Adults recruited to be Astartes

[Daylight]

Excuse the wall of text, but this is something I've been pondering for a while.

 

How often were full grown adults recruited as space marines? I assume it was with at least some frequency, as the technology in 30k was far more advanced. Grabiya's theorem shortened the time needed to make a battle ready astartes to around one year, and I can't see 14 year old astartes being the most commonplace. Plus, many sources hint at or outright state the functional immortality of the Astartes (I know this is a debated topic), so the initial age wouldn't make too much of a difference assuming the process succeeded. Also, many of the Primarchs's warriors would choose to undergo the surgeries despite the higher risks. For example, In HH book 3, it mentioned Kaedes Nex was an adult when he became a space marine. I figure in places such as Ultramar, recruits would likely train for years before undergoing ascension, especially if it only took one year to be battle ready. Or on Fenris, the best warriors, regardless of age, would be given the chance to become Astartes, though the risks would be higher. Even today, the men in special operations forces usually try out in their late 20's, and many serve through their 30's.

 

In 40k, Marine chapters are small, spec ops strike forces, gene seed is a precious resource, and there are only 1000 warriors in a chapter, so the chapter's gene seed deposits are probably smaller. In 30k, legions were the main forces of the Imperium; huge, and constantly expanding as more and more marines were needed (thus the need for Grabiya's Theorum). As such, I'd assume gene seed was far more common, and the age limits were likely very relaxed, with the aspirant's age being secondary to other factors, such as skill, fitness, and mental composition in order to rapidly grow the legions. As with anything though, I'd expect this to vary on a legion by legion basis.

 

Thoughts? Input? Again, sorry for the wall of text.

[Slips]

I think the Norm for 30k Space Marine indoctrination was anywhere between 10/12 - 25, maybe even early Thirties. We do know that there is a form of Cutoff where the age of the Aspirant makes it physically impossible for them to ascend, prime example being Kor Phaeron.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I dont believe it was possible even then.

Kor Phaeron suffered through numerous surguries, as he was too old for the process, and wasnt the physical equal of a full fledged marine

I believe there was something screwy with Luther of the Dark Angels, but dont remember fully.

Older material puts Russ's core warriors of Fenris refuse to be rejected from the Marine creating process regardless of age, and only 300 or so survived the process.

 

If anything, the Marine creation process is better in 40k than 30k. The process is more streamlined and less rushed, as the Legions had to recruit massively and quickly to replenish losses.

 

WLK

[helterskelter]

Not to throw a spanner in the works but I'd say the opposite. To be able to create so many marines so quickly you'd need a damn near perfect process. So the reason more oldies survived late implantation is because it was better. Then again it might just be the greater numbers involved that makes me think it looks better. I think I've seen one 40k story with late implantation involved and 90% of the community would rage furiously at the novels mention (yes a sweeping generalisation but you know)

[Daemon2027]

I'm guessing which geneseed was used would effect to. If I remeber the Iron Warriors geneseed took with easr, while the Imperial Fists required a tougher sort of recruit.

[Leif Bearclaw]

As a general rule (as far as I'm aware), adult Astartes conversion was only really performed on the Primarch's retinues from their home worlds, the guys they led before assuming command of their Legions. Plus it was stated to be a highly dangerous procedure, so outside of the special circumstances of 'keep the newly found demi-god sons of the Emperor happy', Astartes recruits would be in the same 10-14 or so range form 40k, because that's the age the process was designed for, and therefore offers the best perfromance.

[Corswain]

Wasn't one of the Raven Guard characters from extermination an adult when he was recruited. Not 100% as I don't have the book on me but I'm pretty sure.

[Daylight]

Wasn't one of the Raven Guard characters from extermination an adult when he was recruited. Not 100% as I don't have the book on me but I'm pretty sure.

It was Kaedes Nex, who it says endured a painful late transformation to a space marine. He was in prison for murder until he was pardoned by Corax to join the legion, so I assume he was definitely an adult. Plus, I don't think he had any particular relationship to Corax before he was found by him, so its one of the reasons I'm guessing the age limits were relaxed (if an imprisoned murderer who likely was in his 20s at least could be recruited, why not others?).

