If You Could Publish An Official Errata/FAQ..

[SkimaskMohawk]

Remember too, you can also give Predators LasCannon turrets and take them in squadrons of 3, so I'm not sure that argument really holds up.

You can't, there's no option for the Las turret in 30k

 

 

 

 

 

Fix some primarches like Dorn, give Corax 4++and other.

 

Absolutely don't give him a 4++, it should be almost impossible to damage him with shooting in the first place if you're playing him properly and then you just do the -1 to hit if you're going against something that you can't shred in one round of combat. Corax rewards good tactics more than any other primarch; he doesn't need to be tanky

 

 

Exodus - preferred enemy (infantry), -2 to look out sir (just like vindicare)

 

You don't need this as opponents don't get LoS against him;

 

"may choose which enemy model in an enemy unit is hit rather than following the normal procedure for assigning hits and saves..." (bolded for emphasis)

 

The normal procedure allows for this and, comparing to precision shots, reinforces this;

 

"are allocated against a model...of your choice in the target unit...rather than following the normal rules for wound allocation. A character that has a Precision Shot Wound allocated to it can still make a Look Out, Sir roll"  (bolded again for emphasis)

 

TLDR: you don't get LoS vs Exodus

[DuskRaider]

I meant sponsons, sorry.

[1ncarnadine]

Most people seem to agree that regular Vindicators in squadrons would be a welcome change, but that squadrons of Las Vindis are a bit much.

 

What about Vindicators in squadrons, 1-3, with a 0-1 cap on how many can be Las Vindis in the squadron?

[Moonstalker]

Most people seem to agree that regular Vindicators in squadrons would be a welcome change, but that squadrons of Las Vindis are a bit much.

 

What about Vindicators in squadrons, 1-3, with a 0-1 cap on how many can be Las Vindis in the squadron?

 

If I remember right, SoH used Vindi's more than any other Legion.  Perhaps pure Vindicator squadrons could be reserved for them, to make their LA rules a little more defining.

[WolfOfHorus]

Your mixing that up with Iron Warriors.

[Moonstalker]

Your mixing that up with Iron Warriors.

Actually, going by the fluff blurb in Massacre on the Vindicator's page, I'm not. Seems SoH and Iron Hands used them more extensively than any of the other legions.

But it's not like the Iron Hands need any more toys to make them special.

[LostAlone]

I think a lot of the problem in the 30k era is that the lists are written to try and accommodate all of the potential rites and characters and the result is kinda a mess. Trying to accommodate all terminator, all drop pod, all deep strike and all Land Raider builds results in basically a whole other axis of balance alongside points and FOC and that doesn't even start to talk about legion specific rites which just make things horribly complicated.

 

I think the only real way to create real balance would be to make every Rite a mini army list and re-cost and re-squadron whatever feels like it needs fixing. For example, I'm totally ok with any rite that has one HS slot being able to take a couple of vindis in a squadron to fill it. That's fine, I don't think anyone would suggest that's a problem. I do have a problem with seeing nine vindicators across the table from me though, with space for devastators or a Spartan too. That sucks. So just scrap this one army list with eighteen(!) sets of special rules being applied to it. Make eighteen separate lists that are internally balanced and work from there.

[DuskRaider]

Vindicator squadrons could be 0-1, to alleviate spam. Spartan spam already limits itself due to points alone. I'd love to field six Cataphractii Squads in Spartans, but considering it's around 850 points for a tooled out Terminator squad riding around in a Ceramite / Flare Spartan with Heavy Flamer, it's not a cheap option. I don't think they should be nerfed from using both forms of defense, because they're a ton of points I'm not spending on other aspects of the army, and most of my opponents field super heavies, which I sorely lack.

[LostAlone]

Vindicator squadrons could be 0-1, to alleviate spam. Spartan spam already limits itself due to points alone. I'd love to field six Cataphractii Squads in Spartans, but considering it's around 850 points for a tooled out Terminator squad riding around in a Ceramite / Flare Spartan with Heavy Flamer, it's not a cheap option. I don't think they should be nerfed from using both forms of defense, because they're a ton of points I'm not spending on other aspects of the army, and most of my opponents field super heavies, which I sorely lack.

 

I'm happy to admit that making flare shields and armored ceremite mutually exclusive is much more to do with my personal idea of fun than any absolute numerical idea of balance. I feel it's more fun and I'd like to see more meltaguns in the 30k game but I totally understand other people don't see it that way. It's very meta-game and group dependent as to what feels fun and interesting for your games. 

[Slips]

I'm actually happy that I dont have to fear melta guns (or even a Single Melta Shot) Insta-gibbing my 250+ Point Transport and that my 365 Points Spartan when Equipped with a Flare Shield and Armored Ceramite will actually survive to unload its 5-600+ point Cargo that I usually load it up with.

