The Emperor's Gift (Discussion)

[Prot]

Hey guys,

 

If you're like me perhaps you read a few things at once, and I have to admit I am having a lot of trouble re-reading the Ben Counter Omnibus for Grey Knight. It's not that it's terrible, just.... it feels very dated to me now compared to its release now that we've seen a lot of Chaos-vs-Imperium stuff in the Horus Heresy novels and expansions.

 

So I decided to read something fresh to me.... The Emperor's Gift. I haven't finished it yet, so please be mindful when giving spoilers, but I thought it might be revered as one of the premiere Grey Knight, full length novels and worthy of a general discussion.

 

Sometimes I read stuff like this just to gain insight on the inner workings, and sometimes it's for pure entertainment. Plus I admittedly really like most of ADB's work. (I'm one of the few that really didn't like Talon of Horus, but love his HH works.... his World Eaters representation really impressed me.)

 

Here he seems almost a little... subdued. I was a bit surprised by the pacing and 'style' of this novel. I keep looking at the date, but it is -after- some of his great HH stuff, so it's almost like there is a very different.... mood to this one.

 

'Inner workings' wise - One thing I almost find annoying about the Grey Knight stories I read is I get the feeling in these books that the Grey Knights almost take (for lack of a better word) direction from the Inquisition. I know that sounds moronic, because we're talking about the same arm of the -anti-daemon-policeforce here, but is there no independent movement by the Grey Knights as a chapter? Do the Grey Knights ever seem to dictate a martial action? Or is it always coming from the =I=?

 

This is one thing I find a little bothersome. Yes, I know we're on the same team, even if the codex has been fragmented by greedy people, the reality is that the Grey Knights are an immensely powerful fighting force for the Imperium and it seems silly I never read of any great actions taken by the chapter itself... without direction from the =I=.

 

I confess, when the codexes were mixed, I very, very, very rarely played much Inquisition with my Grey Knights. I thought of them as.... a necessary evil.

 

 

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The feel of the novel itself gives some interesting insight into the life of a Grey Knight. Understanding the 'process' of losing your past, and not becoming one of the millions buried beneath the Fortress Monastery is very interesting.

 

Also the founding is perhaps better fleshed out from the most recent codex, and I keep waiting for someone... anyone to dig deeper into the Emperor and Malcador's creation of the Chapter just before the attack on Terra. Is any of that explored in the book? (To me there is a massive opportunity to explore the Emperor's thinking and his insight into the warp, etc.)

 

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So what did you think of the book? Do you rank it up there with the better GK fiction? Is there something else out there you rank up there for a great GK read?

 

I have seen a new book on the horizon... short stories perhaps? Called the Sons of Titan by David Annadale, but it looks quite small... 240 pages, and perhaps just a compilation book. I'm not sure. It looks to be out in October of 2015: http://www.amazon.com/Grey-Knights-Titan-Space-Marines/dp/1784960101

 

 

[Flint13]

I was a huge fan when I read it a little while ago.

 

While it is very gray knight-centric, I love Mr. d-B's portrayal of the Space Wolves as well. It does such a great job of highlighting the very stark differences between two forces that are working for the same side.

 

The only issue I had with it was the atttrition rates that the Gray Knights suffered. There is a pretty big point made as to how much of the chapter is brought together and only a few survive. The GK are supposed to be one of the smallest, most specialized chapters of any of them, correct? With attrition rates like those suffered in Emperors Gift, I'm surprised they lasted a couple of centuries as an organization.

 

I mean, this isn't the Heresy we're talkin here. Marines don't get mass produced any longer ^_^

[Lucien Eilam]

The only issue I had with it was the atttrition rates that the Grey Knights suffered.

 

I doubt the First War for Armageddon and civil war with a First Founding Chapter are exactly typical.

[VVolf]

I enjoyed it. One thing that bugs me is how a grey knights personal history is handled. In the book it gives an impression that knowledge of a grey knights pre-marine past is available for any inquisitor to access. This is supposed to be the most hidden part of the warrior so it cannot be used against them. A true name can also be deadly to a grey knight as shown in the audiobook 'true name'.

 

A normal deployment is a squad of knights. The war for Armageddon had an entire company because it was so big. Depends who they are expecting to fight.

