The Emperor's Gift (Discussion)

[thade]

What is it with Grey Knight Grand Masters?  Do they suddenly become tactically inept the moment they take control of a Brotherhood?

There's a lot of stress involved, you see.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm beginning to think that we're actually so hardcore, so above 9000, that the only way GW can come up with to defeat us is rediculous situations / personal fails.

 

Like leaving your helmet behind, Logan's super Primarch speed power up, and the bloodtide.

 

If we're that good, just let us win without having to concoct these ridiculous situations! ;)

[Prot]

I'm just at the main battle opening scene....

 

I actually liked the interaction between the Grey Knights and Grimnar. It's a great exchange of mutual respect and I can't wait to see Angron go down. (Interesting piece though where the DP is actually clawing at them through the ether in the previous scene.)

[thade]

I'm beginning to think that we're actually so hardcore, so above 9000, that the only way GW can come up with to defeat us is rediculous situations / personal fails.

It's not clear to me that this is uniformly true, but in general I think your thesis (as I see it) fits: there's a real problem with snowballing (escalation) here, and I don't mean the numerics/statistics attached to the units. Everything story-wise needs to be The Biggest Baddest Scariest Most Awesome Things Yet, which leads to at least two things: 1. we all get desensitized to the runaway hyperbole; 2. everything just seems increasingly ridiculous.

 

A. D-B. is often quoted saying "there is no canon/make your own canon" which doesn't frustrate me anymore; on the contrary, it's pretty freeing, and actually fits quite well with the setting. The 40k universe is vast in a way we can't really grasp with our feeble human brains; scope alone makes every single source of information we see dubious at best. The only thing I'm certain of (as a lowly Imperial citizen, even one of wealthy stature) is that there was an Emperor and there are probably Space Marines, even though I never have seen any (and likely never will)...and if I question either openly I'm liable to be executed, assassinated, or suddenly gone. In some cases, my insistence that they do exist could result in my demise.

 

Even if I suspect SMs exist, my idea of what they look like or what they're capable of are going to be very different from someone like me the next system over. Fairytales and folklore ever mask the truth, whatever it is. So, if crappy lore comes along - lore I don't personally like - I just write it off as Tzeencthian cultist trickery, and put hunting the jerks down on my ever growing todo list.

 

No rest for the Knights.

[Gentlemanloser]

I still hate the "there is no canon".  When there *obviously* is.

 

It's just lazy.  GW don't want to go to the hastle of making sure thier writers all write something internally consistant, so they simply don't bother.

 

Even if you just accept that;

 

1: There is an Emperor of Mankind

 

Then there's canon.  Right there.

 

Edit;

 

The settings canon then snowballs from there.

 

There is an Emperor.  That's canon.

 

He made some Primarchs.  That's canon too.

 

He made some legions.  Canon.

 

There was a Heresy.  He fought one of his Primarchs.  The legions got broken down into Chapters.  All canon now.

 

Orks fought one of the chapters.  Tyranids fought another.  They're canon.

 

And on and on.

 

 

 

Even if I suspect SMs exist, my idea of what they look like or what they're capable of are going to be very different from someone like me the next system over.

 

This is an easy trap to fall into.

 

This is in in world pov.  And not one of someone outside, viewing the canon of the setting.

 

An in setting pov can and probably should, differ vastly to an all knowing outside world one.

 

Edit: None of us live inside the 40k universe. ;)

[jeffersonian000]

There is no canon because 40k is future mythology. It's full of contradictory tales, epic poems, and heroic feats take fill a tapestry of myth and legend. The issue most of us have is that the setting tells us there is nothing new, so each time something new is added, it comes with an ancient background lost in time.

 

For me, I see 40k from the point of view of a student in 50k researching the deeds of 10,000 to 20,000 year old heroes from a time of heroes, going "w t f ?!?!?! That makes no sense!"

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

I've no issue with ret-cons.  They happen all the time.

 

GW just need to man up and admit they've ret-conned something (like the Deathwings origin), rather than try to ignore the issue with the blatantly false "there is no canon" statement.

 

Which is very obviously not true.  In any fashion.

 

If there is no Canon, then the Horus Heresy never happened, all the Space Marines are female, and Malus is the 5th Chaos God. ;)

 

Oh, and I'm the Emperor.

[thade]

There is a "loose canon." Here's A. D-B. on the topic: link.

