The Emperor's Gift (Discussion)

[jeffersonian000]

Try re-reading my post, please, because you didn't appear to have had based on your response.

 

SJ

[Lucien Eilam]

Wrong. Unless those chapters were, at the time of the first founding, referred to as chapters, then there were no first founding chapters. What they later came to be known as is totally irrelevant.

 

No chapters were created in the first founding. There were no first founding chapters. The term 'first founding chapter' is an oxymoron and incorrect.

 

I've rarely seen such dedication to abject stupidity and ignorance in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

What exactly do you think all those dozens of uses of the phrase "First Founding Chapters", across dozens of official publications dating back over 25 years, are referring to?

 

Do you know what "retrospective" means?

[Adeptus]

 

I've rarely seen such dedication to abject stupidity and ignorance in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

Careful sweetheart, you wouldn't want to fall foul of the mods.

 

 

What exactly do you think all those dozens of uses of the phrase "First Founding Chapters", across dozens of official publications dating back over 25 years, are referring to?

 

Do you know what "retrospective" means?

 

They are referring to the legions created during the first founding.

 

Not chapters.

 

It's very simple.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Guys, the debate of what 'First Founding' means doesn't have any relevance to the thread topic or the Grey Knights. So, if you want to debate such things, please create a topic in one of the other Marine forums. 

 

/mod

 

Jeff, I did read your post and I explained why the numbers don't add up. The protocols around induction into a Marine Chapter are much less narrow than the Grey Knights. Even for the Librarium (which as I mentioned probably has no more than 10 active members at any one time), they'd take candidates the Grey Knights would reject or find unworthy in the trials on Titan. It's not just a question of raw psychic potential (the Grey Knights require a pretty formidable psyker to begin with), it's also a question of purity and strength of will. It's also likely that a Primarch's gene-seed is more compatible with a wider range of genetic variation than the Emperor's. 

 

There probably are something in the region of 10,000 Librarians in the Imperium. But less than a 1,000 of them would be Grey Knight material. 

[Lord Blackwood]

I guess the argument can sort of be summed up as do you consider a downsizing a founding?

I personally do not. The First founding chapters are the legions who were downsized. And from the marines split out of those legions the second founding chapters were founded. ( cept for the grey knights those special snowflakes are an entirely different thing involving some Malcador behinds the scenes cloak and dagger ) The fluff has always referred to the downsized legions as first founding chapters. Because there weren't exactly re founded at the second founding they just didint have legion strength numbers anymore.

I mean no offense Adeptus but im reading yer argument and it just seems like yer arguing for the sake of conflict. Every cannon source discussing this refers to the Dark Angels , Ultramarines , Space Wolves , White Scars , Imperial Fists , Iron Hands , Salamanders , Blood Angels , Ravenguard as first founding chapters. Maybe at the time of the dividing they wanted to separate the fact that they were the chapters that come from the original legions. Hell they could have gone. " okay all you leigons are now chapters " ..... " now onto the second meeting of business we will now commence the second founding." Its really an argument that is only going to go in circles due to yer unique way of interpreting the whole legion and chapter business.

oh and this

Guys, the debate of what 'First Founding' means doesn't have any relevance to the thread topic or the Grey Knights. So, if you want to debate such things, please create a topic in one of the other Marine forums.

/mod

[jeffersonian000]

RD, I referred to the number of trained Psyker Astartes outside of the GK equaling half a dozen chapters in response to another post. Where did I suggest those Psykers were trained to GK standards? A point was made on how hard it is to fill a chapter with Psykers, not how hard is was to survive the GK initiate process.

 

In point of fact, do we have a single example of a loyal Psyker Astartes birthing a neverborn into the universe other than what 7th Ed rules lets us do? The Librarius was formed for a reason, and it's worked quite well over the past 10,000 years of the setting. There is literally nothing stopping the formation of an all Psyker codex chapter other than tradition. Yet, tradition is why the Imperium runs so poorly.

 

SJ

[thade]

Posts that were purely inflammatory have been melta'd.

 

We're going to disagree on minutiae at times...there's no reason to be disrespectful to one another about it. If the trend I see in here continues, this thread goes out the airlock.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm ignoring all the first founding stuff, but seconding Jeff on all the rest.

