The Emperor's Gift (Discussion)

[Gentlemanloser]

And hiring more than one person for the job isn't the fix either, as more cooks = more cooperation overhead.

Sure it would. That's why you have departments, and project managers. It's how the world runs.

So if GW can't get away with a Lore Editor, then get a Lore Department, with the Chief Editor calling the shots.

Chief Editor: Bob, I need a word with you. You let C.S. Goto slip in a Marine using a Multilaser, again. Fix up mister...

Thade, you know what another game I played had to expedite these issues? A Writers 'bible'. Listing the behind the scenes 'truth' of the setting, what stuff did, who was who, etc.

So independent writers who came along had guidelines to follow to ease their work into continuity.

40K could *easily* have a document like this for employees.

Power Armour does this. Bolt guns work this way. There are no female space marines. No Multilasers.

Etc.

[thade]

And hiring more than one person for the job isn't the fix either, as more cooks = more cooperation overhead.

Sure it would. That's why you have departments, and project managers. It's how the world runs.

Rather, how it doesn't run. Though a discussion on large firms falling apart and the vagaries of the stock market are out of scope here, suffice it to say: there's a reason that adding more and more middle management (the trend of larger companies) correlates with a trend towards companies going stagnant, dying, or splitting up. More cooks does not mean things get done faster; it's analogous to the reason why two CPUs working together aren't twice as fast as a single CPU, why three CPUs aren't 3x faster, etc. Those CPUs need to take (frequent) breaks from doing actual work in order to make sure the other CPUs on task haven't found things that disagree with them, and resolve that issue when it inevitably happens.

So if GW can't get away with a Lore Editor, then get a Lore Department, with the Chief Editor calling the shots.

Throwing more money at the problem 1. doesn't solve everything and 2. is definitely not something we can or should expect GW to do here. Even if such a team could be assembled and reasonably expected to do the job, GW wouldn't pay for it. Not ever. So, don't segue your response back to "But they should pay for it!!" since, you know, they won't.

40K could *easily* have a document like this for employees.

You keep using the word "easily", which tells me you continue to ballpark very, very low estimates on time and complexity for this new team of Lore Keepers to trudge through all of it, make sure it all makes sense altogether, and cut out the stuff they can't make work.

There is a "loose canon" which accounts for the things you enumerate there, which is pretty well established within the BL group at this point. But "loose" is the operative term there. Not "should" or "easy". "Loose."

[Gentlemanloser]

It is an easy job.  Probably something that could be knocked together in only a full days paid job.  By a single dude.

 

Doesn't have to start as a substantial 500 page Document, and can be added to as required.

 

Just begin as a general guidline all writers look too, before starting work.

 

 

 

GW wouldn't pay for it. Not ever. So, don't segue your response back to "But they should pay for it!!" since, you know, they won't.

 

Then there's no point discussing this.  Neither of us have any impact with GW in any shape or form, and we can't influence any changes.

 

If we can't discuss what *should* be done, but rather only what GW will, then we might as well stop.

 

As we both know they won't do anything.

[thade]

Then there's no point discussing this.  Neither of us have any impact with GW in any shape or form, and we can't influence any changes.

 

If we can't discuss what *should* be done, but rather only what GW will, then we might as well stop.

 

As we both know they won't do anything.

On the contrary, they have done some things. They've empowered us to add our own bits to the story (in the way of DIY chapters and custom local campaigns) using their works and rules as a framework for doing so; they've given us license in amending both their lore and their rules as is necessary to fit our local scenes; and they've provided us some really spectacular models to work with.

 

I mean, if I sound overly positive here it's because: why else would I be here? This is a hobby. I do it for fun. If I didn't enjoy it and forgive it its imperfections, I'd just mosey on elsewhere and spend my money there. Nothing binds me to this hobby. If the lack of an end-all-be-all canon got to me in the way it seems to get to some of you all, I'd have buggered off ages ago...because, you're right. Raging about it in a forum (even this beautiful one here) probably isn't going to instigate change in GW's operations. It would just get me worked up and ruin my afternoon. (Repeatedly, by some accounts.)