 

Interestingly, as creators in this setting, we’re under no strict obligation to reference one another, and cooperation is usually self-driven. (The exception to this is the Horus Heresy series, which is extremely well-organised, and all of us are in constant communication.) Sure, editorial prefers it when stuff ties in together, but it’s not a mandate. Everyone views the setting differently, after all.

 

I still have an email in my inbox from my editor, asking “Why didn’t you reference X in your novel?”

 

I also have my reply. It says, quite simply, “Because X sucks, and so does the guy who wrote it.”

 

That’s show business for you.

[Gentlemanloser]

RD, just scoured the old Daemonhunters Codex.

 

I could find no reference to the number of Grey Knight Grand Masters, nor to the number of founding members of the Grey Knights.

 

That this has no been codified into 8 (+2), for 10 x 100 Marines, shcokingly similar to Codex Chapters, although we bear *zero* adherence to the Codex, is purely down to the whim of Ward.  Who is well known to love the Ultras (and the Codex Astartes with them).

 

The "Grey Knight Military Organisation" box also mentioned *nothing* about companies, rather that Grey Knights join a Squad.  And that Squad goes out, away from the rest of the chapter, to fight.  The GK, in thier DH origins, fought *very much akin* to the Deathwatch.

 

With as I said above, the GK 'kill teams' being set Squads, rather than individuals temporarily pulled together.

 

As for GK ships, it mentions that they are piloted by the 'most trusted captain and finest Navigators of the Navis Nobilte'.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

There is a "loose canon." Here's A. D-B. on the topic: link.

 

As I said above;

 

 

 

Part of the problem is that 40K lore is essentially divided into 3 sub-companies all producing material, and as with all things, quality, themes, perceptions and intentions can be completely different.

 

GW don't care to oversee all this, and make sure there's internal consistency.

 

Oh, and isn't the official line that all three are GW?  There's no separate companies, right?

 

I totally agree that there are separate parts of the company, and all have the purview to 'create IP/canon'.  What I disagree with is that GW can hand wave away overseeing this with "it's all real, none of it is real".

 

That's just editorial cop out.

[Sothalor]

"Editorial cop out."

Huh, it's almost like their recent rules, consisting of "We can't be assed, buy our stuff and figure it out yourself."

[Lucien Eilam]

The "Grey Knight Military Organisation" box also mentioned *nothing* about companies, rather that Grey Knights join a Squad.  And that Squad goes out, away from the rest of the chapter, to fight.

 

In Realm of Chaos, they were organised as an ordinary Chapter, complete with Tactical and Devastator squads.

 

In Index Astartes, Grey Knights were promoted to the 1st Company, who were trained to use Terminator armour, just like any other Chapter. Which obviously implies the existence of other companies.

 

I'm not aware of any source suggesting there are more than a thousand of them, but several describing them as being like other Space Marine Chapters, or stating definitively that they're limited to ~1,000 men.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

but several describing them as being like other Space Marine Chapters

 

Apart from the 3rd Edition Codex, which describes them as having nothing to do with the Codex Astartes and being nothing like a normal Chapter.  And specifically not being promoted through Companies, but Ranks, individually.

 

Which we had for a little over 10 years?

 

 

 

I'm not aware of any source suggesting there are more than a thousand of them

 

I think this was always implied by the Battle of Armageddon.

 

If they are like a 1000 Marine Chapter, then losing their entire 1st Company (100 GK in TDA) would have literally destroyed the Chapter, and made it impossible for them to do the job they have to do.

 

While a heavy loss, the GK were able to absorb that, without any noticeable dip in performance.  Which should imply there are more than the usual amount of GK in existence.

[Lucien Eilam]

I think this was always implied by the Battle of Armageddon.

 

If they are like a 1000 Marine Chapter, then losing their entire 1st Company (100 GK in TDA) would have literally destroyed the Chapter, and made it impossible for them to do the job they have to do.

 

No it wouldn't. The Imperial Fists lose more than that in the average week. Crimson Fists lost 600 at Rynn's World. The Blood Angels were down to their last 50 Marines at one point, back to full strength 6 centuries later.

[Gentlemanloser]

Of their Veterans?  Crimson Fists were just about destroyed by Rynn's world.

 

"In addition to losing their fortress and nearly 60 percent of their brethren"

 

"with the Chapter almost completely wiped out. As a result, Kantor's primary focus is currently on rebuilding the Chapter"

 

While 100 GK is only 10% of the entire Chapter (if we go by 1,000 total) it also is significantly easier to replace 'normal' Marines over Grey Knights.  If you go by the recent Codex, it takes 1 in a Million Psykers to make a single Grey Knight.