 

The Grey Knights are independant, they just get called into battle by Inquisitors who root out the corruption to begin with. Kind of like how the all police solve crime but a detective will investigate special cases and a uniformed officer does all the legwork and the actual arrest.

 

The knights errant is a good series that hints about the grey knights origins. There is even an audiobook that mentions the plans for titan. I think the origins will be revealed there.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm reading it now, not finished yet, although past the Armageddon part. Makes me wish GW would restructure our codex a little better, because this book has an excellent grasp on how GKs function, while our codex kind if drops the ball.

 

One point I hate, which applies across the board not just for this book: there is no reason why GKs are stuck following codex marine levels when they follow nothing else in the codex Astartes. 1,000 marines against the Darkness? Stop being stupid, GW!

 

Another general grip is Marines commanding Navel vessels. I'm sorry, but Marines are passengers, not Admirals, they are not trained to command a navel vessel in intrastellar combat, and I'm tired of seasoned navel officers deferring to a Novice Astartes. No wonder the Imperium can't win wars!

 

SJ

[Prot]

 

One point I hate, which applies across the board not just for this book: there is no reason why GKs are stuck following codex marine levels when they follow nothing else in the codex Astartes. 1,000 marines against the Darkness? Stop being stupid, GW!

 

 

 

- This makes sense to me. They definitely operate outside of the codex astartes, and tactically are very different in composition and function. The funny thing is the codex -almost- makes special use of this with the Nemesis Strike Force... I mean it does have a GK feel to it... until variants of it became available to anything with a bolter.

 

 

Another general grip is Marines commanding Navel vessels. I'm sorry, but Marines are passengers, not Admirals, they are not trained to command a navel vessel in intrastellar combat, and I'm tired of seasoned navel officers deferring to a Novice Astartes. No wonder the Imperium can't win wars!

 

-This I am mixed on. There is a very 'ancient' feel to the Grey Knights for me. As you say, they operate outside of normal astartes parameters. I think of the Horus Hersey novels where it's not that uncommon for Astartes to command war vessels. It is a different time now, and the codex astartes separated the Imperial Navy from the Legions for obvious reasons.... but as far as interstellar combat, I don't know if I believe a 400 year old Astartes with genetic enhancements should bow down to a pot bellied dude with a fake eye and unkept beard for naval combat situations. ;)

 

As you said, GK are a different animal.

 

So far what's bugging me is I have yet to read a good story about a GK Librarian doing what they do and they're presented as an extremely important, and potent part of the chapter. Where are they? Why don't they have an significance in these pivotal moments? Are they all like mine? Failing Vortex summoning? Or Vortexing poor old Draigo out of existence? Because if they looked at my Libbies, then yea... it would make sense why they are no where to be found in the fiction... because they're all floating in the warp rolling double 6's to get teleport out of it.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

One thing to keep in mind is that our 5th edition codex dropped right in the middle of ADB writing 'Emperor's Gift'. So, he had to scrap his original manuscript entirely (he mentions this in his author's note at the start). 

 

Both the 5th edition and 7th edition books both give countless examples of independent operations by the Chapter. ADB even mentions in his novel that the whole reason only 100 knights could be summoned, even with one of the 101 most powerful daemonic entities incarnate, was because the vast majority of the Chapter is constantly deployed and most too far to reach Armageddon in time. So, I wouldn't worry too much about perceptions of being too much under the Inquisitions thumb. Remember, Castian had to be petitioned from the fortress monastery, and they already had been promised to another. They still had complete autonomy to choose which Inquisitor to prioritise. 

 

The reason Castian give order to their ship's crew is the same in regular Chapters; they're the senior members of the same organisation, they choose when and where the ship goes and what it does. They're not actually in command of the vessel itself (that's what the crew and captain is for), but the crew are Chapter serfs with unique training and responsibility. They're still outranked by even a battle brother of the 666th. And remember, this isn't like the Imperial Guard and Navy. The Astartes all command their own Chapter fleets. 

 

We are very likely to see development in the Horus Heresy series about our founding. How much BL chooses to divulge, I don't know. We'll almost certainly know the identities of the original 8, including of course Janus. I think we already have very strong hints about one of the others (see my sig). And the codex already gives us most of the broad arc, if not a lot of specific plot points. Remember, the founding of the Grey Knights is at best going to be a sub-plot in the HH series. The main arc is always going to be about the Legions, Primarchs and Emperor. But our founding is very much tied to the events and aftermath of the Heresy, so I have full confidence we'll get at least one book, if not two. Where and when in the series, who can say. 

