Has anyone read The Unforgiven by Gav Thorpe?

[Phoebus]

I get what you're saying, but I don't think Thorpe is guilty of telling vs. showing as much as he is of deus ex machina-like devices. Additionally, I'm not sure he considers enough whether his plot devices serve the story as much as they do its themes. E.g., more consideration is given to the Dark Angels being sneaky and secretive than whether or not their actions make sense within the context of their situation.

[Volt]

What bugs me the most about the book is the ending. The revelations are cool, but what the hell happened to Sabrael? Telemenus? Annael? Calastus? Their threads are completely dropped and not discussed at all.

[b1soul]

I get what you're saying, but I don't think Thorpe is guilty of telling vs. showing as much as he is of deus ex machina-like devices. Additionally, I'm not sure he considers enough whether his plot devices serve the story as much as they do its themes. E.g., more consideration is given to the Dark Angels being sneaky and secretive than whether or not their actions make sense within the context of their situation.

Gav's writing reads like Forge World fluff some times... the descriptions are clear but quite bland for a novel.

[HeritorA]

b1soul

'Gav's writing reads like Forge World fluff some times... the descriptions are clear but quite bland for a novel. '

soooo true

[Vorenus]

I just finished reading The Unforgiven last night, and I have to say that I really liked the ending.  This book was kind of a payoff for slogging through the six books previous to it (three Horus Heresy books, Angels of Darkness, and the first two in the so-called Legacy of Caliban trilogy).  I have mixed feelings about Gav Thorpe's writing.  I thought he did an excellent job with the Path of the Eldar series, but Ravenwing was a chore to get through, and the Master of Sanctity was not much better.  But The Unforgiven really delivered, I thought.  I'm a sucker for time travel books anyway, so the paradox of duality at the end was delicious.  Ezekiel's final words that closed the book were chilling--and perfect.

 

Volt:  Telemenus is a Dreadnought now.  Sabrael, Annael, and Calastus are dead.  Which is fine with me, I disliked their characters--I disliked Telemenus, too, for that matter.  The bigger question that is left unresolved in my mind is:  Was Telemenus really seeing the Emperor?  Or was he being tricked by a Daemon?  Or simply just going insane?  I think Gav Thorpe did a great job of leaving that ambiguous.  (I still don't like Telemenus very much.)  One of Thorpe's weaknesses appears to be developing fleshed out characters:  Saphon is cunning and mysterious, Asmodai is angry, Belial is the perfect warrior, etc.  They all just come across as very flat, two-dimensional (at best) characters to me.  Actually, from the entire series, the only character that I really liked was Astelan, because that character was fully fleshed out.  But Astelan was basically not even in the final book (at least, there are no scenes in which he is featured, other than when Ezekiel mentions that he can sense Astelan's mind on board an enemy ship in the final space battle).  And again Thorpe did a great job keeping Astelan's true purpose and motivation ambiguous.  We still don't know if Astelan is in fact corrupted the same way Methelas was, or if he was playing the long con.  For all we know, Astelan may have been Cypher all along.  Who is to say that Astelan didn't somehow alter his appearance when he allowed himself to be taken captive?  The "true" identity of Cypher is never actually revealed.  "Lord Cypher" was a title in the Order, after all, not a name.  Multiple different people could be Cypher either simultaneously or serially.  We just don't know.  And I like that ambiguity.

 

And here's the thing:  Despite my criticism that most of Thorpe's characters are flat and two-dimensional, I am not convinced that I could do any better.  I've tried my hand at writing fiction over the years, and even submitted some for publication, but I've never been fortunate enough to actually get any fiction published.  (I have published some non-fiction, but that involves a very different writing style and skill.)  The fact that Thorpe could take all these different threads and pull them together and resist the temptation to resolve all of the ambiguities is actually quite impressive.

[Vorenus]

Upon further reflection, I realized I left out one item that I also really enjoyed:  How completely dysfunctional the Dark Angels chapter is!  By that I mean that their paranoia and obsession with secrecy is actually a liability on the battlefield.  At multiple points throughout the series you have different units WITHIN THE SAME CHAPTER who come into conflict with each other because they don't share information.  I wish there was a good way to reflect that in the rules of the tabletop game.  (Maybe Deathwing and Ravenwing can be Battle Brothers, but other companies have to follow the "One Eye Open" rule when within 6" of a Deathwing or Ravenwing unit?  I don't know, I'm just spitballing here.)

[drooling blood]

This book was kind of a payoff for slogging through the six books previous to it.

 

 

And theres the problem.

Most Bl authours can barely write 2 novels out of a trilogy.