 

Loosing the entire First Company (what 100 TDA Marines would be equivalent to) would impact the GK much more heavily than any other Chapter.

 

If there was only 1000 of them to protect the entire Galaxy from Daemonic Invasions.

 

 

Heck, Armageddon would be akin to losing 100 Million Space Marine Psykers (well, that depends on how many make the cut, but you get the point...), all 'veterans' trained in the use of TDA.  That's nothing to take lightly...

 

Edit: Lets not forget, Chapters usually have set areas they look after (or Crusade in).  The GK have to defend the entire Imperial Space.

 

With only 1,000?

 

Nope.

[thade]

 

Part of the problem is that 40K lore is essentially divided into 3 sub-companies all producing material, and as with all things, quality, themes, perceptions and intentions can be completely different.

 

GW don't care to oversee all this, and make sure there's internal consistency.

 

Oh, and isn't the official line that all three are GW?  There's no separate companies, right?

 

The lore-writers for GW certainly care about what they're crafting, they just don't care to be pinned down by trying to enforce some sort of master canon which, honestly, would be a combination of people throwing their weight around ("My idea is better!" vs. "I've been here longer!" vs. "I got to the topic first!") and huge logistical overhead (how many titles in the library, how many said a certain thing about how power armor works vs. another thing, how do we judicate which makes more sense than the other, etc.).

 

It would be a pretty monumental task to establish a comprehensive canon: a fact that few acknowledge...maybe since acknowledging just how insanely difficult it would be would actually establish a universally accepted canon would mean it's insane to be sad about not having one.

 

The whole problem would be compounded by the fact that we, the players, have license to create our own chapters and stories within the space...but instead it's effectively solved by that empowerment. We can patch things up, as it were, rejecting things we dislike and filling in the gaps as we wish. And even if we disagree (as we often do) it still fits the setting because nobody can ever know the truth.

 

Well, maybe the Emperor can. And the Laughing God. Otherwise, even those powerful enough to consider the full scope of the Grimdark don't really care to. They're too busy being Chaos Gods. As for the rest of us, we only "know" there are Chaos Gods because it's part of the setting that the vast majority of us all accept as canon.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thade, *all* of that is solved by someone at GW taking charge.

 

Like an editor in charge of the lore.

 

My idea is better, no mine.  Actually *this* idea is what we're running with, said the Editor in charge of Lore/Continuity.

 

As for fan made stuff, there's always fan made stuff, and fan made stuff is by definition, not canon.

 

Unless at some point of course someone at GW (maybe the geezer in charge of Lore/Continuity) decides to adopt something fan made as canon...

 

 

That it would now be a monumental task is purely the failing of GW to have actually managed this in the past.  It's like leaving your bedroom untidied until it becomes so big a job you shy away from tackling it, and decide to just close that room of the house off.

[jeffersonian000]

Anyone besides me remembers the old 40k bible, a collection of all of the lore in 40k in chronological order, including sections on technology, religion, races, and the ruinous powers? That was an awesome document!

 

SJ

[thade]

Thade, *all* of that is solved by someone at GW taking charge.

Sorry, sir, but this is just too simplistic a notion, considering all of the backlog of stuff. It's huge.

 

The amount of work it would take to annotate and unify all data across every GW publication (as well as deeming what needs to be removed from the mythos to make things work) is pretty staggering. How many publications are there? How many different authors over the years? How many authors are still on the payroll and producing who won't want to go back and rewrite stuff because "the one true way power armor actually works" is laid out?

 

Of course, they could jettison everything and then have one person as the "buck stops here" spot, who henceforth shuts down on artistic license for all the authors, and has enough time to thoroughly pre-read, annotate, and critique every single book, article, and back-of-the-box blurb prior to it going into print.

 

Because that sort of bottleneck won't slow everything down so much that...oh. Wait.

 

Even if they did start from scratch, it would still slow things down, frustrate the authors, and not really make any of us happy.

[thade]

Anyone besides me remembers the old 40k bible, a collection of all of the lore in 40k in chronological order, including sections on technology, religion, races, and the ruinous powers? That was an awesome document!

Well, as I understand it, that doc was written by fans, not GW.

 

So...I expect several of you to compile an updated document for us all, so we can trot it to GW and show them how easy it is.  Super easy, right?

 

Super easy. They're just lazy. Pesky GW people.

