The Emperor's Gift (Discussion)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It's the risks of any human organisation. The Emperor knew that when he founded the Inquisition. Did it anyway, because there is no viable alternative (Astartes can't be in charge, as Horus proved). The Imperium can't function waiting for the High Lords to slowly enact changes or respond to threats. The Inquisition cuts through the torpid vastness of the empire, and puts out embers before they can flare up into firestorms. 

[thade]

Yea, I agree Thade. I really don't think they are self policing. It's just a car accident waiting to happen.

Yea, totally. Like Darius says, it's a risk with any human-run org, but (I can't kick this horse enough, dead as it may be) the scale here is really the problem. Billions and billions of worlds most of which teaming with billions and billions of human lives. You know how much trouble we have managing a single country on Earth right now...and we don't have the problem (yet) of sufficiently complex computers trying to murder us (see: Dark Age of Technology, Men of Iron) so we can use software to try and help us organize and collab.

 

And we suck at it.

 

The Inquisition itself is a huge organization, itself spanning the Empire with it's "small" number of operatives (anybody know how many? I'd always guessed in the thousands) all acting independently (like wild west Marshalls or bounty hunters) recruiting and training their own apprentices, very loosely organized even within a given Ordo (maybe only in name) and since everybody's idea of what's 'Right' varies so widely (again, even within a given Ordo) "self-policing" comes down to Might makes Right with a side of "I have more friends with me right now than you do."

 

That's precisely the way things kind of play out in The Emperor's Gift here, right? The Inquisitor that manages to wrest control due to superior resources, acting in the way he thinks is correct, cows only to something that 1. conforms to his belief system and opinions and 2. is more bad ass than he:

Bjorn the Felhanded.

And, as already referenced, another disagreement in the book came to blows and cost the (very, very, very expensive life) of a GK boss dude.

 

I wish the =][= were better organized, but they're really just not, haha. None of the Imperium is.

 

[Prot]

Well... obviously I'm no Emperor, but I'm pretty sure if I was, I would have left Chuck Norris in charge of the Inquisition. I'm pretty certain he could have cleaned it up.

I have multiple views of (Spoiler Alert)

The death of the GK boss dude

1. The Grey Knight in me says it should have been a better fight, but...

2. It was a shock, and refreshing to not have a 10 page super human fight that ends in yet another tie.

3. The Wolves fan in me accepts that Grimnar is a fierce warrior. The GK Boss could very well have thought himself above such a situation, or perhaps Wolves not 'allowing' him to sense the forthcoming actions, or the entire scene seemingly could not dare go to a full battle aboard an Inquisition vessel.

The truth is it would never happen again, because no GK boss, no one on that ship would under estimate a SW, nor how far they'll go. But it did happen. I respect ADB for not appeasing the GK in me, and not taking the high road with the 10 page tie game.

I know this rubs a lot of GK fans the wrong way, but accept that if/when it happens the other way around, you'll hear no end of complaints from our SW brothers.

The sad thing is I'm reading another GK novel and it's really getting hard to read it already. It doesn't motivate me to paint, or play, or create like Emperor's Gift did.

There is a repetitive nature to this stuff I don't like. I think some real imagination is necessary to break the mould but whenever someone does it, they're accused of breaking fluff, or taking a bad turn in the future history. But if we don't have these risk takers, then we just read about a bunch of silver Knights, ripping through Space Hippies in the same boring manner.

On a sad note, I really felt we would or should see more of Hyperion but it appears by how the story ends we will not. This sucks all the way to Titan and back.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well hopefully ADB returns to Titan again sometime. Maybe after the Abbadon series is done, the 13th Black Crusade will be back on the timeline. 

[thade]

I remember A. D-B. said at some point he was trying to get permissions to do a Sisters take, but maybe I hallucinated that.

 

The Space Wolves were sent out to tackle the Thousand Sons; I haven't read a lick of that beyond the Lexicanum stuff, and it's been ages. (I know, I know.) Do they not have some method of mitigating or interfering with psykers? At least some anti-psyker training by their own librarians, right?

 

Maybe the GK boss dude really had nothing but his pride and (incorrect) expectations to go on? He couldn't predict what the SW could do as he couldn't see a partial future or read Grimnar's mind at all?

