Sky Hammer Annilation Force with BA?

[Duke Danse Macabre]

This is more a rules check than anything but Can the Sky Hammer Annilation force be used with BA?

 

BA would be the main force and the SHAF would be an allied formation.

Its all seems good to me but I just want to check.

 

I play allot of marine armies including BA but I would love to have Mephiston riding in with my Sternguard in such a force. :D

[Jolemai]

The short answer is yes.

 

Just remember that the SHAF will use whatever Chapter Tactics you give it from C:SM, and not anything from C:BA.

 

 

***

 

There's no such thing as an allied formation. You can take any formation no matter the Faction; the only thing that you have to take into account is how the Factions interact with each other due to the allied rules. So it's quite legal to take a BSF, mayhem pack and aspect shrine in one list.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Sadly I'm aware of that but it seems a price we have to pay to have our chapter work like it should. :P

[Charlo]

There is debate as to whether an attached IC can charge with the assault Marines, if so maybe attack Dante to some of them ;)

[BloodTzar]

Trying to understand;

 

can I ally my BA with Red Scorps (obj sec - HQ, 2 Troops, 1 of each) that has a formation in it? 

 

Basically geting BA force, with RS HQ with 2troops let say and Anihilation force that is from RS?

 

Thank you

~BT

[Charlo]

You don't even need the CAD of Red Scorpions :)

 

Formations are entirely separate to the rest of your army. Like a little army in itself. Sure you can give them Red Scorp chapter tactics, but they don't take up slots in you're cad.

 

You could have a BA army, RS CAD and the SHAF, or any one of them, or any two.

[Rommel44]

I actually run this formation on a daily basis so I can give you the run down on about it, as well as feedback on games I have played with this. To start off:

 

* You Can Only Use Chapter Tactics from the new Space Marine Codex and the FW Chapter Tactics for this formation. No BA, DA, or SW rules at all. Best one I have experienced is the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic to use the Devestator Doctrine when they first come down.

 

* You Cannot Attach Any IC to the Formation Period. Clearly states that the only units allowed are the units listed in the formation itself that can be taken. Plus, no way BA Characters can be used in the formation as they have a different Chapter Tactic then the Marines in the formation, so therefore it's illegal.

 

* While effective it can be very expensive, especially when you give the Devestators Grav Cannons. In my personal opinion, Devestator Squads should always 10x man, and I javelin only ever fielded mine with Grav-Cannons or Multi-Meltas. Sentinels of Terra can get away with running Hvy. Bolters but I haven't tried it. As for the Assault Marines, anywhere from 7x to 10x man strong, and I keep mine CC oriented.

 

If you have any questions please let me know. More then willing to help.

[captainblow]

* You Cannot Attach Any IC to the Formation Period. Clearly states that the only units allowed are the units listed in the formation itself that can be taken. Plus, no way BA Characters can be used in the formation as they have a different Chapter Tactic then the Marines in the formation, so therefore it's illegal.

I would disagree, the Blood Angels don't actually have a "Chapter Tactic". However if you can attach IC's to the formation is up for debate in my opinion.

[BloodTzar]

One question that just got me thinking;

 

CAN I use the DP's that are part of the fromation to deliver also a different unit with the formation (assuming I do use 5 man devs = 5 more slots in the DP, and I use another Battle-bro's) Would it be possible to get there another unit ?

 

Thanks

~BT

[Silverson]

Yea blood angels don't actually have chapter tactics so I disagree that it would stop an independent character of ours joining the unit. But the fact our characters can not charge on the turn they arrive via deep strike would stop the assault squad charging in my opinion

[Jolemai]

One question that just got me thinking;

 

CAN I use the DP's that are part of the fromation to deliver also a different unit with the formation (assuming I do use 5 man devs = 5 more slots in the DP, and I use another Battle-bro's) Would it be possible to get there another unit ?

 

Thanks

~BT

 

No.

 

Only one unit may enter a transport at a time unless the rules specifically say otherwise (i.e a Thunderhawk). The exception to this is a unit which has split into Combat Squads or by attaching an IC.

 

However, as pointed out above, adding an IC to a Formation is currently up for debate.

[Karhedron]

But the fact our characters can not charge on the turn they arrive via deep strike would stop the assault squad charging in my opinion

I agree. In spite of the linguistic gymnastics some people have gone through to try and convince themselves otherwise, I don't think the formation's special rules "spill over" onto an attached IC.

 

In my experience, GW does not tend to deliberately hide easter eggs in their rules. If you have to go through a long-winded justification to explain why something is allowed, then the chances are it was not meant to be.