 

Librarians and Dreadknights (another glaring omission, given their exact purpose is to combat oversized daemonic entities that Terminators cannot) not getting any screen time is unfortunate, but again, remember he had to start from scratch. ADB was under a lot of pressure to re-write in time for release. I think it's a miracle that 'Emperor's Gift' is of such high quality, and yet it's basically a complete re-write done in the nick of time. That's how you know an author is skilled. Not only did ADB produce one of the founding pieces of lore for our Chapter, he did it under immense pressure and unusual constraints (having a codex drop during writing is not a common event I would think). 

[Deamon Wolf]

so books with little hints to the Grey Knights origins

 

as stated previously the Knights Errant Series then its  the Emperors Gift and Pandorax.

 

don't forget that when Ben Counter wrote the original Grey Knight trilogy we were a chamber militant of the Ordo Mallus  and we were in the Daemon Hunters dex ( good stories though )

 

regarding Space Marines commanding warships there are some very good scenes in Pandorax that show how good a space Marine ( or Traitor  Marine  ) can be a commanding Ships

 

regarding the Armageddon Campaign it is generally regarded as one of the highest points the Chapter has ever risen to but the aftermath is regarded as one of the lowest points as well

 

regarding the Inquisition yes the Grey Knights follow their orders but so dose every one else usually under pain of death but as started previously we are generally following the same lines of interest with most inquisitor's ( don't read Malladictus  ) as no one wants an invasion from the neather realm

 

:) that's my 2 pence worth

[jeffersonian000]

Chapter 666 was founded per-Codex Astartes, based on the Legion format, which we saw represented in old Daemonhunters and newer 5th Ed codexes by the implied 8,000-40,000 Grey Knights in active service. The 7th Ed codex greatly reduced the reach of the GK without reducing their scope, which means they fail more often than they succeed. Dedicating an entire Strike Cruiser to a 5-man team composed of two veterans and three novices is a rediculously stupid waste of resources, as seen by that specific teams reduction via attrition. 40k is a very badly thought out universe as it stands today. 10-20 years ago, it would have been a Demi-company on that Strike Cruiser.

 

As to Astartes primacy, in this specific case, we have a veteran captain of combat vessel deferring to a novice with no command experience, no leadership training, and no background in navel warfare, because reasons? I'm not knocking ADB, I'm calling the current 40k setting out on being more stupid than grim dark. Sure, a 400 year old Astartes might know a thing or two about how to run a void battle, but not a novice still learning to follow orders from his squad leader. Just because Astartes are high on growth hormones and bio implants doesn't mean each one is an Ender Wiggans or a Creed.

 

SJ

[VVolf]

I don't believe any Grey Knight would be completely unexperianced with naval command or warfare.

 

They spend most of the lives aboard ships. They have training in boarding actions, requiring knowledge of ship layouts and likely combat tactics for both your ship and the enemies to be effective. I think it was the Night Lords series that said marines have ship layouts commited to memory through flash training so i'm guessing warship tactics, however basic, would be included too.

 

Also - Vorth Mordrak is meant to be Admiral of the Fleet. I find it hard to believe he would have no experiance at all.

[Flint13]

Sure, a 400 year old Astartes might know a thing or two about how to run a void battle, but not a novice still learning to follow orders from his squad leader. Just because Astartes are high on growth hormones and bio implants doesn't mean each one is an Ender Wiggans or a Creed.

SJ

 

I dunno about that last part.

 

Mr D-B has been pretty vocal about the misconceptions of Astartes tactical doctrine in the past. Last Black Library weekender he even got a little heated explaining to a few fans how the line level Ultramarines were more tactically adept than the greatest human military mind to have ever been produced in our time.

[Prot]

 

Sure, a 400 year old Astartes might know a thing or two about how to run a void battle, but not a novice still learning to follow orders from his squad leader. Just because Astartes are high on growth hormones and bio implants doesn't mean each one is an Ender Wiggans or a Creed.

SJ

 

I dunno about that last part.

