Mabin Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Hey everyone I am a VET SM player and after reading the first to books from the Uriel Ventris Chronicles I have decided to get some allies for my own SM chapter (Spartans). So my question is, if i want some units to support my SM as well as stand alone AM army what do i HAVE to get? what is the must have unit if I want to be some sort of competative as well? my thoughts to a great start is: 1 Cadian defence force (already bought) i just do not know which LR but I am leaning to Vanquisher, and HWT I am leaning to AC for cheap S7 shots - but i dont know about number of Voxcaster for the platoon - or if i should choose Grenade launchers or flamers for normal squads? 1 Vendetta 1 Wyvern 1 Agies line with quad gun (to be manned by Platoon commander and his squad) 1 Vet squad with 2 plasma rifles to be inside the Chimera from the cadian defence force what are your thoughts? "Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, "I am proud to live - I am proud to die". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaweda Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I'm also interested in this exact thing. Been Space Marines so long that I am having a little struggle trying to figure out which way to turn to start my Guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4129978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
steellegionnaire85 Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Wyverns do better in twos and threes. They are guaranteed to wipe a unit a turn in this configuration. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4129989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatespinner Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 In order to play anything over 1000 pts or so, you're going to want at least 2 Wyverns like steellegionnaire mentioned and personally I'd recommend at least 2 Leman Russ tanks (one Vanquisher, one Punisher... or magnetize for more options) with Tank Commander Pask. While it's probably a little point-heavy to use in an allied detachment, if you want them as a standalone, Pask is amazing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismogrendel Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I'd say make sure you follow that magnetize thread so you can run various LR tanks. My favorites codex choices are: HQ: Yarrick is awesome and has a great model. Works well with a horde of lasgun troops. Also he is BS5 so if you are planning to buy an Aegis... he can shoot that pretty well. Tanks Pask in Punisher Executioner squadmate & Bare bones no upgrades / no sponsons Russ 2x Wyverns is pretty fun. I was doing their barrage shots wrong last time and it still put out some hurt. Can't wait to properly try these out. Troops: The main thing that made me really enjoy my guard is building up my foot soldiers. Last game I ran a 50 man platoon and a blob of 50 conscripts. Not sure if you are aiming for a horde army but +/-100 lasgun guardsmen is a good target. Kitbash or buy a ministorum priest model as well. Vet squad - 3 meltaguns - riding in Chimera I run at least one of these each game, great anti tank threat. Chimera can drop off the men and drive away to cap an objective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommissarHughes Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 First off, platoon commanders are not HQ choices. Everything under infantry platoon build up to one troops choice, meaning you can have up to 6 pantaloons in a single primary detachment. You'll need another tank to do a tank commander, a commissar to become a lord, or another comm squad to make a company command. Or, you could run your current troops as veterans and make the platoon comm a company comm, since you buy veterans as individual squads. Tank commanders have bs4, so they're typically given the shooty Russes like Vanquishers or Punishers but must be in a squadron with at least on other tank. You take one of these if you want either an unholy amount of firepower or you're pressed for heavy support slots if not both. But in my experience, they have minimal survivability because he has no defense against melee. You never ever leave tanks without infantry support, those big guns and thick front armor may as well be smoke for all the good they'll do if left in the open. The guardsmen are cheap enough and the main gun is high enough that you can bubble wrap the front to protect from charges. Running this guy, you'll learn to hate deep striking suicide melta. Lord Commissars are best placed into blob squads because they’re ld9, stubborn, and basically makes any squad he’s in fearless at the cost of one measly guardsmen. If you’re not getting Yarric and want him as your HQ, go all the way with relics because they can be pretty freaking powerful. 