 

Totally subjective and all that but since only the Spartan can take both Upgrades, Costs a ton of points to field and is a pretty expensive monetary investment, that its fine as is. Very rare is the list fielding 2+ Spartans.

[DuskRaider]

I currently have one Spartan, but am doing a paint commission in exchange for 3 more and a Fellblade. I will be that guy, and I'm very excited about it.

[Slips]

I currently have one Spartan, but am doing a paint commission in exchange for 3 more and a Fellblade. I will be that guy, and I'm very excited about it.

Do it. Be That Guy! Own it!

 

...Just make sure that you have a way to deal with the Titans you'll undoubtedly face when you play in games where you can field all of that :P

[DuskRaider]

I'm sure I'll be totally outgunned, but when I started my Pride of the Legion army, I said I'd own it 100% and dadgum I will!

[Hesh Kadesh]

Most people seem to agree that regular Vindicators in squadrons would be a welcome change, but that squadrons of Las Vindis are a bit much.

 

What about Vindicators in squadrons, 1-3, with a 0-1 cap on how many can be Las Vindis in the squadron?

As long at Machine Spirit is limited to 1 per unit, no drama with VindiTD's in squadrons. Sure 9 TL S9 AP1 Ordnance Shots sounds filthy, (especially with Ultramarines with Guilliman giving Tank Hunter) but if they are limited to firing at 1 unit, unless they are facing Spartans or Super Heavies then there isn't much that they aren't overkill for. 1-3 will allow them to be taken in larger points games, because the way the limited FoC works (only 1 FOC+Allies Detachment RAW) means that you can be struggling to fill the points with an upscaled 3K list), while a designed 6k list can be bringing much heavier vehicles that fill the costs.

 

Sure the 'balance' isn't in the power of the TD, but really, I don't think there are many choices for your HS slots;

 

land Raider Squadrons; Squadron of 1-3, expensive for their firepower, troop transport only or Scouting Thudd Guns+MM's in a niche super resilient medium AT unit/morale bunker in low tier games

Sicaran; ap4 rending is kinda bad for MEQ meta, s7 bad when light vehicles (Rhinos) are rare asf or taken as an alphastrike Suicide Squad (grav/melta speeders) where their survival is unexpected ater nixing their initial target. Rend and S7 helps vs Artillery, but the primary targets of 4+ save bikes/jetbikes don't exist, and AV11 flyers just won't go into hover mode (if they exist) in 30k.

Sicaran Venator; unless facing Super Heavies (where you can Stun Lock, in which case they become Primary targets and are lucky to survive til turn 3), the Vindi TD is 'better' price pointed, and can fire more shots overall, making it better as well at sniping MC's. It is a 50/50 with a Vindi though currently, but with the 1-3 Vindis seeming to make them better, the Shock Pulse makes the Venator still an awesome choice.

Vindicators; just the normal kind. Only thing this has over a Typhon is that it isn't a LoW and if in a 1-3 can machine spirit 2 units. A typhons 7" ignores cover and longer range (30-48 effectively), with the heavier armour makes it an equal toss between 3 nude vindis and 1 AC's Typhon. I's still take the Typhon, as it eats Grav Rapiers for breakers.

Predators; no real AT options. Melta is one shot, so is Anti Terminator + Primus Medicae duty. Plasma is a catch all infantry murderer. AC is cheap S7 spam and better than a Sicaran unit. With 1-3 and command tank options, other than for looks, the Nude triple AC Pred squsdrons with Command Tank provide a nice little AC13 wall for 225pts while knocking away light targets, putting wounds on MC's on Artillery.

Scorpius; not sure you really need another MEQ killer in many lists. AP3 is a bit 'light'. It is an awesome bit of kit, and supplements CC lists thanks to barrage,,but again, there better options; plasma or melta preds which have a similar killing power, trading barrage for move and fire, or Plasma Deredeos which just eat Deep Strikers. 1-3 Scorpius however would become pretty ridiculous however, as it would invalidate nearly every other meq option and channel monobuild.

Fire Raptor; agai light vehicle and meq killer. Good at it, and resilient until it faces a Deredeo AC.

 

The point i'm trying to make here is that the Heavy Slots all have really fun units to use, but the role they provide are rarely necessary to the functioning of a powerful list (mostly, that comes from your elites, fast attack and lords of war imho). But also, what is missing is a tank killing unit. At the minute, the only tank killer in the list are the Grav Rapiers (and short of Drop Pod Lists, I don't leave home without 2x3 units and a Deredeo AC as the bare minimum in a list). 1-3 vindis (with Machine Spirit limited to 1 per unit, 155 is a lot of points still) is a decent unit.