 

Mr D-B has been pretty vocal about the misconceptions of Astartes tactical doctrine in the past. Last Black Library weekender he even got a little heated explaining to a few fans how the line level Ultramarines were more tactically adept than the greatest human military mind to have ever been produced in our time.

 

 

 

Oddly enough this was my point -against- ADB trying to sell us on the possibility of Abe being as strong as Horus.

 

This is related to our conversation, just stick with me here...

 

Horus, a Primarch, has a larger cup to hold the contents of anything he deems significant.

 

Abaddon, an Astartes Marine, has a smaller cup.

 

Albert Einstein...... smaller still.

 

So when Horus comes out of his big trek into the Warp, and is in love with all things Chaos, his cup is pretty darn full. So was Abe's, but the cup is smaller.

 

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Even if the human ( or an even slightly augmented human) had near the exposure to warfare that a 400 year old Astartes does... his cup just can't hold as much. The capacity just isn't there. Marines having eidetic memories is well documented.

 

Behind the helm of a warship let's assume superior physical engineering isn't an issue. I would still give a load of respect to augmented human at the helm because his experience could be a longer lifetime than any of us will have, and the situations in which he served the navy is certainly relevant, but in the long run I'd have to give the edge to a -strong- marine commander. Not to take anything away from the odd 'Han Solo' out there.

 

Seriously nerdy conversation but I wasn't going to get into it.... I just think of the things in the book I find a little off.... that's way,way down the list. (Not that it's a long list!)

[Adeptus]

I really liked the book. I liked the moral problems it set for us, with the humanitarian Space Wolves and the authoritarian Inquisition, and the Grey Knights caught in the middle.

 

I found myself firmly siding with the Inquisition/Grey Knights as the book went on.

 

I like the theme of only a small band of warriors holding the darkness at bay that you get from having only 1,000 Grey Knights.

 

But at the same time, having more Strike Cruisers at their disposal than Rhinos seems ridiculous. I mean, there's just no way you could have one strike cruiser for every five to ten marines. It's silly.

 

Having said that, there's a lot of uncovered ground there to explore. Maybe the chapter has no upper cap on it's strength. Maybe centuries ago they numbered in the tens of thousands or more. Maybe they've been slowly whittled down to their current numbers.

 

I like to not even think about how many Grey Knights there are. I just blur that number out in my own personal head-canon and instead tell myself there is 'just not quite enough' Grey Knights, so all their battles are uphill. That's how I like it.

 

 

 

The only issue I had with it was the atttrition rates that the Grey Knights suffered.

 
I doubt the First War for Armageddon and civil war with a First Founding Chapter are exactly typical.

 

 

Little nitpick, but there are no first founding chapters. During the second founding, all legions were split into chapters. Some of those chapters got to keep their original names, but all second founding chapters have just as much history and provenance as the first founding legions.

[Lucien Eilam]

Little nitpick, but there are no first founding chapters.

 

Nope, wrong. Codex Space Marines:

 

They have spawned more successors than any other First Founding Chapter, and each one strives always to live up to the example of their genetic forebears.

 

Whether First Founding Chapters or recently established brotherhoods, all Space Marines feel the call of their genetic heritage.

 

Codex Space Wolves:

 

The Legions still loyal to the Emperor would live on as ‘First Founding’ Chapters, keeping their original names, colours and iconography. The remaining Space Marines from each loyalist Legion were then reorganised into a number of new Chapters. In each case, these Second Founding Chapters all shared a genetic brotherhood with their First Founding Chapter and their Primarch.

 

Codex Dark Angels:

 

Each of the original Legions spawned a First Founding Chapter that retained its name and identity, along with successor Chapters responsible for becoming their own, entirely autonomous entities.

 

Etc.

[Adeptus]

 

Little nitpick, but there are no first founding chapters.

 

Nope, wrong. 

 

Were they called chapters at the time of the first founding?

 

Were the chapters of the second founding created from scratch?

[Demus Ragnok]

 

 

Little nitpick, but there are no first founding chapters.

 

Nope, wrong.

Were they called chapters at the time of the first founding?

 

Were the chapters of the second founding created from scratch?

The "First Founding Chapters" are those that kept the Legion names after the codex split the legions.

[thade]

(Finish the book, Prot! I can't talk about the best parts until you finish the booooook!!!!)