5 points for an ap4 s5 bolt pistol, 30 points for the death mask of Ollanius Pious (4+ invul, fear, and it will not die), and the s+1 master crafted power sword (if you don’t give him a power fist). Keep him far away from s6 attacks though, he’s t3 and will suffer instant death. Yarric is amazing for many reasons, but that t4 is close to the top. Keep in mind however, if you have a model with the senior officer rule in your detachment, a lord commissar can never be your warlord due to chain of command. Company commanders are my warlord of choice, since they provide so much to infantry. All officers in the guard are buff givers, that’s why they’re there. Keep them within 12” of guardsmen wherever possible and make sure everyone has vox casters so you can re-roll failed orders with guard’s lower leadership. I make sure all platoon and company comm squads have medkits for feel no pain and try to give them all chimeras for survivability, mobility, and measuring order distances from the sizeable chimera hull rather than an officers base. While you can take up to four special weapons, it doesn’t work the way I run them because mine are holding back and trying to stay safe to keep first rank second rank going as long as possible (gives all las guns an extra shot and starts giving stupid amounts of dice to blob squads). For the company comm squad specifically, I usually give them an astropath (25 point psyker that can only roll on telepathy) and a master of the fleet (ld check and if he passes add 1 to your reserve or subtract one to your opponents) and sometimes a plasma gun just in case. For the commander himself, I almost always give him the 4++ mask and some kind of weapon (though exactly what may vary dependent on my mood and how many points I have to play with). I also never give that squad a commissar, there’s a chance if they fail leadership that he’ll kill the warlord on a 1 or 2. I like to keep him in the very back with the heavy weapons teams because he can give two of them tank and monster hunters or ignores cover. Stick a primaris psyker with divination for twin linked back there too and they’re unstoppable. For the heavy weapons Auto cannons are good all round choices, but you must already know that. However, you always need at least two squads of them. Your opponent will target them with s6+ shots right off the bat because they’re such a threat, redundancy is a must if you intend to use them past turn one. All their guns are good, but stay away from mortars, Wyverns do the same job but so much better. Speaking of Wyverns, you don’t need them but they’re absolute monsters at killing infantry. They basically render obsolete heavy bolters, mortars, and flamers with one vehicle. Any opponent that does not take full advantage of the 2” max coherency will take 10+ wounds from this beast. Its s4 ap6, but it has shred, twin linked, and ignores cover on a 48” small blast barrage that fires four shots if it doesn’t move. At 65 points, its only disadvantage is that it takes up a heavy support slot that’s highly contested by your tanks and other artillery. I chose guard for the tanks, so you’ll probably find it easier to let them go. Just keep in mind that they’re open topped and don’t have the armor to eat dedicated anti armor. Your troops are cheap scoring units if you don’t want to run a lot of them, or you can throw more bodies on the board than orks. Chimeras are fantastic APCs, Tauroxes… read this if you want to know more: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311465-tauroxes-are-they-any-good/ A typical guard squad is about as flexible as a tactical squad, if not as good individually, there’s enough freedom with guardsmen that I can’t say one way or another is the best way to run them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truesight Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 If you want to use Guard as allies for Space Marines I'd try and get the things that are unique to guard. We do three things really well. Lots of infantry, heavy tanks, and artillery. So start there, get some Russes, a blob squad, and some wyverns. Also don't forget that guard can be cheap! A 20 man unit of conscripts with a priest won't kill much, but they will hold objectives like nothing else, a steal at 85 points, and a good way for space marines to bulk out numbers. If you want optimal, Pask in a punisher is where it's at. Here is a 1000 point allied detachment for a start: HQ Knight Commander Pask in a Punisher, with sponson multi-meltas and lascannon Bodyguard Executioner with Plasma sponsons and heavy bolter Troops: Infantry Platoon Infantry Squad Autocannon, Commissar Infantry Squad Autocannon, Flamer Infantry Squad Autocannon Flamer 20 Conscripts with Ministorum Priest Platoon Command Squad 2 Flamers Fast Attack Vendetta Heavy Support Wyvern Alot of killing power and a good amount of infantry for objectives, it should slot into any other list well and serve as a basis for its own army. Good luck and welcome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 You've come to the right place :tu: "Have" is a bit of a strong term but you'll always need Guardsmen in much the same way you need Marines. You can then make either Platoons or Vets from them. For allying purposes you'll want Platoons, as to support your Marine's eliteness you'll want the numbers of the Platoon. You can get a lot of