[Rommel44]

True the BA don't have a Chapter Tactic but they CANNOT join a unit or formation from the regular SM Codex because they have there own set of special rules and Chapter Tactics, and that is not including the BA IC special rules, which they cannot give to the Squad from a different Chapter.

 

To put it bluntly, unless the formation states that a Special Character or and IC can join, Only The Units In the Formation can be taken in that formation. NO EXCEPTIONS. Too many people try to convince others that they can, but it obvious you cannot. There are some formations that clearly state that you can include IC or Special Characters, but in the case of the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, you can only take units listed in the formation. Don't see how that's hard to understand.

[Rommel44]

 

* You Cannot Attach Any IC to the Formation Period. Clearly states that the only units allowed are the units listed in the formation itself that can be taken. Plus, no way BA Characters can be used in the formation as they have a different Chapter Tactic then the Marines in the formation, so therefore it's illegal.

I would disagree, the Blood Angels don't actually have a "Chapter Tactic". However if you can attach IC's to the formation is up for debate in my opinion.

Please explain how a BA Special or IC with BA rules can join a unit in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, which is a Regular SM Formation Only. You cannot combine two sets of special rules from Different SM Chapters into one unit.

[Jorre]

 

 

* You Cannot Attach Any IC to the Formation Period. Clearly states that the only units allowed are the units listed in the formation itself that can be taken. Plus, no way BA Characters can be used in the formation as they have a different Chapter Tactic then the Marines in the formation, so therefore it's illegal.

I would disagree, the Blood Angels don't actually have a "Chapter Tactic". However if you can attach IC's to the formation is up for debate in my opinion.

Please explain how a BA Special or IC with BA rules can join a unit in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, which is a Regular SM Formation Only. You cannot combine two sets of special rules from Different SM Chapters into one unit.

From my understanding Independent characters can join an allied unit. Even if that unit is in a formation from another chapter.

 

I think the real issue is when can they join?

 

Obviously a BA character does not have access to the special rules of this formation so they would loose there deep strike charge rule!

 

I would suggest that since Ba do not have chapter tactics that there is no conflicting chapter tactics rules in the squad so nobody looses any rules. If it was imperial fists mixing with ultramarines there is a conflict there and they would looses there rules.

 

Its been a while since i looked at the rules for this formation, from memory they get a rule that allows them to deploy on turn one?? If so i would suggest they loose that rule to. Meaning there would be very little benefit to deploying this formation with any BA character.

 

However this does not prevent any ba character from joining any squad in this formation later in the game

[Rommel44]

Last time I checked you can only use units in the formation that are allowed and no IC can join the unit at the start. During the game I'm not 100% sure but I don't see why you would even want to add a character to the formation.

 

This formation can come down either turn 1 or turn 2, and it all comes down at the same time. You just have to declare when you are deploying them, and it works great with a Drop Pod list. Probably the best type of list to run with them, but I have seen mechanized work out ok with this formation.

[Morticon]

Theres absolutely nothing and no rule preventing you from adding an IC to a unit in a formation.  

 

You're conflating buying/adding an IC within the specific formation with attaching an IC to the formation.  

Nothing wrong with this at all.

Not a debate or a grey area - there is nothing to even suggest this is not allowed.  

 

A skyhammer formation is a set of units in your army. Your ICs that are battle bros may join units in you army.  End of story. 

 

This does not, however mean you get any benefits from joining.

[Rommel44]

Just talked with a mate of mine and that is correct. I misunderstood the rule little bit so I apologize for that, you can join an independent character with the formation however that character could not benefit from the formations rules as it is for only those units in the formation specified.

 

Plus why would you do that anyways? As soon as the IC joins, that character can only use the Special Rules he has. He cant benefit from the formations special rules as well, which in this case, if he joins one of the Assault Squads, they will not be able to charge the turn they come down. But in this case, I do not believe a Blood Angel special character or independent character can join the Skyhammer Formation as it is a Space Marine codex formation only. BA Characters have there own set of rules and such so wouldn't that be conflicting?

[Lord Blackwood]

Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join units that contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. They can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful multi-character unit! Joining and Leaving a Unit An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

 

Games Workshop Ltd. Warhammer 40,000 (Kindle Locations 11240-11244). 

if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

 

Games Workshop Ltd. Warhammer 40,000 (Kindle Location 11244). 


The Units that make up the Skyhammer annihilation  force  are units in  your overall army therefore you may attach an IC that is a battlebrother to one of those units.   In the case of the devastator squads there would have to be enough space for that IC in thier drop pod ,  in the case of the  Assault marines the attached character would need  to have the deepstrike special rule. 