 

Though the opening scene was pretty damn fantastic.

[Prot]

(Finish the book, Prot! I can't talk about the best parts until you finish the booooook!!!!)

 

Though the opening scene was pretty damn fantastic.

 

 

Well I would... but this stupid game keeps taking my time! lol

 

I am about a third through it.... great scene on the Wolves battlebarge it kind of reminded me of.... Event Horizon a bit (the original cruddy 'space horror' movie).

 

What struck me as cool was all the after waves, of psychic memory floating in the barge, the emotions, the final moments of battle, the brief exchanges before death.... all kind of floating in the air, or soaked into the hull. The GK could even feel the death of the Machine Spirit. It was a very cool scene.

 

I am using the book as painting motivation (it's how I work) So I am trying not to plow through it, but I've just got David Annadale's book in the mail so I can start that afterwards.

 

Honeslty, I'm struggling to do another 1850 after just painting 1850 of GK, and about 1850 of Ultra, so this helps me stay motivated.

[Adeptus]

 

 

 

Little nitpick, but there are no first founding chapters.

Nope, wrong.

Were they called chapters at the time of the first founding?

 

Were the chapters of the second founding created from scratch?

The "First Founding Chapters" are those that kept the Legion names after the codex split the legions.

 

 

Right, and they are in no way different from the second founding chapters. Second founding chapters did not stem from the first, they were simply divided. The second founding wasn't a founding per se, it was a division of forces. All second founding chapters should be regarded equally with the first founding.

 

That's why I nitpicked the use of the term 'first founding chapter' because the Space Wolves were created at the same time as the Novamarines, Crimson Fists or the Doom Eagles. It's just that some of those forces were re-branded some time ago, while others kept their original names.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well, GK don't follow the Codex Astartes. And none of the Brotherhoods have prescribed limits on their numbers. So theoretically, a million knights could exist within the very broad strictures of the Chapter. 

 

I would think of it more in terms of available resources. Doing some basic math about the process that finds, creates and forges a Grey Knight;

 

1/1,000,000 humans are born with meaningful psychic potential in the Imperium. Lets be unrealistic, and assume the Black Ships perfectly harvest this bounty of raw potential. The codex also mentions the Silver Skulls and Exorcists give up promising psychic neophytes pre-implantation to the Grey Knights. We can also assume the Grey Knights recruit from the Sol system. The codex mentions that Broadsword Station is constantly receiving shuttles of candidates and they always leave empty. So it's likely the Chapter receives something in the order of a million recruits a year. 

 

1/1,000,000 of the recruits make it through the trials and gene-seed implantation procedures. They emerge out the other side as Grey Knight Terminators ie fully trained and equipped line warriors. They then spend the rest of their lives embroiled in the most horrendous, dangerous and absurdly outnumbered battles any human being fights. Keep in mind, even with Aegis plate, nemesis weapons, firepower unmatched by any other Imperial force and the fastest transportation means in existence...they still lose sometimes. And often, even when Grey Knights win, they still suffer casualties. 

 

I have no doubt the Chapter would be Legion sized, if it fought conventional enemies and it's requirements for recruits weren't so insanely narrow and specific. But the fact is, something like 99% of combat-rated psykers aren't viable candidates, and out of the tiny handful that do satisfy the Chapter's requirements, one in a million survive the trials to become a battle brother. The vast majority of battle brothers probably never make it past Justicar rank, if that. Titan is probably flat out replacing combat losses, nevermind expanding any one Brotherhood's squad count. 

 

People often ask why the Grey Knights have no successors (Exorcists are technically the only one, and they're the polar opposite, don't require psychic recruits, plus they follow the Codex). It's because the Imperium can barely support one Chapter of daemon-hunting psychic marines. Even ignoring the astronomical cost of the Chapter fleet, the resources Deimos has to expend to forge the Chapter's very specific wargear and ammunition, there just aren't enough candidates. If the warp didn't exist, the Grey Knights would be a colossal waste of resources by any sane measure (we probably absorb the resources of ten other Chapters). As it stands, we're probably the only reason the Imperium hasn't fallen apart. 

[Lucien Eilam]

Right, and they are in no way different from the second founding chapters. Second founding chapters did not stem from the first, they were simply divided. The second founding wasn't a founding per se, it was a division of forces. All second founding chapters should be regarded equally with the first founding.