The 'downsizing' of the GK chapter is ridiculous. And only happened because our spiritual liege got the nod to do our GK Marine Dex and still has a fluff cob on for the Ultras.

And their 10 companies of 100 marines.

That is it.

Really, the GK are much more numerous.

Also, if SM are so good at Naval combat, why isn't there a SM chapter that farms out a few SM to pilot every Imperial Navy ship? Nope.

And lastly, I think my stance on Emperors Gift is well known from a few recent threads (Great book to read, so awesome scenes, and miles better then Ben Counter. But ADB fails massively on two things. The 'shame' of Armageddon, and the pure fan- of Logan versus a GKGM...).

++ EDIT. Do not dodge the swear filter. -t ++

[Lord Blackwood]

I'm ignoring all the first founding stuff, but seconding Jeff on all the rest.

 

The 'downsizing' of the GK chapter is ridiculous.  And only happened because our spiritual liege got the nod to do our GK Marine Dex and still has a fluff cob on for the Ultras.

 

And their 10 companies of 100 marines.

 

That is it.

 

Really, the GK are much more numerous.

 

Also, if SM are so good at Naval combat, why isn't there a SM chapter that farms out a few SM to pilot every Imperial Navy ship?  Nope.

 

And lastly, I think my stance on Emperors Gift is well known from a few recent threads (Great book to read, so awesome scenes, and miles better then Ben Counter.  But ADB fails massively on two things.  The 'shame' of Armageddon, and the pure fan-**** of Logan versus a GKGM...).

yer still buthurt that logan  one shot that dude huh?  Logan Grimnar ?  The chapter master of a chapter of super choppy dudes?  

[thade]

I nuked another purely antagonist post. I'd appreciate it if you all would put the gloves back on now.

[Gentlemanloser]

Opps.  My bad for using stars. ;)

[Cpt. Lacerus]

I rather recently finished this book and put my thoughts in a thread in this sub forum. However it does contain spoilers so you can read it at your own peril. Although IMO nothing super plot twisting really happens I don't think. I love all Astartes but the scenes with Grimnar in them are pretty ridiculous in kind of a bad way. If he was half as amazing as he was portrayed to be then he would have just walked up to Angron and bitch slapped him to death, twice, not kidding. All in all it was an amazing and refreshing read.

 

Edit: On second thought, I really didn't mind the Wolves or Grimnars character that much at all. Right up until the scene he has with the GKGM and it really just made me roll my eyes. Yeah ADB paints him in a bad light so you don't mind as much what happens to him, but it was still Mary Sue bull:cuss IMO. Other than that it was pretty good. Oh, the Inquisitor chic gets kind of annoying at times with her power tripping but that's just the inquisition I guess.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

RD, I referred to the number of trained Psyker Astartes outside of the GK equaling half a dozen chapters in response to another post. Where did I suggest those Psykers were trained to GK standards? A point was made on how hard it is to fill a chapter with Psykers, not how hard is was to survive the GK initiate process.

 

No you're not saying it I am. I'm saying that the risks involved in creating another psychic Chapter are well-known and it's basically impossible to be done by the current Imperium. The High Lords are not going to repeat the mistake the Emperor made in creating the Thousand Sons. My point being, it's pretty much inevitable (as proven by Blood Ravens, who whilst not wholly psychic are lead by psykers, in particular their Chapter Master) that such a Chapter would fall to corruption. In the Blood Ravens case, all it took was the ambitions of one man. The very reason Librarians are less powerful than would otherwise be the case is that they shun easy paths to power (ie sorcery) and they cage their abilities inside training and mental barriers. 

In point of fact, do we have a single example of a loyal Psyker Astartes birthing a neverborn into the universe other than what 7th Ed rules lets us do? The Librarius was formed for a reason, and it's worked quite well over the past 10,000 years of the setting. There is literally nothing stopping the formation of an all Psyker codex chapter other than tradition. Yet, tradition is why the Imperium runs so poorly.

 

I disagree. The High Lords have the Horus Heresy as a stark reminder of allowing too much power to be concentrated into a single force. Psyker Astartes are arguably more dangerous than legions of normal Astartes, as they're just as capable as their non-psyker brothers, yet they wield the powers of the warp as well. The risks are simply too great. 