 

Honestly, I don't even like much of the BL stuff I've looked at closely. In my opinion, A. D-B. is the best author at BL; he's good enough that he could easily get along writing his own stuff elsewhere. I'm lucky he loves the setting even more than I do.

 

...Prot. Have you finished the book yet?!

[Prot]

Just about... I only get a few minutes before bed reading it lately. lol

 

I am on Armageddon finally.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

On the contrary, they have done some things. They've empowered us to add our own bits to the story

 

lol They've done nothing of the sort.

 

Fan fiction has and will always be there.  We don't need GW to do anything to let us add our own bits to the story.

 

People don't create home made chapters because somewhere GW have said they can.  They create them because they want to, regardless of GW.

[Adeptus]

Anyone besides me remembers the old 40k bible, a collection of all of the lore in 40k in chronological order, including sections on technology, religion, races, and the ruinous powers? That was an awesome document!

 

SJ

Hell yes, I think I still have a copy somewhere in my bookshelf, printed out during my highschool computers class back in 1994!

Let me just say, the things that happen before (and even ON) Armageddon, are really just the prelude to the main story...

[Psilence]

I like the name given to him by the wolves after :)

[Dread]

Welcome Psilence. This is a great site and forum and nice to have you. I've been *lurking* a lot and reading a lot of what is being said. Most of it I agree with and some not so much. At this point and time I have to say that when I play I've pretty much stopped all of my armies except Eldar and Necrons, while my GK may an apprence once in a blue moon. The luster for the game has lost appeal around are gaming group. Mostly on hold while we have moved on to x-wing fighter and Firefly. Both games have great rule systems and are fun, no gripping or whanting and they don't break the pocket book so hsrd. Money has become an issue for us as players that we simply have to look at gaming and want to have more fun then people who sit and whine.

[Adeptus]

Playing X Wing and seeing how they manage competitive play really highlights the deficiencies of 40K in that area. I can't take competitive 40K seriously at all anymore.

[jeffersonian000]

It's the sound .... of Psilence.

 

SJ

[Psilence]

glad to be here.

 

As a long time gamer (RT) it's been interesting to watch the evolution of 40k into its current state. While not perfect, the game itself and its setting are both still quite entertaining :)

 

My gaming group have 'slowed down' as well, due to both life (getting older, having kids, ect) and how the games parent company chooses to interact with its fan base.

 

GW would have to completely destroy the fluff for us to totally drop the game though. The history they've built into the future will always have us hooked :)

 

On topic: looking forward to prots thoughts after reading the fight against Angron.

 

Imagine what the entire chapter could do if deployed into one theatre >:)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

13th Black Crusade ;)

[Dread]

Watching it change thru the years has been great, 23+ err hmm, started with 2nd, hehe. But when sitting down to build a force you want to play with and realizing what you have to take to at least try to have a good time, it has really hit hard. I love my GK, it's my only completely painted army out of 6, but I think  I need to find a few more casual players around here to get the fun back.  I hear so many younger players around hear sitting down and math hammering it to death. I know that has always been a factor in this game and the amount of money I've supported GW employees with, I won't quit, just slow down. We have a 1st annual gaming con coming up and I'm hoping to use it to get back into the feeling of it knowing that it will be tourney set up armies, so my Necrons are dusted off for that.

 

As for the topic, I want to see that 13th black crusade myself! I also plan on reading it too but finishing up my Eldar and DE books right now.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Watching it change thru the years has been great, 23+ err hmm, started with 2nd, hehe. But when sitting down to build a force you want to play with and realizing what you have to take to at least try to have a good time, it has really hit hard. I love my GK, it's my only completely painted army out of 6, but I think  I need to find a few more casual players around here to get the fun back.  I hear so many younger players around hear sitting down and math hammering it to death. I know that has always been a factor in this game and the amount of money I've supported GW employees with, I won't quit, just slow down. We have a 1st annual gaming con coming up and I'm hoping to use it to get back into the feeling of it knowing that it will be tourney set up armies, so my Necrons are dusted off for that.