 

That's why I nitpicked the use of the term 'first founding chapter' because the Space Wolves were created at the same time as the Novamarines, Crimson Fists or the Doom Eagles. It's just that some of those forces were re-branded some time ago, while others kept their original names.

 

You said, and I quote: "There are no First Founding Chapters". That is completely, 100%, flat-out wrong. Whether First and Second Founding Chapters can be considered equivalent is completely beside the point.

 

"First Founding Chapter" has been the official term for the Chapters that retained the names and home worlds of the original Legions, used in multiple publications dating back to the first mention of the concept of Foundings in Rogue Trader, through . Second Founding refers to those Chapters that were given new names. This has been totally consistent from day one.

 

Look it up in the Compendium, or Codex Imperialis, or Codex Ultramarines, or any other Space Marine publication right through to the current range.

 

http://cdn.lightbringers-space-marines.net/wip/first-founding-chapter.png

[jeffersonian000]

With a thousand chapters covering a million marines, and each of those chapters supporting a Librarius, there are about half dozen full strength all Pysker "Chapters" not including the GK. Just say'n.

 

SJ

[Adeptus]

 

Right, and they are in no way different from the second founding chapters. Second founding chapters did not stem from the first, they were simply divided. The second founding wasn't a founding per se, it was a division of forces. All second founding chapters should be regarded equally with the first founding.

 

That's why I nitpicked the use of the term 'first founding chapter' because the Space Wolves were created at the same time as the Novamarines, Crimson Fists or the Doom Eagles. It's just that some of those forces were re-branded some time ago, while others kept their original names.

 

You said, and I quote: "There are no First Founding Chapters". That is completely, 100%, flat-out wrong.

 

Wrong. Unless those chapters were, at the time of the first founding, referred to as chapters, then there were no first founding chapters. What they later came to be known as is totally irrelevant.

 

No chapters were created in the first founding. There were no first founding chapters. The term 'first founding chapter' is an oxymoron and incorrect.

[jeffersonian000]

Just wanted to point out that Grey Knights are not just a second founding chapter, but are the first of the seconding founding solely due to them being founded after the original Legion, but before the actual second founding. Technically, Chapter 666 is Legion XXI.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

With a thousand chapters covering a million marines, and each of those chapters supporting a Librarius, there are about half dozen full strength all Pysker "Chapters" not including the GK. Just say'n.

 

Not true. Remember, a Librarian of a normal Chapter isn't even the same as a Grey Knight battle-brother. Most Librarians wouldn't pass the trials to become a Grey Knight, but they're at least in the running. The regular non-psyker battle brothers of a Chapter can't even be considered as candidates. While it's true a normal Librarian might have more raw talent than a Grey Knight (as represented by Mastery levels), they have quite different training and abilities. Librarians have to guard against corruption with only their will and specialised mental architecture, Grey Knights have the gene-seed and their own brutal selection methods to ensure only the very strongest and purest minds join their ranks. Librarians are quite vulnerable to daemonic entities, as their only weapon is their mind. Grey Knights have the Aegis and nemesis weapons. 

 

Each Librarius is usually quite small. It depends on the Chapter and battle losses, but the number of Librarians wouldn't exceed 10 in most cases (they're rarer than Chaplains, Tech-Marines and Apothecaries). So, at best, if every Librarius in the Imperium was gathered together (and we're including Lexicanum's in that number, which aren't even fully trained yet), you could cobble together another psyker Chapter or two. But it's still gonna be weaker, more prone to corruption and nowhere near as effective as the Grey Knights. 

 

The Imperium is increasingly having psykers born on every world. But they're still very rare, and the number of viable candidates for combat training is even fewer (a lot of psykers have mediocre strength and weak minds which would just make them a liability). You then factor in the vagaries of warp travel, worlds being lost due to warfare etc, and you can't even harvest a lot of candidates. 

 

 

With regards to our founding, we're secretly included in the Second Founding. Again, rather like our designation as a Chapter, it's more a technicality than a real description. We're only superficially the same as Astartes, and we don't follow the codex or Legion structures at all. We also don't have a Primarch, the only other Chapter with the same issue is the Exorcists (and they're a real oddity).