The 'downsizing' of the GK chapter is ridiculous.  And only happened because our spiritual liege got the nod to do our GK Marine Dex and still has a fluff cob on for the Ultras.

 

And their 10 companies of 100 marines.

 

That is it.

 

Really, the GK are much more numerous.

 

No, it's actually due to new background coming to light (the Eight Brotherhoods, our selection process etc). Also, I never bought into the theory that we were Legion sized, even in the 3rd edition book. Yes, we don't follow the Codex at all, and we have no defined limit on our numbers. But as I mentioned earlier in detail, the number of Grey Knights is never going to be many. The logistics and attrition involved in forging new battle brothers, combined with our combat losses, mean we're unlikely to exceed 1,000 strong at any one time. Keep in mind, almost the entire Chapter is on permanent crusade. So, the only time we return to Titan is to resupply, repair damage to our vessels, and replenish fighting strength with new battle brothers. In a normal Chapter, only the First Company and line companies are usually deployed regularly. The Reserve companies are used sparingly, and are commonly used to garrison warships or Chapter fortresses. 

Also, if SM are so good at Naval combat, why isn't there a SM chapter that farms out a few SM to pilot every Imperial Navy ship?  Nope.

 

I think this line of reasoning misses the point. Individual humans are quite capable of being better at void warfare than Astartes. Indeed, that's kind of the point. In the original Legions, very few Astartes captained ships. They may have held rank or command of certain ships, but in almost all cases, the ship had a human captain and crew doing the actual work. The same is true in modern Chapters, even the Grey Knights defer to human serfs to fly their ships. 

 

It's a complete waste of an Astartes to sit out a fight on the bridge of a warship. The only reason they'd be there is either infirmity (ie they're too old or maimed to fight normally), or they're genuinely skilled in that area (and like all things, Astartes vary as much as humans in their skill set). Now of course, the Astartes would have full say over where, when, how, what and why the ship is doing anything. That's the whole point; the ship delivers the Astartes to their target. But void warfare is something often entrusted to people who are raised with no other purpose (ie naval families). It makes more sense to let an otherwise vulnerable and weak human wield a ship for the Chapter, and let the actual Astartes do what they're created for (shock warfare). 

[jeffersonian000]

RD, you always confuse me. Your posts read like you disagree, yet you prove your disagreement by agreeing with what you disagreed with. /head explodes

 

SJ

[Prot]

RD, you always confuse me. Your posts read like you disagree, yet you prove your disagreement by agreeing with what you disagreed with. /head explodes

 

SJ

 

 

- I think it's a polite way of saying that he agrees humans can be fine pilots, but there's no way you would put a Corvette engine into a Lawnmower, when a little 2 horsepower engine will do fine.

 

IE: Just because a marine would be the ideal pilot, perhaps it doesn't make economical sense.

 

 

Wow I missed some real fireworks.... how does this always happen here? An innocent, and (Intended to be ) fun discussion goes south?

 

Back on topic....

 

I am finding the book a lot of fun. I think ADB's action sequences are -okay- but to be honest with him it's the "story behind the story" that always fascinates me.

 

Tancrith? Is that his name? I was fading a bit on the book.... then we enter this guy:

 

SPOILERS AHEAD:

 

Tancrith, the last of a chosen few? He brings more questions than answers. I wondered while reading this segment if they would ever try to bring the much heralded Tigurius into that situation? I know his hands are full, but still what a horrid life Tancrith is chained to. Wait... don't answer that, it's sure to erupt in arguments- anyway....

 

Tancrith is a tortured being that really left me wanting more of him.... what he does, what he knows, etc.

 

This reminds me of Talon of Horus. Easily one of my favorite parts of the book was when the Chaos Cruiser is forced to cross into the Emperor's light... the Astro-nomicon, to find a character..... an individual, representing a mere splinter of the Emperor's psychic might. Such a fantastic scene.

 

ADB always has this way of showing so much more about something, but it's really nothing... it doesn't change anything, or alter future history, but it always gives us a 'what if' kind of situation to chew on for a while.

 

So far Tancrith is easily my favorite part of the book. 

