Blast templates and Jink... not the same old question

[ValourousHeart]

Hey guys, a question came up in a game today and I wanted to get the community opinion.

 

I understand that a unit that is hit with a blast weapon that was not targeted just gets to take it to the face.

Personally I don't agree with that, but that isn't the purpose of this post.

 

The question is who is "targeted"?

Is it only the poor smuck that the hole is centered on originally... the unit his is with... or is it anyone under the blast template before scatter.

 

Would ruins affect this rulling?

Is everyone in the building techincally targeted since everyone is potentually hit, or only the one floor that has the fewest guys because that is the worst option for the person targeted?

[Elios Harg]

Even when using blast templates you have to select a target unit. Then you place the center hole over the base of any model in the target unit.

[SnakeChisler]

The target unit can then elect to jink

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the rule, bottom line is don't clump your stuff up together so you don't get caught out and I've used it to my advantage on a number of occasions.

 

Tactically you need to be managing the battlefield better if your getting mugged by blast all the time and if you play with lots of Bikes and the Shroud its taking the Mickey out of your opponent expecting to get a secondary jink, the amount of cover were getting is pretty obscene.

[shabbadoo]

The question is who is "targeted"?

Is it only the poor smuck that the hole is centered on originally... the unit his is with... or is it anyone under the blast template before scatter.

P. 158, third and fourth sentences. The hole in the blast marker needs to be put wholly over the base of a chosen model before rolling for Scatter. That is the starting requirement, but if the blast template touches more than one unit after it is placed, but before rolling for Scatter, they are both being targeted by the effect.

A less obvious (but better) question would be, "What if a blast template scatters from its original designated target and onto a model with the Jink rule? Does that model get a chance to Jink, or is it unable to do so because it doesn't qualify as a designated target and the "to hit" process has already been resolved?" That question isn't answered anywhere. Seems funny that a unit can Jink against accurately targeted fire, but not against inaccurately targeted fire. Well, that is just some hard stuff to avoid, that inaccurately targeted fire. Orks, with blast weapons- the bane of Jinking units.

[marti350]

Shabbadoo I'd like to agree with you because I agree that is how it should work. Anything under the initial blast seems like a targeted unit, but to me the wording of selecting a blast target only calls one unit the targeted unit so RAW I think only the one unit gets to jink. I added it to the FAQ email to games workshop. Enough people were asking about it that the big tournaments FAQ'd it so hopefully GW will as well

[CarbonBased]

Shabbadoo I'd like to agree with you because I agree that is how it should work. Anything under the initial blast seems like a targeted unit, but to me the wording of selecting a blast target only calls one unit the targeted unit so RAW I think only the one unit gets to jink. I added it to the FAQ email to games workshop. Enough people were asking about it that the big tournaments FAQ'd it so hopefully GW will as well

 

If I may ask, because I don't go to tournaments, which way did the big tourneys decide when they FAQ'd it?

[marti350]

 

Shabbadoo I'd like to agree with you because I agree that is how it should work. Anything under the initial blast seems like a targeted unit, but to me the wording of selecting a blast target only calls one unit the targeted unit so RAW I think only the one unit gets to jink. I added it to the FAQ email to games workshop. Enough people were asking about it that the big tournaments FAQ'd it so hopefully GW will as well

 

If I may ask, because I don't go to tournaments, which way did the big tourneys decide when they FAQ'd it?

 

 

NOVA said any unit under the initial blast placement can jink but cant jink on a scatter

[shabbadoo]

They should just errata Jink so that it can be used, period, considering it de-nuts the unit's shooting in a game where shooting is kind of important (especially for units which actually can Jink). This is one of those instances where a special rule may only work in one out of three instances where it should apply, depdending on what GW says about it.  This is supposed to be a game edition where special rules actually are special, rather than "special".

[ValourousHeart]

I agree Shabbadoo. I think Nova got it worng.

 

The heart of this topic isn't really about JINK, it is about rules interpretations that denied any voluntary action that improves your chance of survival.