 

++ EDIT. Typo. -t ++

[jeffersonian000]

Having an actual editor in charge of lore would not not slow things down, rather it would speed things up in that an author can have a neat idea, back check with the lore guy to get additional information, then precede on writing the new fiction. We fans would appreciate the connectivity in-universe, and GW might see sales increases from non-fans that enjoy immersive reading without all of the confusing continuity errors.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Sorry, sir, but this is just too simplistic a notion, considering all of the backlog of stuff. It's huge.

 

Yes, it's a simple notion.  Get a geezer in charge, and do the work.  Simple.

 

Yes, it's now a huge job, due to leaving it untouched for decades.

 

Still doesn't mean that *it should not be done*.

 

It should.  Ignoring it is the worst option possible.  And one none of us should accept.

 

 

 

Having an actual editor in charge of lore would not not slow things down, rather it would speed things up in that an author can have a neat idea, back check with the lore guy to get additional information, then precede on writing the new fiction. We fans would appreciate the connectivity in-universe, and GW might see sales increases from non-fans that enjoy immersive reading without all of the confusing continuity errors.

 

Or Thade, in the current situation, you can have a writer, start writing their manuscript, get half way through, and find out it *all* has to be written, as some other dude, in some other part of the company, has written a Codex that now makes your story invalid.  And you have to start from scratch again.  *After* you have got information form this other dude, when he's ready to give it to you, so your new attempt isn't invalid...

 

That seems like a lengthy process...

 

Something that a guy overseeing all this could have stopped happening.

 

 

 

Super easy. They're just lazy. Pesky GW people.

 

A GW guy would get paid to do this in his work time.

 

I'd have to give up personal/family time instead.

 

Why should I?

 

GW should *pay* an employee to do this.

[DarKnight]

 

Sure, a 400 year old Astartes might know a thing or two about how to run a void battle, but not a novice still learning to follow orders from his squad leader. Just because Astartes are high on growth hormones and bio implants doesn't mean each one is an Ender Wiggans or a Creed.

SJ

 

I dunno about that last part.

 

Mr D-B has been pretty vocal about the misconceptions of Astartes tactical doctrine in the past. Last Black Library weekender he even got a little heated explaining to a few fans how the line level Ultramarines were more tactically adept than the greatest human military mind to have ever been produced in our time.

 

Forgive me if I get off topic but this was exactly the issue I had with the otherwise excellent John French story, 'The Crimson Fist' There was IMO no way an Astartes (Polux) should be able to outmanuver a Primarch (Perturabo) for ANY reason. Anyway, continue guys :)

[thade]

I'm not saying it "shouldn't" be done, GML; I wouldn't mind someone hammering out a strict canon. Frankly, the Grimdark is in my opinion the single best setting there is. I've spent days pouring over the Lexicanum site, re-re-rereading articles on just about everything. (I'm sure I'm not the only one to burn time that way.) If there is a "40k Bible" in my mind, that's it. Community-sourced and edited like Wikipedia, though on a smaller scale.

 

At the same time, I acknowledge just how much worker-hours it would take for anybody to go through the entire Lexicanum (for instance) which itself is only a portion of the full space, and map out a True Canon that henceforth must be obeyed. It's a ton of work. A *ton*. We can't reduce how much work it really is by blithely claiming "Someone should be paid to do it!" We have to really think about just how much effort it would take.

 

It's that last part I'm asking that each of you really consider here: how many hours would it take you to make it happen? More than a full-time job to do a good job of it. Much more.  And hiring more than one person for the job isn't the fix either, as more cooks = more cooperation overhead. It really spirals out of feasibility quickly.

 

Not to mention, given the trend of the quality in much of the rulebook lore these days, I'm not sure I'd trust GW to appoint anybody to the task.

 

Unless it was me. Or A. D-B. Let's go with Mr. D-B.

GW, you can't afford me. But call me. I'll hear you out.

[thade]

Having an actual editor in charge of lore would not not slow things down, rather it would speed things up in that an author can have a neat idea, back check with the lore guy to get additional information, then precede on writing the new fiction. We fans would appreciate the connectivity in-universe, and GW might see sales increases from non-fans that enjoy immersive reading without all of the confusing continuity errors.

This just doesn't seem realistic to me at all. One person being the bottleneck for all productivity in BL and GW publishing could only slow everything down. They'd need to read everything prior to it going to print, to make sure the authors (who've had free range almost the entire time) don't sneak anything through.

Even setting aside just how much preparation one would need to do for this role (i.e. conduct an intense study and memorization of all existing publications) it's still an unreasonable amount of work. "Read this manuscript. Okay, read this revision. Still not good enough? Okay, read this one."

 

How is this speeding up anything?