 

Then again, it's not as though Grimnar spent much time thinking about that attack.

 

 

[Prot]

Agreed. ADB has to return to this story. :D

 

But yea Thade I was thinking the same thing about that fight.  But as I said, I don't think anyone would make that mistake again. :)

 

 

 

It was cool to see "Blade Breaker" put that skill to work on Grimnar's Relic blade, wasn't it?

 

 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I wouldn't overthink it. Logan is arguably one the best warriors in existence. He was just a little faster and he only needed one blow to get the job done. 

[jeffersonian000]

I believe the intent was to show that Logan's attack required no thought, therefore no trigger for Joro to react to, which implies that Joro's martial prowess was based solely on his ability to read his opponent hence why he under-reacted to Logan. Which is to say that the GK cheats, and Logan is a Mary Sue.

 

SJ

[Prot]

Mary Sue? He may have long hair, but would probably take offense to that. ;)

 

I think that is a part of it... and it's established that Wolves do have some (at least a minor) ability to prevent or deflect at least minor psychic abilities. I still also think there is a belief by Joro that this couldn't possibly escalate to bloodshed of brother vs brother.... on top of that aboard an Inquisition ship.

 

I really despised that Inquisitor. It further makes it very difficult for me to field one. I enjoyed the Dan Abnett Inquisitor novels, but most of them just irritate me. Call it the Grey knight in me, but if I found some Inquisitor buffoon posturing with me as his 'shield', it wouldn't take long for him to have an 'incident' with my ship's toilet waste dispenser right into the cold void of space.

 

The Grey Knights at the end are made to be the bad guy largely because of the Inquisitor. I think that's a pretty massive miss use of Imperium assets if I ever saw one.

[jeffersonian000]

He's a Mary Sue because he has no flaws that aren't in themselves also strengths. He attacks without thought, yet his attack is honorable and perfectly timed. With his flaw being a strength, he is a Mary Sue just like Mary Sue Calgar.

 

SJ

[Lord Blackwood]

I wouldn't overthink it. Logan is arguably one the best warriors in existence. He was just a little faster and he only needed one blow to get the job done. 

#Choppy Dudes

 

He's a Mary Sue because he has no flaws that aren't in themselves also strengths. He attacks without thought, yet his attack is honorable and perfectly timed. With his flaw being a strength, he is a Mary Sue just like Mary Sue Calgar.

 

SJ

So like Draigo Then ?

[thade]

He's a Mary Sue because he has no flaws that aren't in themselves also strengths. He attacks without thought, yet his attack is honorable and perfectly timed. With his flaw being a strength, he is a Mary Sue just like Mary Sue Calgar.

 

SJ

I mean, his rashness is definitely a weakness; it's only a "strength" insofar as getting the drop on his opponent, but that's not the only element here, right? There's huuuuuge fallout due to this: really awkward tensions between two Imperial elements that really ought not to be wasting time and resources fighting amongst one another. That's a theme with the Imperium, of course: in-fighting because of recursive communication breakdowns (and hurt pride) and we're seeing it here in a big way. The Wolves are one of the original Legions and have a very long history dealing with psyker and demonic threats on their own. Now here's this (as they see it) young upstart of a "Chapter" (one that doesn't officially exist, mind you) telling them what's-what with regard to a thing they have (in their minds) more experience with.

 

So Logan acted out on his pride, his arrogance, his anger...none of these "strengths" are positives insofar as cooperation or camaraderie are concerned. This is why that dirtbag of an Inquisitor brought the right to the Space Wolves' doorstep, as it were.

[Prot]

That's interesting Thade. And while I agree with you.... you could also look at some of the 'absolutes' the Grey Knights deal with in having its own drawbacks.

 

I get that in the eye of the Inquisition the people had to die... they had to be cleansed. But they weren't, and what happened as a result? The Wolves are the other end of this issue taking it in the gut for poor old mankind thought of as the 'loose end'.

 

Interestingly enough they could have just virus bombed the planet and been done with it once the human factor was eliminated. I still don't know if judging an entire planet as tainted was the answer either though. Sure it made for great friction between the Wolves and GK, but even for mere 'people' that's a lot of resources and death on your hands.