 

But I also enjoyed the scene of the grim reaper taking the dead Grey Knight to the fields of dead to be buried. The 'man' apparently handles the coffin with ease, and is a complete and utter null in the psychic spectrum..... This reminded me very much of the old Necron unit that doesn't exist anymore. I had many of those models and thought their absence was a huge hole in the codex.

 

But the very idea of these psychic nulls is something we see touched on, only briefly in the odd piece of fiction... sisters, assassins, etc. I'd like to know more about the where and why of requiring such a character in the Grey Knight's chapter.

 

Also the 'young' girl, declaring this is the last stand of humanity. Immense psychic ability seems to find itself gravitating towards the Grey Knights.... I need to get that girl to pick my lotto numbers.

 

Still really enjoying the book. It's worlds apart from any Grey Knights fiction so far. The overall lasting impression I get from it is the feeling of 'oneness' the squads seem to have from their psychic union. At times it borders on emotional soap opera, but I understand their bond is very deep.

 

I'm hoping this ends well.... but since when does that happen? lol

[Gentlemanloser]

No, it's actually due to new background coming to light (the Eight Brotherhoods, our selection process etc).

Please RD.

Who created that 'new' fluff? Our Spiritual Liege. That who.

We *only* have 8 brotherhoods, because Ward made that (with Paladin and Purifiers) into the 10 Company Ultramarine design goodness.

There is *zero* reason for the GK to be organised into 8/10 brotherhoods, and not keep a structure akin to the other Astartes Chamber Militant, the Deathwatch.

Except the GK have set 'kill teams', that speed of to deal with whatever issues the Prognosticators uncover.

Yes, we don't follow the Codex at all, and we have no defined limit on our numbers.

We do now...

1000 total.

Which is bupkiss.

The logistics and attrition involved in forging new battle brothers, combined with our combat losses, mean we're unlikely to exceed 1,000 strong at any one time. Keep in mind, almost the entire Chapter is on permanent crusade. So, the only time we return to Titan is to resupply, repair damage to our vessels, and replenish fighting strength with new battle brothers.

I feel you are devaluing the number of Psykers picked up daily by the Black Ships. The Emperor needs a sizable amount a day, and we are able to cream off that.

And while the near entire Chapter is away from Titan, new recruits are being made daily.

We have no Scout company to train newbies in.

Once made, they are given TDA and shipped out to battle the Archenemy. No proving themselves in the (lets be honest) crap company that gets crap equipment so Chapter Relics aren't wasted on newbies who don't know which of end of a bolter to hold.

Individual humans are quite capable of being better at void warfare than Astartes. Indeed, that's kind of the point.

No, they're not.

And that's the point.

In the original Legions, very few Astartes captained ships. They may have held rank or command of certain ships, but in almost all cases, the ship had a human captain and crew doing the actual work.

Was that for capability reasons? Or Hubris?

Couldn't that have been that the Legions *couldn't be bothered* to do that sort of grunt work, and left it to the mere mortals to pilot the ships, while they took the glory in the boarding and storming or planetlanding?

[Gentlemanloser]

Anyone know how many there are in the Deathwatch?

 

The guys very analogous to the GK.  Elite of the Elite Veterans of mostly all chapters.  Spread *everywhere* across the Galaxy to combat the ever-present Archenemy, er Xenos, threat.  Sent out in small teams to do what they do best.  Don't follow the Codex Astartes in *any* shape or form.

 

Yeah, I bet there's more than 1,000 of them total.

 

And they aren't shoe-horned into 10 companies either.

[jeffersonian000]

Pretty sure the Codex Astartes and High Lord decrees removed Astartes from the Imperial Navy, leaving the Chapters each with just a handful of Battle Barges, a few dozen Strike Cruisers and Frigates, which are apparently staffed with serfs and retired Marines.

 

My issue is only with seasoned Navel officers deferring to novice Astartes because reasons. Not a hit on ADB, just a gripe about how the setting is handle in general. The Imperial Navy should not be the cadet branch of the Imperial war machine, as they are the ones taking the brunt of any major action while the uselessly rare Astartes are summoned to do with few what the Guard does with many. Yes, I get it that Astartes are demigods amoung mortal man ... except that they aren't, are they? They are transhuman warriors trained for precision strikes, to be used in conjunction with the Astra Militarium anvil and the Imperial Navel hammer.