[tdemayo]

I've always assumed that the late recruits receive a kind of enhanced bio-augmetic surgery. Rather like Kasper in Prospero Burns, only more extensive, and with limited or modified geneseed organ inplantation. If the organs don't have a chance to grow in the subject, and affect his growth, it's all retrofitting.

 

If it's more dangerous and requires more resource, why would they bother very often?

[Scribe]

Based on some of the HH stuff (the Raven Guard) and a few mentions here or there that I seem to think I remember, early adults could do it, say 30 or less or whatever, outside that we have obvious examples where folks where too old so there is both sides.

[Kriegriss]

remember in the warhammer universe the imperial standard year is one thousand days as well witch changes things I know it clashes with the puberty timing but it makes it a little more plausible

[tdemayo]

I thought it was the same length of time, but divided into 1000 segements, each shorter than a Terran day...

remember in the warhammer universe the imperial standard year is one thousand days as well witch changes things I know it clashes with the puberty timing but it makes it a little more plausible

[Demus Ragnok]

The Dark Angels HH novel mentions the oldest recruits being taken for implantation being about 15. Nemiel and Zaharial being among them.

 

The older warriors in the Order undergo a different process(Luther and others).

[Joe]

Probably the same process that Maggard(?) underwent during False Gods/Galaxy in Flames. Raised to near-Astartes capabilities whilst not being a 'true Astartes', so to speak.

[Hammer of Olympia]

In my opinion,and what I learn from a few novels

 

from Scars: the recruitment starts for children of age  12 ( chogorian ) and 8 in terran,this is for people from Chogoris

while people from Terra starts at 7 to 9.

 

from Delivarance lost: the youngest male members of Corax rebellion group went up to ascend to full fledged astartes,like agapeto and his brother,those boys from I interpet them were around 10 or 11.

 

while for the case of Kor Phaeron,he truly is much too old to become astartes,even some of the word bearers says he is unworthy or some other title like that.

[Hyaenidae]

Two key factors interfere with the attempted adoption of mature male specimens, subconscious conditioning (not an issue until Codification) and gene-seed, which wreaks hell on the human frame, altering it down to a genetic level in painful fashion. Without these two factors, the question actually becomes "What are the lifespans and issues with creation of Old Night-esqe Thunder Warrior Tek-Barbarians?" Mind you, the tech is obviously much more polished in Legion service, than in Unification times, Luther being a very good example. But that's still not an astartes.

So, gene-seed. Simply put, yeah, it can be done in special cases. The VI legion Primarch honouring his brethren with Ascension nearly killed them all, but it was done, with sub-optimal results. The thing is, it's a waste. Gene-seed ain't cheap or easy to craft, and there is a higher success rate in children. It's cold, but true, to say that there are plenty of abandoned and war-orphaned on Terra and across the galaxy that can be used for a greater good (in the Imperium's eyes) than an older citizen who already has a solid skill set and path in life, even that of a capable Soldier, who could one day lead a Solar Auxilla regiment to glory if given the chance. It's all just getting a maximum return on a valuable and rare resource, not honour or dedication.

Edit: Wow, I just re-read that, and realized I'm Iron Warrior to the core....

[Slips]

Surprise surprise, LOL

 

Though it is pretty much the most apt reasoning behind why they recruit at young ages: When they bring a world into compliance, who have they been shooting and bombarding for the most part? Healthy, Adult Human Males. Who haven't they been shooting at (in the most likely case)? Women and Children (with half statistically being male) and Non Combat-Capable Adult Males (old, infirm, injured, etc.)

 

Of the above demographics, which is the most likely to be turned into an Astartes? The healthy male children, of course. It also serves a dual role of 'nipping the bud' on any potential children growing up to resent the Imperium who killed their fathers, uncles and other family members and creating resistance cells.

[Theredknight]

How about Amon of the thousand sons?

He was magnus's teacher, so must have been of a decent age when undergoing the process.

Then again I suppose he is a special case, as the pavoni cult could probably manipulate things to get how they want...

[Slips]

How about Amon of the thousand sons?