 

I would have just kept them there, had the monitored heavily.... there are cases of daemonic incursions on less stable worlds that are still left to function. I realize the story becomes far more bland though....

 

Wolves bring a lot to the table, and I think they are a great counter balance to the GK. Together there's not much that could stand in their way. Its really a shame the story ended with bad blood like that.

[thade]

Precisely!

 

This gets back to the whole "self-policing" silliness, right? Here we have several Imperial elements all of which with ostensibly the same goal (prevent the spread of demonic presence) all of which with different ways of getting there and different reasons for wanting their own ways.

 

One of them cares not a lick for the lives on the planet: it is, after all, only one out of billions of worlds teeming with life...losing one is far better than losing more than one. Cut the cancer out and make damn sure you got it. If cancer in the finger means taking the whole hand, so be it. It's the cheapest and fastest way to be as near to 100% certain as possible.

 

One does care for the lives on that world, as they righteously stood their ground and have gained some respect for their tremendous courage. Sure, checking them all and mind-wiping them is far, far more costly and strictly less safe than just wiping them all out, but they've earned this cost and now warrant that risk.

 

Who decides which is right? One is ancient and has defended the Imperium longer than the other has existed. The other was created specifically to deal with situations like this. Both think they're right.

 

There are only two roads to compromise: conversation and violence.

 

We know how things play out there.

Everybody involved is deeply flawed. Logan, the GK, the Inquisitors. There are no exceptions.

 

That's why I enjoy A. D-B.'s work so much. You're hard pressed to find a "Mary Sue" in this book.

[Gentlemanloser]

What, apart from Logan?

 

The guy who's fast enough to pick up his axe from being embedded in the ground in front of him, and decapitate a GKGM, who is sated to be the fastest swordsman in the chapter, who Psychically reads his foes, and who was on edge facing Logan, with his hands on his blades, blades that are known to be the fastest weapons in the entire Imperium, backed by 100 brethren, who together have the psychic might to deflect blows from a Daemon Primarch?

 

No Mary Sue.

 

Right....

[jeffersonian000]

Draigo isn't a Mary Sue, though. Everything he did up until his banishment had costs, both personal and effecting the Imperium as a whole. His only over the top scene was bad narrative at best.

 

Logan on the other hand cannot do wrong. Every burst of anger leads to the most honorable of outcomes, every rash decision was the right decision, every rude jesture conveys just right amount of professionalism and dignity. And the only person that paused his onslaught was also the guy that shattered Angron's monstrous sword, a pause I might remind you that ended with Logan still in the right. That's pretty much the biggest Mary Sue in 40k.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh look, to escape Logan murders 5 innocent Justicars.

 

Yet is still in the right...

 

ADB's portrayal of Logan was, well the best I can put it is biased.

 

 

 

I still also think there is a belief by Joro that this couldn't possibly escalate to bloodshed of brother vs brother

 

Apart form Joro being the only person among the GK that wasn't held in awe by Logan.  Who was stated to be actively *wary* of him.

 

I'm sure Joro though this would end in bloodshed.  I'm also sure the Inquisitor had also prepped Joro of such before Logan's arrival.

[thade]

So, Jeff, you don't see the resulting struggles between the Inquisitional elements and the Wolves - which nearly result in an invasion attempt on Fenris - as a downside to Logan's outburst? Because I do.

 

Keep in mind that

Bjorn doesn't trot out to exonerate Grimnar. He trots out to chastise the lot of them for in-fighting and treating the Big E like a deity.

 

 

Logan's not painted up as if he can do no wrong, as you seem to imply. He in fact does wrong and the result is increased hostilities between the Wolves and the Inquisitor(s).

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Calling any of those characters a Mary Sue is silly and a misuse of the term. Breaking it down;

 

- Logan: 'He has no flaws that aren't also strengths': Wrong. The whole novel is basically about how the Wolves don't get along with others, don't respect the authority of the Inquisition, and are stubborn and proud to a fault. Hyperion even says he admires them for sticking to their principles, but he still think they're wrong and going to cause more problems with their actions. Which is exactly what plays out (a lot of people die for no reason other than the Wolves couldn't stick with the program). Also, Bjorn has to chastise Logan for letting things get so far out of hand. When Bjorn tells you you're being an reckless idiot, that's a pretty big deal for the High King of Fenris. 