 

Just wished we'd see a little more of that.

 

As to the Emperor's Gift, ADB continues to be a genius at crafting beautiful stories to fill our Grim Dark fantasies, and I appreciate this fine work. My vote for our next codex to be ADB inspired.

 

SJ

[thade]

As to the Emperor's Gift, ADB continues to be a genius at crafting beautiful stories to fill our Grim Dark fantasies, and I appreciate this fine work. My vote for our next codex to be ADB inspired.

I wish. He's been asked about this directly a few times, and his respond has to my knowledge always been to the following tune: he's not a rules writer, he's a novelist; a rules writer really has to do their own fluff along with their rules, as the back-and-forth required would prove too much overhead for the two to be crafted separately. Whether that's actually true, that's why he says he'll very likely never do it.

 

Obligatory sad face. :( 

[Gentlemanloser]

Pretty sure the Codex Astartes and High Lord decrees removed Astartes from the Imperial Navy, leaving the Chapters each with just a handful of Battle Barges, a few dozen Strike Cruisers and Frigates, which are apparently staffed with serfs and retired Marines.

To be honest, I thought most marine vehicles were piloted by Servitors / Machine Spirits.

With all available Marines left to form the 5/10 man squads.

How do you have a company of 100 Marines, when 20 of those (who should be in Tactical / Assault squads) are piloting the 10 Rhinos that company has.

Let alone the Land Raiders or other vehicles that Company should have.

We have Grey Knights themselves actually be GK Prognostictors, rather than be part of a brotherhood. Why are actual Marines used? Shouldn't this be mortal Psykers, like Navigators etc are?

But if GK Marines make the 'best' Prognosticators, then surely the case is some type of Marine makes the best, well, anything.

Why haven't the White Scars been disbanded, and the exception Marine pilots that make the WS drafted in to pilot the most important war vehicles of the Imperium?

Why leave that job to base mortals, who not only don't have the training, but don't have the same physical durabilty, or experience from long life.

Granted, this is like Techmarines, and Techpriests. There just aren't enough Techmarines to go round, so trained humans are used. But Techmarines are better. I don't think there would be enough Marines to fully pilot every war vehicle in the imperium. But why not the most important? Why isn't there like the Techmarines of Mars, a Space Marine 'flight school' for the Chapters Pilots?

Unless we're expected to believe that all marines are just as good at piloting every Imperial vehicle as every other Marine.

Probably best not to think about these things....

My issue is only with seasoned Navel officers deferring to novice Astartes because reasons. Not a hit on ADB, just a gripe about how the setting is handle in general. The Imperial Navy should not be the cadet branch of the Imperial war machine

You'd think the Imperial Navy, and a Navy Captain, would overrule any Astartes that are just passengers on his ship.

I suppose the whole Inquisition trumps all card gets in the mix there. With the GK riding in that coat tail.

Getting back to the Emperors Gift, and 'that' scene with Logan;

First of, forgive me for any inaccuracies, I read the book a little while ago.

What I disliked the most was;

1: The GKGM was stated by Hyp to be the best swordsman of the entire chapter. A lot of his prowess came from psychically 'reading' his opponent, and just plainly being faster.

2: The GKGM was using the amazingly fast Nemesis Falchions, with his hands on the hilts, ready for action. Logans Axe was buried in the deck in front of him and his hands were not on it.

3: While nearly all of the 100 GK on deck were said to be in awe of Logan, the GKGM was specifically mentioned was being wary, and was studying Logan. Not held in awe of him at all.

4: The GK had throughout the book, been given numerous accounts of shared senses (I'll not use hive mind again, incorrect term!) and the sum of them being greater than individual parts. The more GK there are, the more powerful they all become. There were 100 on the deck.

5: The GK had enough psychic power to erect Telekine Shields that deflected the blows of a Primarch. Primarch. A Daemon Prince Primarch at that.

With all this in mind, Logan was able to;

Pull his sword Axe from the deck in front of him, and lop of the GKGMs head. Before the *fastest* swordsman of the entire chapter, who was already on edge (and presumable psychically reading Logan as he usually would any foe) and had his hands on the hilt of the fastest Nemesis Weapons in existence, weapons known for their blinding speed, was able to react.