 

One thing I've found good not just for your own game enjoyment, but also to foster community, is to do a series of narrative-linked missions. Not everyone gets into it, but for those that do, it can be a lot of fun. I'm in the midst of running a League myself, and coming up with alternative scenarios and win-cons is fun. It's probably not very balanced or whatever, but people thus far aren't taking super-strong lists (well, a few exceptions, but eh). Even really simple stuff like challenging your local Daemon player to a scenario where he gets respawn from Reserve on infantry units and seeing how long you hold out. Eternal War is really just there as a baseline for pickup games. 

 

As for the topic, I want to see that 13th black crusade myself! I also plan on reading it too but finishing up my Eldar and DE books right now.

 

 

You can probably track down a digital copy of the campaign book. Getting a physical copy will be difficult, they're sought after and really rare by now. 

[Prot]

Prot finally finished. Words are hard for Prot, so please excuse my tardiness! 

 

Just fair warning that some of my observations are obviously after reading the end so... SPOILERs ahead!

 

This book actually really caught me off guard. Let's be honest, not a lot of Black Library stories really throw us a left hook, and that's not a slight against all the authors, it's just that we're dealing with a finite storyline with certain key endings already in place.

 

Honestly there's so many interesting things here we could probably talk about this for pages and pages. So I'll try my best to get my impressions into point form:

 

+ Wolves.+ I always loved these guys, and until Abnett I thought writers basically treated them like bolter porn with swigs of near toxic ale inbetween shots. I have to personally credit Abnett with changing that (there's a great story out there of how him and Graham McNeil were supposed to coin flip basically for who writes Prospero Burns from the 1K Sons perspective, and who writes it from the Wolves perspective, and basically Abnett decided to willingly take the 'short straw' and try to flesh them out more.)

 

How can you not respect these guys? One thing that I thought I might see more of though was an 'anti-psyker' angle. In Prospero Burns we see how Magnus who was used to having incredibly psychic supremacy over his foes, basically bounce off of the burly Wolves' Primarch Russ.

 

(Side note: For years I wondered if the Emperor gave some 'form' (for lack of better term) of the "Emperor's Gift" to Wolves to assist them in taking down marines, while being better equipped to defend themselves against psykers.)

 

Huge Moment: Grimnar. His Axe. Meeting the Grey Knight Captain's Chest. Fight over.  Wow. Did not see that coming. Seriously, sometimes we see epic battles that frankly I fade out of, but this was so utterly different, I kid you not, I read the passage 2-3 times to make sure I didn't miss a paragraph! Seriously.... But nope, it went from... his Falchions were barely drawn to... he was dead before hitting the ground. 

 

Wolves are bred, or so we've been told, in part to be the Emperor's hunters, (or lap dogs if you want to take that point of view) and it shows in this story. I think ADB handled Wolves with awesomeness in this piece. 

 

+ Hyperion.+ I kept waiting for him to become mega-awesome mini emperor. So many of ADB's main characters become God, but it never happened. That was a pleasant surprise. To see a point in the story where Hyperion (greatly outnumbered mind you) concedes that even after cracking Grimnar's Relic Blade, he would probably die to the Jarl. 

 

+ Hyperion + Grey Knights + Morals. Was anyone else disappointed when the Assassination does not go off? In hindsight, how different would this story have been? Probably far less interesting, but THIS is why I hate using inquisitors. You guys are always telling me to use allies, and I just think Grey Knights are best on their own. No one has to die (that shouldn't) and there isn't some political, poo flinger at the steering wheel, taking everyone on a joy ride to hell.  