This follows the same principle as attaching a Space Wolves wolf lord  in terminator armor to say a unit of allied  Terminators because they are battle brothers when you are setting up to deploy you inform your opponent that Wolf Lord X  is joining Terminator Squad  Z from  your Allied detachment  and they are starting the game in reserves 


Alternatively if members of the skyhammer formation are on the board any IC can join those units simply by moving into unit coherency with that particular unit during the movement phase. 

In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase.

 

Games Workshop Ltd. Warhammer 40,000 (Kindle Locations 11245-11246). 

 

All that being said , if a Deep Striking  IC  joins one of the skyhammers assault units they would not be able to assault that turn because a model in the unit would not have that rule making them ineligible to do so. They would retain their other  bonuses as they  function  irregardless of a model in the unit not having those bonuses.  HOWEVER the attached IC would not be able to take advantage of thier bonuses from  the formation since the rules of the formation do not state that they  themselves transfer. 
 

Special Rules When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

 

Games Workshop Ltd. Warhammer 40,000 (Kindle Locations 11263-11267) .


In conclusion yes you may attach an IC  to the skyhammer assault marines 
If you  do that unit of assault marines cannot charge the turn it arives 
The IC dose not gain the bonuses from the formation 
The assault marines do not lose thier bonuses they simply do not apply to the IC 
Any rules the IC have that DO  pass on  ( stubbourn , fearless )  Do pass on to the assault marines 

Furthermore , the rule about chapter tactics specifically references just that CHAPTER TACTICS 
Space Wolves 
Dark Angels 
Blood Angels
Grey Knights 

do not have chapter tactics they  simply have special rules based on thier factions until  GW changes them to have the Chapter Tactics rule then there is no reason as to why a Space Wolves character would not  retain his acute senses and counter attack and why say an Iron Hands unit with a Space Wolves , Blood Angels , Dark Angels or Grey Knights IC attached would lose thier Feel no pain from  thier chapter tactic because there are no two conflicting CHAPTER TACTICS  in the squad 

[Jolemai]

Rommel, do you feel that the Adeptus Astartes Stormwing and the Armoured Vanguard Squadron (Warzone Damocles) can't take squads?

[Cronhour]

Have to double check the rule book (as I'm at work) but when an ic joins a unit he becomes part of that unit for rules purposes. Unless there is a rule in the strike force forbidding it he shouldn't hinder the assault Marines from charging.

[Karhedron]

Have to double check the rule book (as I'm at work) but when an ic joins a unit he becomes part of that unit for rules purposes. Unless there is a rule in the strike force forbidding it he shouldn't hinder the assault Marines from charging.

 

And this is why the argument is all over the Net.

 

My take is that he becomes part of the unit for rules purposes. And those rules state that Special Rules do not transfer from unit to character (and vice versa) unless the special rule itself explicitly says so.

 

Remember that 40K is a permissive rule set. You need a rule to allow you to do something rather than a rule to prevent you from doing it.

[Klazien]

Honestly asking, I feel there a different way to look at this , with the IC not being allow to assault after arriving I get. But would that apply to pick turn 1 or 2 to arrive as well or vice versa?

 

I bring this up because I cant see getting one and not the other?

 

Im on the side of attaching IC is a no go but I dont worry how people interpret the rule I mostly play for fun.

[Lysere]

 

Have to double check the rule book (as I'm at work) but when an ic joins a unit he becomes part of that unit for rules purposes. Unless there is a rule in the strike force forbidding it he shouldn't hinder the assault Marines from charging.

 

And this is why the argument is all over the Net.

 

My take is that he becomes part of the unit for rules purposes. And those rules state that Special Rules do not transfer from unit to character (and vice versa) unless the special rule itself explicitly says so.

 

Remember that 40K is a permissive rule set. You need a rule to allow you to do something rather than a rule to prevent you from doing it.

 

 

True, this is why the Vanguard Veteran rule transfers to characters while the assault marine rule in the Skyhammer does not.

 

The Vanguard rule says that the unit benefits from the rule, not just models with the rule. Attached characters are part of the unit and therefore benefit. The skyhammer says the assault squads may assault the turn they arrive which doesn't necessarily mean the entire unit may assault the turn it arrives making it at least somewhat debatable.

 

Having tried the Skyhammer once I'm not really worried about which way it should be ruled since I see little reason to run it again, and if I do I doubt a character would really help the assault squads make a real impact.

[Rommel44]

Agreed, the whole purpose of the Skyhammer Annihilation Force Assault Marines is for them to be able to get a charge off turn 1, so the question then becomes why would you want to put a IC in the unit and have them lose the ability to charge as soon as they come down.

 

Besides that, how do you plan to run your Devestator Squads?