 

Blast weapons are supposed to be less accurate weapons, but that lower accuracy is off set by getting to resolve the hit after it scatters. After all, with every other weapon type, if you MISS you don't get to check and see if your misses actually HIT something else. That is one of the advantages of blasts... they don't always hit their intended target, but they rarely completely miss hitting anything either.

 

But Nova's ruling makes blast weapons more deadly if they MISS. Which then creates a situation where players would actually prefer that their blast weapons MISS!

 

The spirit of the rules is a tricky subject, but I think we can agree that hoping to miss is against the spirit of the rules.

[marti350]

I agree Shabbadoo. I think Nova got it worng.

 

The heart of this topic isn't really about JINK, it is about rules interpretations that denied any voluntary action that improves your chance of survival.

 

Blast weapons are supposed to be less accurate weapons, but that lower accuracy is off set by getting to resolve the hit after it scatters. After all, with every other weapon type, if you MISS you don't get to check and see if your misses actually HIT something else. That is one of the advantages of blasts... they don't always hit their intended target, but they rarely completely miss hitting anything either.

 

But Nova's ruling makes blast weapons more deadly if they MISS. Which then creates a situation where players would actually prefer that their blast weapons MISS!

 

The spirit of the rules is a tricky subject, but I think we can agree that hoping to miss is against the spirit of the rules.

 

 

Keep in mind with the nova ruling everyone touched by the initial placement gets to declare jinks. So for the blast to hit another unit untouched by that initial placement means the blast has to really scatter. If you're running a clumped up bike line near a darkshroud then most of your units are probably under the initial blast anyway. So they get to declare their jinks before the scatter roll. I think it would be a little unfair to get to declare your jink after the scatter roll because then the initial unit can wait and hope for scatter. And let's be honest, our 2+ and 3+ rerollable jinks near the darkshroud are pretty strong as is

[Master Avoghai]

I agree Shabbadoo. I think Nova got it worng.

The heart of this topic isn't really about JINK, it is about rules interpretations that denied any voluntary action that improves your chance of survival.

Blast weapons are supposed to be less accurate weapons, but that lower accuracy is off set by getting to resolve the hit after it scatters. After all, with every other weapon type, if you MISS you don't get to check and see if your misses actually HIT something else. That is one of the advantages of blasts... they don't always hit their intended target, but they rarely completely miss hitting anything either.

But Nova's ruling makes blast weapons more deadly if they MISS. Which then creates a situation where players would actually prefer that their blast weapons MISS!

The spirit of the rules is a tricky subject, but I think we can agree that hoping to miss is against the spirit of the rules.

Do you mean then "how do I remove the casualties?"

 

if so it depends of the nature of the blast weapon

 

If it is a direct blast weapon then you have to remove the casualties by starting with the closest from the shooter like a normal weapon. Even if the said model is not under the template

If it's a barrage weapon you must start by the center of the template and then remove the closest model from the center etc etc

[ValourousHeart]

Keep in mind with the nova ruling everyone touched by the initial placement gets to declare jinks. So for the blast to hit another unit untouched by that initial placement means the blast has to really scatter. If you're running a clumped up bike line near a darkshroud then most of your units are probably under the initial blast anyway. So they get to declare their jinks before the scatter roll. I think it would be a little unfair to get to declare your jink after the scatter roll because then the initial unit can wait and hope for scatter. And let's be honest, our 2+ and 3+ rerollable jinks near the darkshroud are pretty strong as is

That was the point of my original post. I was being told that only the unit under the hole got to Jink. Not any other units under the template. Just the one being targeted.

 

I am not quite sure I understand your points... are you saying that because our re-roll jink is powerful blast templates that MISS should gain the ignore cover USR?

Or is it that you don't think that the template won't scatter that far or that often to matter?

 

Please explain why these weapons should be more powerful if they MISS, than they are if they HIT.

[marti350]

 

Keep in mind with the nova ruling everyone touched by the initial placement gets to declare jinks. So for the blast to hit another unit untouched by that initial placement means the blast has to really scatter. If you're running a clumped up bike line near a darkshroud then most of your units are probably under the initial blast anyway. So they get to declare their jinks before the scatter roll. I think it would be a little unfair to get to declare your jink after the scatter roll because then the initial unit can wait and hope for scatter. And let's be honest, our 2+ and 3+ rerollable jinks near the darkshroud are pretty strong as is

That was the point of my original post. I was being told that only the unit under the hole got to Jink. Not any other units under the template. Just the one being targeted.