troops in a Platoon too so you won't be short of them :) Autocannons are good, and flamers/grenade launchers are nice and cheap for BS3 Guardsmen so these are good choices. Magnetising the Russ kit is a good idea, as it has many options you'll want to try (it's very easy to magnetise the Demolisher kit), and as mentioned Wyverns are great in pairs. Three is a crowd though as their shooting attack takes forever to resolve and is usually OTT for any one unit! The best thing to do is to figure out what/how you'd like to play. Seems like you're looking for a more balanced or hybrid force with a bit of everything just be aware that this is the quickest path to "Guard armies are never complete" ;) Numbers and fire power is how Guard wins, keep that in mind and you won't go far wrong :) Last but not least, what colour scheme are you going for? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabin Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 You've come to the right place "Have" is a bit of a strong term but you'll always need Guardsmen in much the same way you need Marines. You can then make either Platoons or Vets from them. For allying purposes you'll want Platoons, as to support your Marine's eliteness you'll want the numbers of the Platoon. You can get a lot of troops in a Platoon too so you won't be short of them Autocannons are good, and flamers/grenade launchers are nice and cheap for BS3 Guardsmen so these are good choices. Magnetising the Russ kit is a good idea, as it has many options you'll want to try (it's very easy to magnetise the Demolisher kit), and as mentioned Wyverns are great in pairs. Three is a crowd though as their shooting attack takes forever to resolve and is usually OTT for any one unit! The best thing to do is to figure out what/how you'd like to play. Seems like you're looking for a more balanced or hybrid force with a bit of everything just be aware that this is the quickest path to "Guard armies are never complete" Numbers and fire power is how Guard wins, keep that in mind and you won't go far wrong Last but not least, what colour scheme are you going for? awesome! you catch my drift! those are my thoughts exactly and for colours? well my Spartans (SM Chapter) comes from a desert planet and have a dark red power armor scheme, so i want the guards to have some sort of desert camo to fit the planets environment and still i want them to have some sort of link to the SM chapter on the planet - so i was thinking some desert fatigues ( some different tan and desert color, but i dont know what to do with the flak armor parts and the helmet just yet..) and such with maybe just one red shoulderpad and for vehicles the same desert colour but one sponson with a dark red color as well - well at least that is my initial thought! I want to be able to link my Guard with my SM chapter in a simple way and i think the dark red will stand out great! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabin Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 If you want to use Guard as allies for Space Marines I'd try and get the things that are unique to guard. We do three things really well. Lots of infantry, heavy tanks, and artillery. So start there, get some Russes, a blob squad, and some wyverns. Also don't forget that guard can be cheap! A 20 man unit of conscripts with a priest won't kill much, but they will hold objectives like nothing else, a steal at 85 points, and a good way for space marines to bulk out numbers. If you want optimal, Pask in a punisher is where it's at. Here is a 1000 point allied detachment for a start: HQ Knight Commander Pask in a Punisher, with sponson multi-meltas and lascannon Bodyguard Executioner with Plasma sponsons and heavy bolter Troops: Infantry Platoon Infantry Squad Autocannon, Commissar Infantry Squad Autocannon, Flamer Infantry Squad Autocannon Flamer 20 Conscripts with Ministorum Priest Platoon Command Squad 2 Flamers Fast Attack Vendetta Heavy Support Wyvern Alot of killing power and a good amount of infantry for objectives, it should slot into any other list well and serve as a basis for its own army. Good luck and welcome! but what about the mobility of the squads when i out the AC in the normal squads? and what about Vox casters? great with the flamers ... i just could not decide whether to take flamers or grenade launchers! thank you! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truesight Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 but what about the mobility of the squads when i out the AC in the normal squads?and what about Vox casters? great with the flamers ... i just could not decide whether to take flamers or grenade launchers! thank you! The autocannon platoon is best used combined into one squad, sitting stationary and putting out shots from a deployment objective. With the commissars stern gaze they won't run, and have good firepower. Vox casters have their place, but are best used when you have a Company Command squad, in that list the platoon command squad will be in the vendetta so will not be able to give orders. The commissar confers leadership 9 so orders are already very reliable. If you do use vox's remember you only have to buy one per combined squad, as well as one for the command squads. Both flamers and grenade launchers are great, try both honestly. I prefer flamers myself, as it allows my platoons to really make a mess of enemy infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Desert schemes are cool, plus there is a lot of different ways you can do one. What about a lighter fatigue colour with a darker, more tan armour? A dark maroon red would look nice on shoulder pads, or even on all the armour if you wanted more contrast. Good for attacking with weathering too! I look forward to seeing your Guard, don't forget you can create a WIP topic here to document your progress, share fluff and get help :tu: Flamers are my preferred special weapon for Guardsmen. Stronger than lasguns and ignores BS3, makes a cheap infantry squad fairly capable at tackling enemy infantry - and of course they never do this alone ;) Voxes are good if you have enough infantry to make orders a part of your strategies, as the re-roll makes them much more reliable. However they are not essential equipment by any stretch especially if you're light on troops and/or don't have a Company Command Squad (who have the best orders). For allying Guard mobility is less of an issue. Your main army will be taking the fight to the enemy, let the Guard hold friendly objectives and provide fire support. If you get desperate you can always do a bit of running! For example as much as I love Chimeras my infantry squads will usually be on foot. That may seem odd to a Marine player but I will have several of them with flamers that can either advance on the enemy or stay and protect other units. If I need to move, mobility is less of a concern as I'd likely have a unit close enough to get there in time :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabin Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Desert schemes are cool, plus there is a lot of different ways you can do one. What about a lighter fatigue colour with a darker, more tan armour? A dark maroon red would look nice on shoulder pads, or even on all the armour if you wanted more contrast. Good for attacking with weathering too! I look forward to seeing your Guard, don't forget you can create a WIP topic here to document your progress, share fluff and get help but what color should the fatigues be then if the armour is the normal tan? i was thinking the fatigues should be the same tan as a cadia model but then i dont know about the armor? i know the armor i will make wil be the tan of cadia but without all the green - so the question is what to do with the flak armor of the infantry - one red shoulderguard and tan fatigues and then? hmm... I am all new to forum what is a WIP? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommissarHughes Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 but what color should the fatigues be then if the armour is the normal tan? i was thinking the fatigues should be the same tan as a cadia model but then i dont know about the armor? i know the armor i will make wil be the tan of cadia but without all the green - so the question is what to do with the flak armor of the infantry - one red shoulderguard and tan fatigues and then? hmm... I am all new to forum what is a WIP? You could try a base of rakarth flesh for a cream color. Maybe a seriphim sephia wash and pallid wych flesh highlights. or if you don't want that much effort into guardsmen flack armor, rakarth base, drybrush either longbeard gray or terminatus stone, ant finish it off with the sephia wash. WIP=work in progress Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truesight Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 but what color should the fatigues be then if the armour is the normal tan? i was thinking the fatigues should be the same tan as a cadia model but then i dont know about the armor? i know the armor i will make wil be the tan of cadia but without all the green - so the question is what to do with the flak armor of the infantry - one red shoulderguard and tan fatigues and then? hmm... I am all new to forum what is a WIP? WiP is Work in Progress, give us a thread to show us how your army is doing :). For your colour scheme, this website may be helpful: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/igpbeta2.php? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 The fatigues could be your usual desert DPM style yellow. Coffee and elmo have good examples in their WIPs, and the tan was just a suggestion you could have another yellow. Steel Legion Drab is a nice colour along with Baneblade Brown, experiment with the painter as True linked and see what you like :) A different coloured shoulder pad works well for Guard, especially on the left for helping the regimental number stand out some. Red would also be good for berets it you use some (and who wouldn't want to?). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 For camo, I actually based mine on multicam, since that's what a lot of modern day NATO Militaries are going to. US, GB, Australia, Poland. As for must haves, like everyone else said, it really depends on what you want the guard detachment to do. I'm a stormtrooper guy, I run lots of them. I have only recently branched out into the larger world of the guard. Infantry platoons are great, because they can offer a ton of bodies. All up you can see (by my calculations) 144 men in a single troops choice, and you can do that 6 times. Yes it's expensive, but it showcases the potential the guard have to overwhelm an opponent with numbers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabin Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 You guys are awesome, thank you for all the help - i will see to get that WIP going as soon as i pick up my miniatures! ... and berets? that sounds awesome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 You can get a beret head in the Catachan command squad kit, and a load in the Scion box (though they will need a bit of alteration to fit Guardsmen) or you can make your own as I did :) Whatever you decide I look forward to seeing your army take shape :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabin Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 is there an easy way to give guard sergeants bolters? or should I even bother? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommissarHughes Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 is there an easy way to give guard sergeants bolters? or should I even bother? It's 1 point to give them either a bolt pistol or bolt gun, I've never done it unless I have a few odd points left over Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 In order to play anything over 1000 pts or so, you're going to want at least 2 Wyverns like steellegionnaire mentioned and personally I'd recommend at least 2 Leman Russ tanks (one Vanquisher, one Punisher... or magnetize for more options) with Tank Commander Pask. While it's probably a little point-heavy to use in an allied detachment, if you want them as a standalone, Pask is amazing. If you take wyverns at all, definitely take two. One will do damage, two will kill, three is honestly a waste of points if you're not shooting at a blob of conscripts or a mob of 30 boyz. But, honestly, they're kind of an "easy button." I would leave them out of any non-tournament list. In a tourney, I'll happily pile a pask squadron on top of a skyshield with a wyvern squadron behind them for maximum beard length, but in an everyday list, Pask deploys at ground level and the wyverns stay home. Pask is amazing! I like to put him in a vanquisher. The more popular choice is a punisher, and it does math-hammer out to be killier...but at the expense of advancing into the teeth of enemy defenses in order to get his 24" gun in range. Punisher Pask kills, kills, kills without mercy, but in the end, he also dies. Pasquisher, on the other hand, makes maximum use of long range, auto-penning AV14 from so far away the enemy can't shoot back. Great way to preserve that warlord VP, especially when you're pushing heavy support demolishers upfield to force the enemy to deal with a near threat and ignore Pask. I even get deepstriking melta to land near my demolishers, on the enemy half of the board, instead of landing by pask in the corner of my deployment zone...Killing 300 points worth of enemy stuff without dying is in my mind better than killing 600 points and giving up not only the ~400 point cost of Pask+wingman, but also the warlord point. I would start with two or three veteran squads with chimeras and pask as my HQ. That gets you playing pretty quick, versus the labor of painting up 25 guardsmen, minimum, per troops choice, and chimeras are just win for the points. Run them empty to double your super-scorers while the vets camp near objectives from cover and engage with a BS4 autocannon. Also, empty chimeras draw a little less fire than full ones, and spamming AV12+ vehicles till the cows come home is a really good tactic against all comers...all comers except necrons, I mean. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Yeah, don't go vehicle heavy against Necrons, they will eat your everything for lunch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4130945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Sergeant bolters are good for spending points that can't go into anything else. Veteran squad sergeants are a good call for them, followed by command squads :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4131232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I know I am the minority, but when points are tights, Leman Russ Sponsons are the first things I cut. They cost a lot of points and a lot of times only one can fire at a time due to positioning. Consider magnetizing them and try them out without first. Saving Sponsons on 3 tanks might give you another Wyvern Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311538-starting-am-army-how-to-outfit-what-to-get/#findComment-4131871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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