 

I have tried it, and it changes the game a fair bit. Be interesting to see what a gunline of 2x3 Vindi TD's could do; can kill 4 tanks a turn for 830pts, which is when compared to a Warhound puts it in perspective.

[LostAlone]

I'm sure I'll be totally outgunned, but when I started my Pride of the Legion army, I said I'd own it 100% and dadgum I will!

More power to you To be honest, I'm actually happier with you playing that list than just a single deathstar in a smaller game. I'm all about goofy fluffy lists that lead to fun and interesting games and a hyper-elite very inflexible terminator force fits into that pretty well. In those big games Spartans are much more forgivable all around.

I'm actually happy that I dont have to fear melta guns (or even a Single Melta Shot) Insta-gibbing my 250+ Point Transport and that my 365 Points Spartan when Equipped with a Flare Shield and Armored Ceramite will actually survive to unload its 5-600+ point Cargo that I usually load it up with.

Totally subjective and all that but since only the Spartan can take both Upgrades, Costs a ton of points to field and is a pretty expensive monetary investment, that its fine as is. Very rare is the list fielding 2+ Spartans.

It's all personal taste of course, but for me the thing about Spartans that makes me sigh is that all comers lists have so little chance to stop the Spartan delivering it's cargo directly into combat without ever being vulnerable to any of the things that they'd typically be vulnerable to until after they've murdered a unit and to me that's the opposite of fun. In this era deep striking termines only come from specific list builds and they can't charge instantly. And yes, Spartans do cost a lot of points but I just don't like how it can charge face first at pretty much anything and still deliver it's cargo almost every time. To my mind, if that's what it's supposed to be able to do then it should be a super heavy and out in LoW territory instead of on the regular FoC.

There are ways to kill spartans but seldom before it's already done it's job and to me that's just not cricket. Part of the game is uncertainty and Spartans are a little too certain to me right now, especially put into the context of well rounded all comers lists.

[Theredknight]

I'm sure I'll be totally outgunned, but when I started my Pride of the Legion army, I said I'd own it 100% and dadgum I will!

More power to you To be honest, I'm actually happier with you playing that list than just a single deathstar in a smaller game. I'm all about goofy fluffy lists that lead to fun and interesting games and a hyper-elite very inflexible terminator force fits into that pretty well. In those big games Spartans are much more forgivable all around.

I'm actually happy that I dont have to fear melta guns (or even a Single Melta Shot) Insta-gibbing my 250+ Point Transport and that my 365 Points Spartan when Equipped with a Flare Shield and Armored Ceramite will actually survive to unload its 5-600+ point Cargo that I usually load it up with.

Totally subjective and all that but since only the Spartan can take both Upgrades, Costs a ton of points to field and is a pretty expensive monetary investment, that its fine as is. Very rare is the list fielding 2+ Spartans.

It's all personal taste of course, but for me the thing about Spartans that makes me sigh is that all comers lists have so little chance to stop the Spartan delivering it's cargo directly into combat without ever being vulnerable to any of the things that they'd typically be vulnerable to until after they've murdered a unit and to me that's the opposite of fun. In this era deep striking termines only come from specific list builds and they can't charge instantly. And yes, Spartans do cost a lot of points but I just don't like how it can charge face first at pretty much anything and still deliver it's cargo almost every time. To my mind, if that's what it's supposed to be able to do then it should be a super heavy and out in LoW territory instead of on the regular FoC.

There are ways to kill spartans but seldom before it's already done it's job and to me that's just not cricket. Part of the game is uncertainty and Spartans are a little too certain to me right now, especially put into the context of well rounded all comers lists.

Low slot would be great! Frees my heavy slot if I used one.

I think it pays a premium to deliver its cargo, but I'm also glad it can't be insta killed t1.

You could always take a squadron of laser vindis to counter, if they were in squadrons that is!

[Slips]

@LostAlone: Trust me, you dont want the Spartan to be a superheavy since if it was, it'd be even harder to take down at that point :p And, if it were a superheavy that might just allow it to carry multiple squads inside.

 

...As if a single 10 Man Templar (Or Equivalent PA/ArtA CC Unit) Squad charging out of it was bad enough, you'd then have to deal with 2 of them

[DuskRaider]

Don't worry, the Mastodon will take that mantle.

[LostAlone]

@LostAlone: Trust me, you dont want the Spartan to be a superheavy since if it was, it'd be even harder to take down at that point And, if it were a superheavy that might just allow it to carry multiple squads inside.

...As if a single 10 Man Templar (Or Equivalent PA/ArtA CC Unit) Squad charging out of it was bad enough, you'd then have to deal with 2 of them

Sure, but that's not really what I was trying to say. I think that if it's supposed to be quite so totally indestructible then it should be nudged out of the core list and put into 'volcano cannon' territory. If it's supposed to be something you see all the time then to me I think it should be a little be more vulnerable. Not much. Just a little bit.