 

I am not quite sure I understand your points... are you saying that because our re-roll jink is powerful blast templates that MISS should gain the ignore cover USR?

Or is it that you don't think that the template won't scatter that far or that often to matter?

 

Please explain why these weapons should be more powerful if they MISS, than they are if they HIT.

 

 

It's not that they should get ignores cover. It is that if you allow bikes to declare jinks after the scatter roll, jink becomes way more powerful. As it is now, you declare before to hit rolls are made, so you don't know for sure how bad you're going to need it. If you could declare jink after the scatter then you get to wait and see well it scattered and only hit once in this unit instead of 5 times so I won't bother jinking. That ability to decide after is what strikes me as unfair.

 

Your other option is to allow all units to decide on jinking before each shooting attack is made, regardless of whether or not they are the targets like Shab was saying earlier. I would be okay with this as long as you had to decide which units were jinking before every shooting attack. I just think it would be unfair to get to decide after you know which units are getting hit

[ValourousHeart]

 

I agree Shabbadoo. I think Nova got it worng.

The heart of this topic isn't really about JINK, it is about rules interpretations that denied any voluntary action that improves your chance of survival.

Blast weapons are supposed to be less accurate weapons, but that lower accuracy is off set by getting to resolve the hit after it scatters. After all, with every other weapon type, if you MISS you don't get to check and see if your misses actually HIT something else. That is one of the advantages of blasts... they don't always hit their intended target, but they rarely completely miss hitting anything either.

But Nova's ruling makes blast weapons more deadly if they MISS. Which then creates a situation where players would actually prefer that their blast weapons MISS!

The spirit of the rules is a tricky subject, but I think we can agree that hoping to miss is against the spirit of the rules.

Do you mean then "how do I remove the casualties?"

if so it depends of the nature of the blast weapon

If it is a direct blast weapon then you have to remove the casualties by starting with the closest from the shooter like a normal weapon. Even if the said model is not under the template

If it's a barrage weapon you must start by the center of the template and then remove the closest model from the center etc etc

No I'm talking about if you place the blast marker over a unit and DO NOT SCATTER off of that unit (Let's call that a HIT), then the unit gets to take ANY saves possible.

 

If on the other hand if you SCATTER off the target unit and onto the unit next to them (We'll call that a MISS), then the unit you actually HIT (the unit next to the one you targeted) DOES NOT get to take any voluntary saves, like going to ground or jinking.

 

By denying those saves you make blast weapons MORE likely to cause damage to units when they MISS.

 

Whereas ALL other weapons are LESS likely to cause damage to units when they MISS.

I just want to know what your justification is for that counter intutitive event.

 

Shouldn't a MISS be less likely to cause damage than a HIT?

[ValourousHeart]

 

It's not that they should get ignores cover. It is that if you allow bikes to declare jinks after the scatter roll, jink becomes way more powerful. As it is now, you declare before to hit rolls are made, so you don't know for sure how bad you're going to need it. If you could declare jink after the scatter then you get to wait and see well it scattered and only hit once in this unit instead of 5 times so I won't bother jinking. That ability to decide after is what strikes me as unfair.

 

Your other option is to allow all units to decide on jinking before each shooting attack is made, regardless of whether or not they are the targets like Shab was saying earlier. I would be okay with this as long as you had to decide which units were jinking before every shooting attack. I just think it would be unfair to get to decide after you know which units are getting hit

 

 

Ok, and maybe that is true, but consider this.

 

We have BIKE SQUAD 1 that is targeted by a Leman Russ battle canon.

They choose to jink.

 

The blast scatters over onto BIKE SQUAD 2 and TACTICAL SQUAD 1 both out in the open.

 

According to the BRB both Bike Squad 2 and Tactical Squad would get no Armor or Cover save.

And according to Nova neither would be allowed to go to ground or jink in order to get a save.