 

Did anyone else think... maybe, just maybe the Grey Knights won't fire on Wolves? Won't fire on civilians? 

 

At first I thought the book was really about taking Angron down, but no, it quickly turned into a moral dilemma. ADB -nearly- humanizes Hyperion for us. He takes a stab at things like humour, and human conversation, relationships, but as much as it sours him, and Grimnar makes a VERY poignant remark about this near the end... it eating their pride, making Grey Knights -hate- the Inquisition, yet still Hyperion stays the course. So much so that his buddy Mal is brought in on the assassination scheme before his brother.

 

The moral dilemma (I think) is the story here. 

 

+ Grey Knights vs. Angron and friends+. Quite honestly parts of this were a let down to me. It started with a bang, and I thought it was very cool how Grimnar knew enough that the safest (Humanity wise) way to get things done would be to have the Wolves fight the path towards Angron, and just call in the GK to do what they do best. 

 

The appearance of so many Brothers, and their Aegis. The Aegis field was very cool, and even Hyperion and the rest see the pleasant surprise of this shockwave of the 'gift' flattening hordes of daemons.... what a cool scene to start with. 

 

The whole blade cracking scene is obviously huge, but I'm still foggy on what dealt the deathblow... it came across as a cloud of just everyone taking pot shots at Angron.  

 

The death of his brothers is well done... and a good example of the 'average' life of any Space Marine. The truly experienced, and senior Space Marines are truly a rarity in the universe.

 

+The Story after the Story+ Just being honest... I found the part -after- Angron to be much more interesting to me. But again it further solidified my distaste for the Inquisition and I still find a very faulty mechanic that just kind of bugs me where you have an organization that admittedly, almost inevitably seems to become corrupt, in charge of an organization that can't become corrupt. It creates a really weird dynamic.

 

Part of the mechanism that bothers me is I can see a trend where GK are doing things that they know they shouldn't be, (in small and big ways) and they're forced to capitulate to an inferior source of corruptible space police. 

 

A very good story, and obviously a depth that just wasn't in place previous to this novel. It sets up a really diificult task for the next author though because I don't think future novels can just be about Grey Knights burning daemons. That gets old fast, and there's some real stinkers out there right now. This one shows us some depth into the chapter, relationships, and the dynamics within the Imperium.

 

+ADB's touches + He usually gets me with his behind the scenes stuff- Some of my favorites:

- The bell on Terra. Great touch for Sothis.

- Tancred. Poor soul. I want to know more of that task, and how Hyperion fills it.

- The graveyard/psychic Null that takes the dead. Interesting.

- Hyperion's Relic Stave. Only in the end do we start to see him really leverage it against Grimnar with runes glowing... It would have been cool to see that develop.

 

I've blabbered on way too much. I apologize. It was just refreshing to read a Grey Knight story that wasn't the same old, same old.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The whole blade cracking scene is obviously huge, but I'm still foggy on what dealt the deathblow... it came across as a cloud of just everyone taking pot shots at Angron.  

 

Hyperion passes out just as Aurellian finally reaches Angron and issues his challenge, so yeah the banishment happens off-screen. 

But again it further solidified my distaste for the Inquisition and I still find a very faulty mechanic that just kind of bugs me where you have an organization that admittedly, almost inevitably seems to become corrupt, in charge of an organization that can't become corrupt. It creates a really weird dynamic.

 

The Imperium is full of contradictions and hypocrisy. It's the nature of the beast. The Emperor created the empire not for himself, but for humanity to take over. It's inevitable that a human empire is riddled with the same problems as the species itself. 

(Side note: For years I wondered if the Emperor gave some 'form' (for lack of better term) of the "Emperor's Gift" to Wolves to assist them in taking down marines, while being better equipped to defend themselves against psykers.)