He was magnus's teacher, so must have been of a decent age when undergoing the process.

Then again I suppose he is a special case, as the pavoni cult could probably manipulate things to get how they want...

There are but a few special Cases; Kor Phaeron being the other along side a handful of others.

[Petitioner's City]

In Scars I think you can assume a few adults became Astartes, such as the Noyen-Khan who rebelled and perhaps Yusegei? I'm not sure though, because they could have been young leaders in the Khagan's Chogorion army.

[Theredknight]

Phaeron has this weaker old man description, Amon doesn't seem to, nor is he described anywhere (i don't think) As a sub par space marine.

His psychic abilities and that of the sons could have had a lot to do with that. Manipulation of his genetic coding and other things would assure that the recruit reached full maturity and not hindered by mortal weakness.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's more that having the original template for the gene-seed (i.e. the primarch it's derived from!) present means that faulty stock can be replaced much more quickly and easily.

 

From what we can tell, Space Marine creation was much more agressive and generally faster in the Great Crusade, with no limits to who could be inducted or how many. This meant that you got a lot of unstable people, or those with genetic conditions, or psychoses, or otherwise inferior stock entering the Legions. This means, in turn, that their harvested gene-seed will likely carry some sort of flaw afterwards.

 

During the early stages of the Heresy, many Legions went into recruitment OVERDRIVE to replace losses and reinforce weak companies. The Raven Guard suffered horribly with it, after their initial successes with the improved Raptor gene-seed. The World Eaters also went mental with their numbers, grabbing any old psycho who could survive the process.

 

By the time we reach 40k, there is not a single living primarch who takes an active part in the affairs of their sons. The gene-seed "bloodlines" are therefore taken from Space Marines and Space Marines alone, and are monitored and scrutinised for defects in each generation. Moreover, Imperial recruitment is VERY heavily regimented and subject to far more tests and training, over the course of many years. Recruits must therefore begin at a younger age, something which is technically not necessary... but the Space Marines you get tend to be better adjusted and stronger for it.

 

Chaos Marines? Well, they can do whatever they like... but the majority tend to be new traitors rather than created from existing Chaos Marine gene-seed. Each Space Marine can only donate once, unless they die...

 

From LG on TFE.

[LostAlone]

My feeling is that in the difference really is that in the Great Crusade era (when supermen were REAL supermen) whoever was doing the implanting (AdMech Biologis I think?) were a lot more chilled about experimenting and coming up with different approaches to handle whatever situation was thrown at them. Especially with the Primarchs around to get pure samples from and with the Emperor still moonwalking writ large among the stars the tech priests were pretty much down with anything - You want us to turn this grown ass man into a space marine? Well I'm sure we can figure something out.

 

In later years this kinda stuff would become directly heretical but tech priests of the era were living through a golden age where the Omnissiah was around to lead them and it felt to them that they could pretty much do anything as long as it seemed to be for the furtherment of knowledge or the betterment of the imperium. Sometimes it works out with no problems, perhaps because the Emperor or at least his elite genetics crew got involved. It makes sense really - The Emperor shows up on Cholchis or Chiogria or Deliverance, has a chat with his newly found sons, each of whom say 'I wanna take these guys with me' and Big E says he'll figure it out. At other times they either have less reliable genestock or it's some priest working solo or it's a host with some kind of flaw or whatever and that's why we see some of these implantations not working out so well.

 

Space Marines were designed as a mass production line and if you think about ti that way then you can maybe see more of what's going on. Space Marines are like soda cans. The process to make them is nice and streamlined and works pretty much every time. The process is great - efficient and fast, but it's totally inflexible. It only works if you feed in the exact ingredients it's expecting. If you want to make space marines out of other older people (or a soda can out of glass or cement or cocaine) you need a different process. You can get to the same place, sort of. You can definitely still make something that is recognizably a Space Marine but each different person (and especially the further you get from the original ingredients) the more radical and risky the process gets to try and achieve the same results. Most of the time you are just better off sticking to the original process, certainly just to make basic marines, but sometimes what you want is a soda can made of cocaine (so you can have coke in your coke dawg) and you send some dudes off to figure that out for you.