Really?

Oh, and who was backed by 99 other brothers, most likely psychically linked together, who have the Telekine power to deflect the blows of a Daemon Prince Primarch, but none of which were able to deflect Logans blow.

Really really?

This is why this scene seems nothing more than fan to me.

Even if you deem the GKGM was 'guilty', that Logan could then just murder 5 more 'innocent' Justicars, and go unpunished....

There was no grey area here, like the Dark Angels blowing up a GK cruiser, but there being little to no real evidence. Logan did that in plain view of the Inquisition.

It seemed like a rubbish shoe horned scene, that only ended the way it did because it's established that Logan is alive currently.

[jeffersonian000]

Yes, the GkGM should have caught Logan's axe in a lock against his Falchions, then asked the Inquistors if the Jarl should live. However, the goal was to have Logan on moral high ground, not the GKGM. I would have written that scene differently, but I'm not a GW writer.

 

And I said "ADB inspired codex", I did not say "ADB written codex". The lack of reading for content makes me feel like every mid-read post equals my head bouncing off a wall.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

- I think it's a polite way of saying that he agrees humans can be fine pilots, but there's no way you would put a Corvette engine into a Lawnmower, when a little 2 horsepower engine will do fine.

IE: Just because a marine would be the ideal pilot, perhaps it doesn't make economical sense.

Yeah that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. It's a logical thing for Astartes to do. They're rare enough as is, no need to further deplete their numbers tying them up with duties that a suitably trained serf could do.

Tancrith, the last of a chosen few? He brings more questions than answers. I wondered while reading this segment if they would ever try to bring the much heralded Tigurius into that situation? I know his hands are full, but still what a horrid life Tancrith is chained to. Wait... don't answer that, it's sure to erupt in arguments- anyway....

Well the Chapter can't function without Prognosticars, and they arguably do something more effective and meaningful than most Grey Knights will ever achieve. Going back to what I said earlier, I think Tiggy wouldn't be powerful enough . Keep in mind, Tancrith wields insane psychic might. By any measure, he's an alpha plus. But, unlike a rogue alpha, his powers are directed along a singular path.

That's probably the most powerful imagery in the book. The greatest psychic warriors in the Imperium don't actually fight, they do the much harder job of finding their enemy and directing their brothers to the infection. And it slowly kills them.

I'm hoping this ends well.... but since when does that happen? lol

All I can say is brace yourself

Please RD.

Who created that 'new' fluff? Our Spiritual Liege. That who.

We *only* have 8 brotherhoods, because Ward made that (with Paladin and Purifiers) into the 10 Company Ultramarine design goodness.

There is *zero* reason for the GK to be organised into 8/10 brotherhoods, and not keep a structure akin to the other Astartes Chamber Militant, the Deathwatch.

Except the GK have set 'kill teams', that speed of to deal with whatever issues the Prognosticators uncover.

We have 8 Brotherhoods because we have 8 founding Grand Masters. That's about as far from 10 Company Codex pattern as can be.

Paladins aren't a company, and they almost never fight in one place as one force. They're also not a First Company, because memberships is solely granted on the basis you pass the trials. Even the Grand Masters don't have any real say over who can join the Paladins. The Supreme Grand Master nominally can command them as a single force, but that almost never happens.

Purifiers are not a company either. Like the Paladins, memberships is based exclusively off a willingness to join them, and having the required spiritual purity.

The Deathwatch is nothing like the Grey Knights. It doesn't operate by the Codex either, and unlike the 666th Deathwatch Kill-Teams are usually only formed for a specific task or campaign. They're also entirely bound by Inquisition edict ie their Chapters give them over as a tithe for the duration of their service. No two Deathwatch battle brothers in a squad hail from the same Chapter, which is a failsafe preventing heresy or disobedience to the Inquisitor they will serve. The Grey Knights have no such restrictions, and can (and often do) operate entirely independently of all other Imperial forces and authority. Unlike the Deathwatch, Grey Knights can choose whether to answer the call of the Inquisition. They typically do, but it's still entirely their discretion.