 

Well don't forget, pure will can overcome psychic prowess (that's exactly what the Deny the Witch roll represents in game). The Space Wolves also use primitive totems and runes to ward themselves against the warp. They can still fall to corruption though. I don't think the Emperor needed to make them especially good at murdering other Astartes, he just had to make Russ the way he was. 

I kept waiting for him to become mega-awesome mini emperor. So many of ADB's main characters become God, but it never happened. That was a pleasant surprise. To see a point in the story where Hyperion (greatly outnumbered mind you) concedes that even after cracking Grimnar's Relic Blade, he would probably die to the Jarl. 

 

Well that was kind of the point of the whole Angron scene. It takes the entire 100 working together, dying together, to take him down. Most of the 100 die fighting the bodyguard Bloodthirsters, but their sacrifice delivers Castian close enough. Angron proceeds to rek the squad, but their unity keeps some alive. Hyperion does go super, but only on the defense (his telekinesis stops and then breaks a daemon blade). And after disarming Angron, Aurellian finishes the job. 

Part of the mechanism that bothers me is I can see a trend where GK are doing things that they know they shouldn't be, (in small and big ways) and they're forced to capitulate to an inferior source of corruptible space police. 

 

No it's actually a lot simpler. Even when creating his final weapon for humanity, the Emperor put in deliberate safeguards. It's proven effective, as between the close eye of the Inquisition and the Chapter's own vigliance, not a single brother has fallen in 10,000 years. 

 

I mentioned before that the Inquisition is self-correcting. Being too puritan and narrow minded means you have no friends and thus limited impact. Being too heretical means you get branded traitor and purged. All Inquisitors sit somewhere on that spectrum, and have to navigate the muddied politics of the Imperium and their own order at the same time. It's both the strength and weakness of the Inquisition; it's so varied that no one philosophy or ideology can prevail, but at the same time no one can go too far off the rails or they get purged. 

- Tancred. Poor soul. I want to know more of that task, and how Hyperion fills it.

 

Our codex has a bit more detail I believe. I think 'Emperor's Gift' does a pretty good job of describing the prognostication process. 

- The graveyard/psychic Null that takes the dead. Interesting.

 

The most likely explanation is that the ferrymen are Pariah's given the Emperor's Gift. They're not actual Grey Knights, but the Chapter can't waste it's fighting strength on tending to the tombs. Plus, it needs individuals who can protect the sanctity of the dead. So, they're basically like Exorcists, but pariah's as well. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd love those Grave Tenders to be a new GK Unit in our next Dex. ;)

 

Psychic Null Grey Knights!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Haha if only. I don't think they ever leave Titan, or even the Dead Fields (the whole ritualistic hand-off makes it seem like they are left to their own devices). 

[jeffersonian000]

I don't know about needing a new unit, however, a Culexus assassin modeled as a lone Astartes in robes as a certain symmetry to it.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

If we're actually gonna be a proper army with our 8th Edition Codex, we need a lot of new units. :(

[Adeptus]

I'm glad you've finished it! It's always interesting to see different peoples opinions on the different factions. I've always seen it as the Wolves deliberately causing greater mayhem in order to avoid a distasteful task. Those civilians NEEDED to be purged in order to prevent even greater strife, but the Wolves thought it wrong, so they fought against what was (IMO) a justified and necessary action, and caused far more damage as a result.

 

On a personal note, I found the Logan/Joros scene very OTT in favour of the Wolves. I would have written that scene differently.

[Shadrach03]

So I was just reading through our codex and found that they mention Stern and Crowe as being survivors of the battle with Angron.

[thade]

I like your synopsis, Prot.
 
My favorite part of the entire story is when

 

Bjorn trots out and lectures the Inquisitor. Made me think we should just put Bjorn in charge.

 

[Prot]

Yea, I agree Thade. I really don't think they are self policing. It's just a car accident waiting to happen. 

 

While Grey Knights obviously can't be in charge I really dislike the constant vibe of the Inquisition pushing GK's into situations, or just pursuing personal agendas.