Nova is getting to that conclusion based on a rule they seem to have made up about units which are hit but yet somehow not the target of an attack.

 

 

Now let's look at the alternative... non-blast weapons.

You never question what unit is being targeted.

You never worry about another unit being wiped out without a save if the shot misses.

 

 

Now with my solution a unit that the blast template scatters over is also the target of the attack.

So in the same example above BIKE SQUAD 2 and TACTICAL SQUAD 1 would get to take thier jink or go to ground saves.

And in my next turn I would have 2 bike squads that count as having jinked, and 1 tactical squad that had gone to ground.

 

I am not sure how that is unfair when compared to how Nova has it work.

[marti350]

Like I said, I'd be fine with you declaring jinks for all units in the area to begin with guessing as to whether or not you think it would scatter, but I think getting to choose after it scatters on to the new unit is unfair and too far out of line with how jink save must be declared now. 

 

For go to ground I think the book says you declare it when the unit is hit, not when it is targeted like jink, but I'm not sure since Dark Angels can't go to ground so I never use it. But if that is the case then Nova wouldn't apply to go to ground so your unit can if the blast scatters on to it.

 

Honestly relying on scatter is quite the gamble anyway and I think the Nova ruling is better than nothing, but no one at my new shop uses it. So I have to settle for the large blast targeting one biker in the corner of a unit and getting screwed out of jinking on the unit that is actually taking more hits

[elphilo]

BTW that isn't just a NOVA call. The ITC (which is used by a lot of events now a days) also uses that rule call.

 

The problem boils down to how Jink is worded. That you declare jinking before any of the dice are rolled. And by saying you can jink after the scatter you're violating that rules. At least that's the interpretation. Is it right? Only GW knows. Will they tell us? Probably not.

 

Also Going to Ground isn't nerfed as you get to decided that after all to hit and wound rolls are made.

[Lysere]

You can't try to dodge a tank shell if you didn't know it was gonna hit you instead of the squad the tank was actually aimed at. That's how I think of it.

 

Also the wording for Jink requires you to declare it before any to hit rolls are made with the shooting attack. Once a blast scatters it is well past the time for declaring jink.

[shabbadoo]

You can't try to dodge a tank shell if you didn't know it was gonna hit you instead of the squad the tank was actually aimed at. That's how I think of it.

I like to think that if a blast weapon of DOOM is pointed in your general direction, you might just perhaps be even slightly aware of it, let alone be wary of it.

"No need to take evasive maneuvers. That Vindicator is targeting a postion twenty feet away from us. We're totally good, bro. Totally. Hey, what's the arrow pointing in our direction on that white die mean?"

- Final vox transmission of Brother Anziel, Dark Shroud Pilot

[Master Avoghai]

If on the other hand if you SCATTER off the target unit and onto the unit next to them (We'll call that a MISS), then the unit you actually HIT (the unit next to the one you targeted) DOES NOT get to take any voluntary saves, like going to ground or jinking.

By denying those saves you make blast weapons MORE likely to cause damage to units when they MISS.

Whereas ALL other weapons are LESS likely to cause damage to units when they MISS.

I just want to know what your justification is for that counter intutitive event.

Shouldn't a MISS be less likely to cause damage than a HIT?

But actually they DID cause less damages than a hit If you consider the damage on the targeted unit and only on this one.

 

You have lots of situations like that, just like assault units trying not causing much damages on the target units the turn they charge, so that the target unit stay locked in combat : I had an opponent trying to charge a scout squad with a hive tyrant and choosing to smash rather than using all his attacks. The following turn (mine), he chose to use all its attacks, wiped out the entire squad and was free to move during his turn...

 

That's a game trying to stick to reality, not reality.

[DanPesci]

Shouldn't a MISS be less likely to cause damage than a HIT?

what are the chances of success if you actually planned to hit a unit with a blast marker by purposefully scattering off another unit though?

Not good thats what

But sometimes getting a lucky scatter is one of the 'bonuses' of taking blast weapons over say a standard heavy (3) weapon. But even if you get lucky with a big scatter, the unit you're actually wanting to die (ie the one you are aiming at in the first place) is taking less damage.