren't charging after getting out of a Rhino or Pod so in effect we exchange a S4 AP5 bolt round for a S5 AP5 attack.

 

Obviously having both is better though!

 

Honestly maybe a rule like this would be better for the full company shebang, as I think relentless gives us a little too much freedom in our actions and takes the uniqueness away from Terminators etc:

 

"Rapid Assault Tactics:

The Blood Angels Chapter are adept at assaulting the enemies of the Imperium at blistering speeds, often overwhelming them with a coordinated line-breaking charge. Be it via land from their over-charged Rhino and Razorback transports or via orbit in planet-bound Drop Pods, none can stay the Sons of Sanguinius' wrath.

 

Units in this formation may declare a charge after disembarking from non-assault vehicle transports, though they are still bound by other restrictions - such as firing with Rapid Fire/ Heavy/ Salvo Weapons or being forced to emergency disembark etc.

 

Also Jump Infantry deploying via deep strike may declare a charge as long as they did not scatter upon arrival."

 

Combine this with not free transports but I think reduced cost (e.g. we pay for the engines) and it all comes out very fair IMO. The Jump infantry is also clever as with Dante and some Servo skulls you can make everyone charge. Also locator beacons.

 

This would lead to very fluffy lists for us I feel :)

To be honest I thought it was too much to expect with the assaulting from reserves and while I still feel it works poorly as a bonus for a Demi company I think we might be in with a shot if the new Raven guard rumours turn out to be true. ( vanguard vets getting to charge from deep strike when landing within 9" of scouts, formation is 2-4 scouts 3-5 VV.) their supposed Demi company comes with scouts that can attach to other units adding outflank or infiltrate, and scouts can give units ignore cover on enmities within a certain range.

 

Personally I think the relentless or counterattack works well for our Demi company (along with FC and red thirst) or perhaps everyone getting an extra cc weapon (models all ready equipped with 2 cc weapons gain rage) as Demi companies are all about your tac squads plus a little flavour really.

 

As for the auxiliaries you could throw in DC squads/sanguinary guard, and VV charging from deep strike. I think a formation of DC that have to take drop pods could be cool, but the turn they land they can run then charge? Signifies throwing the lost into the enemy lines to cause havoc, not subtle not controllable but they're chew(literally) their way through the enemy or die trying.

 

But more over if the rave guard stuff is true it shows they're actually trying to be fluffy and powerful with the formations moving forward. It gives me hope for our next update.

[BadDice0809]

Saw the pics but can't read german. But the faction symbol and blurb at the bottom hint that the pinion demi company is not exclusive to RG- its for all space marines (but SW, BA, and DA of course)

[Charlo]

Saw the pics but can't read german. But the faction symbol and blurb at the bottom hint that the pinion demi company is not exclusive to RG- its for all space marines (but SW, BA, and DA of course)

 

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