I feel you are devaluing the number of Psykers picked up daily by the Black Ships. The Emperor needs a sizable amount a day, and we are able to cream off that.

And while the near entire Chapter is away from Titan, new recruits are being made daily.

We have no Scout company to train newbies in.

Once made, they are given TDA and shipped out to battle the Archenemy. No proving themselves in the (lets be honest) crap company that gets crap equipment so Chapter Relics aren't wasted on newbies who don't know which of end of a bolter to hold.

No, if you recall I was being optimistic. I assumed perfect harvesting by the Black Ships, and perfect selection of the right candidates. As you say, we only take a small fraction of the intake, most go to the Scholastica Psykana or the Hollow Mountain. One in a million psykers has the required physical, mental and psychic attributes. Stack that with the average induction rate of 1 new battle brother out of 1 million neophytes...there are never going to be that many knights.

I don't think we get new battle brothers every day. The trials themselves last quite a long time, the codex doesn't even describe them all. At the very least, it would take a few weeks to finally narrow down the few neophytes who deserve induction. My feeling was it was closer to a year, maybe more. In conventional Chapters, it's many years, sometimes as much as a decade, before a Scout is finally judged worthy. The codex does mention we're a lot more efficient, so optimistically, we get a fresh batch of fully-trained battle brothers every year.

Was that for capability reasons? Or Hubris?

Couldn't that have been that the Legions *couldn't be bothered* to do that sort of grunt work, and left it to the mere mortals to pilot the ships, while they took the glory in the boarding and storming or planetlanding?

It makes a lot of sense. Why waste Astartes on duties a mortal can perform? Also, as I mentioned earlier, Astartes vary in skill as much as humans do. They're not perfect at everything, even in battle skills Astartes can differ quite a lot (although unlike mortal soldiers, their basic skill set is vast and of quite high standard). The Emperor didn't create Astartes to stand on ships bridges and direct battles from afar. Any weak human can do that. Astartes are built for grueling shock warfare, for fights human soldiers can't win. With Grey Knights, that difference is even more pronounced. The Imperium expends enormous resources to create Grey Knights and equip them. It's a ludicrous waste of resources to leave Grey Knights on a ship, when their entire purpose is for fights even their cousin Astartes can't win (ie daemonic incursions).

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

We have 8 Brotherhoods because we have 8 founding Grand Masters. That's about as far from 10 Company Codex pattern as can be. 

 

Did we have 8 founding GM in the old fluff?  I'm no longer sure about that.  I'd bet this is just another case of Ward massaging the lfuff for his vision.

 

And yeah, the Paladin and Purifiers do count as companies.  Both newly created yet again by ward.

 

10 Brotherhoods?  Same as 10 Companies.  Shocking coincidence...

 

 

 

The Deathwatch is nothing like the Grey Knights. It doesn't operate by the Codex either, and unlike the 666th Deathwatch Kill-Teams are usually only formed for a specific task or campaign. They're also entirely bound by Inquisition edict ie their Chapters give them over as a tithe for the duration of their service. No two Deathwatch battle brothers in a squad hail from the same Chapter, which is a failsafe preventing heresy or disobedience to the Inquisitor they will serve. The Grey Knights have no such restrictions, and can (and often do) operate entirely independently of all other Imperial forces and authority. Unlike the Deathwatch, Grey Knights can choose whether to answer the call of the Inquisition. They typically do, but it's still entirely their discretion. 

 

Missing the point a tad. ;)

 

Operational organisation.  How to protect the entire Galaxy from an ever present threat?

 

Organise the Deathwatch into 10 companies of 1000 tithed Marines?  Nope.

[thade]

And I said "ADB inspired codex", I did not say "ADB written codex". The lack of reading for content makes me feel like every mid-read post equals my head bouncing off a wall.

You were issued a helmet upon ascending to Brother. You really ought to wear it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, unless you're the Supreme Grand Master, who upon the culmination of years of preperation and countless lives sacrficed, refuses to do so when going to fight Mortarion.

 

I guess keeping his hair style intact was more important.

 

/shudder

 

What is it with Grey Knight Grand Masters?  Do they suddenly become tactically inept the moment they take control of a Brotherhood?