I think that's worth re-iterating - I'm not talking about a major change to anything. Still 5 hull points, still the same transport space, the same price, can still be a dedicated transport. Just that you can only take one or the other out of flare shields and armored ceramite. The only thing that that really changes is how you play with it, forcing you to be more careful with how you move it and that's about it. Meltaguns are still really short ranged and still uncommon because plasma is just better for an anti-infantry squad like vets. There's literally no chance that a tactical squad can meltagun you to death because they don't have a meltagun.

Even a tactical support squad with lots of meltas still isn't all that dangerous, assuming you move well. They can move six inches a turn and have only a 6" double pen range. If you point the flare shield at them then they can't even glance you; their expensive specialized equipment will be as effective as lasguns. Drop podding suicide melta squads can potentially be a problem but then you still have the option for armored ceramite which at a stroke will make a specialized, expensive squad useless and it's associated RoW heavily limits the other anti-tank firepower available to the army outside of them.

That parallels the current problems faced by Spartans. If I'm a jerk and I list tailor I can drop pod six dreadnoughts with grav guns around your armored box, or rush some grav gun land speeds at it, or set up a bunch of grav cannons. All of these things are solid answers, but they only really work if you tailor your list to specifically go after a spartan. Grav weapons are just dreadful against anything else and it's a huge amount of wasted points if there isn't such a dangerous high priority target on the field.

All that I'm really talking about is making it so that in a non-tailored game there's one more thing (of the Spartan players choosing) that they need to be careful of. It discourages cheesy, spammy builds by making all comers lists better able to handle that threat with typical every day weapons. I don't mind having a sub-game based around fighting the Spartan, that can be a really fun part of the game but I'd like to see it become more two sided, with the Spartan player needing to delay their attack to stay in cover or re-route to a less optimal target. Having vulnerabilities makes for a fun game. Being invulnerable doesn't. When players need to work around their units weaknesses that makes for all kinds of cool situations. When they don't it's just hurling dice and hoping that it works out.

Perhaps part of the problem is the present vehicle damage rules; the fact that penetrating hits are the only ones worth a crap (since a glance can never interrupt what the Spartan is doing) but almost anything that can pen can get a one hit kill. That's why I feel a super heavy Spartan (not just the same vehicle with the super heavy rule, I mean building a vehicle to be as tough but also being super heavy) would make more sense. Supers can't be one hit killed so they could be much more open about what things can hurt it. That'd make for a vehicle that's just as hard to kill but is still vulnerable to traditional anti-tank weapons.

To me at least, the combination of 'You must shoot me from the sides with high strength, low Ap weapons' and 'The only common fast moving anti-tank weapon doesn't work' is just un-fun. Either one makes for something cool, both makes it a little too much.

[DuskRaider]

I agree that the Spartan is powerful. It's also more expensive than some Super Heavies. I don't know, I mean it's definitely a boon to your force, but more than one or two and you're going to be woefully outnumbered by the enemy. A tooled out squad of Terminators riding in a Spartan with Armoured Ceramite and Flareshield plus a pintle-mounted weapon is roughly 850 points. Two of them and you're already over the recommended point usage of a normal 40K game by 200 points. Granted, 30K is supposed to start at 2500 points, but as you see thats one more squad in a Spartan and I haven't even factored in an HQ. I think the prohibitive cost offsets it's durability some, especially when you consider that the enemy has the same points to play with and will outgun you by a good amount. LasCannon shots to the sides and rear are just like shooting a Land Raider (which a squadron of said vehicles is cheaper than one Spartan with my merry band of Cataphractii).

[Hesh Kadesh]

graviton. graviton graviton. If you don't have haywire you're not all comers.

[Ishagu]

I'm not too concerned with Spartans...

Besides, they can only deliver a single unit.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

If I'm a jerk and I list tailor I can drop pod six dreadnoughts with grav guns around your armored box, or rush some grav gun land speeds at it, or set up a bunch of grav cannons.  

 

How does this make you a jerk, grav is the best at dealing with all vehicles; its like calling people with plasma jerks for taking it to deal with teq/meq

 

 

 

Grav weapons are just dreadful against anything else 

 

I'm going to assume you mean non-vehicles to start with, but even then thats not accurate; slowing and causing dangerous tests to 5"x3 areas is fairly effective at stalling an enemy who can at most move 6" a turn. Maneuverability is the most critical factor in winning games. If you meant a literal "everything else" them that's even more farcical, saying doing hullpoints on a 2+ to anything and then potentially immobilizing them is insane. Area control, movement denial and guaranteed damage..."dreadful"