 

Killing Joros served two purposes. It showed that the Wolves, whilst being patient and trying to hold the moral high ground, would not let treachery go unanswered. Secondly, it demonstrated why Logan is considered a hero by the people of the Imperium. He's not afraid to murder even someone as rare and powerful as a Grand Master of a Chapter that doesn't officially exist, if it means holding true to his principles and path. 

 

As for psychic resistance, one has to remember a fundamental principle of the warp. It works best on weaker minds and wills (like the Force in SW). In the Deny the Witch rule, it even tells us that without any psychic ability, a being can still resist psychic powers with sheer will alone. When you consider the kind of men Fenris breeds, and then are further refined by the Canis Helix and training of the Space Wolves, and their paradoxical hatred of sorcerors (they hold that Rune Priests take their power from Fenris alone, which is obviously untrue but it's one of those self-fulfilling prophecies), and their runes and totems...oh and don't forget they were given the job of razing Prospero. 

 

Oh, and I nearly forgot. The Axe Morkai is a chaos blade re-consecrated by the Rune Priests, and even then, it's still tainted by a bloodthirsty semi-sentience. It's entirely possible that it augments the wielders resistance to sorcery (it's heavily hinted that it's a Khornate weapon originally). 

 

- Draigo: I never tire of watching people misquote the codex (5th and 7th) in their efforts to misrepresent this guy. His weakness is that he's such an exemplary Grey Knight, he supplants the destiny of another who was supposed to be Chapter Master (it's hinted that it was supposed to be Stern). All that damage he causes in the warp? It's metaphorical, and it doesn't even last (because Chaos is eternal, and that's the whole point of Draigo's story). He's now been reduced to a plaything of the False Gods, having to watch helplessly whilst his Chapter fight on without him. He refuses to die or turn traitor, so his reward is eternal seperation from reality, punctuated only by brief battles before being sucked back into the warp. That's about as far from 'all powerful author insertion' character as you can get. 

 

In terms of ADB's other work, I'd rank Talos as the only character that comes close to Mary Sue territory. And even then, he's well written and given real pathos and traits that are not of benefit to him, and his ultimate fate is not a happy one. 

[Lord Blackwood]

I agree with Reclusiarch Darius , the sky is falling ,  xenos are the weak books  and games workshop has slashed prices by 80%  (  just listing things that happen with the same frequency.   

After doing some better research and talking to my grey knights player of a friend my comments about Draigo were a bit out of line , my apologies. 


As far as the Axe Morkai  yer absolutely correct there heres  an excerpt from  Champion of Fenris , the Logan Grimnar Great Company Supplement. 
 

The Chaos Champion Akor Doomflayer charged out of the ranks of the World Eaters, his rune-encrusted axe cutting down two of Grimnar’s Wolf Guard in the span of a few moments. Suddenly the Great Wolf found himself fighting for his life, Doomflayer’s insane fury pushing him back toward the Imperium’s defensive line. With an incoherent cry the Khornate Champion struck the flat of Grimnar’s frost blade, shattering it into a million glittering shards. Doomflayer’s moment of triumph was also his last, as the Great Wolf lunged inside his executioner’s swing, ripping off his skull-faced helm with a clawed hand and sinking his fangs into the exposed throat underneath. As Doomflayer fell into the bloody river Grimnar snatched up his opponent’s crimson-steel axe, cutting a path back to his Wolf Guard through knots of homicidal Khorne Berserkers. For the rest of the campaign on Armageddon Logan fought with the axe, and upon his return to Fenris he had it reforged, dubbing it the Axe Morkai.

 

Games Workshop Ltd. Champions of Fenris A Codex: Space Wolves Supplement (Kindle Locations 190-197). Games Workshop. 

[jeffersonian000]

I swear, I can never tell if RD is arguing with me or supporting me. It's mind boggling.

 

As to my point, no matter what Logan does, he's the hero. Defy the Inquisition and cause billions of unnecessary deaths? No problem! Logan's punishment is to publicaly chastised by being compared to a child. While still remaining a hero. The hero that caused billions of unnecessary deaths. Yeah, that guy. His greatest F Ups bring him nothing but praise and backhanded compliments.

 

Yet, the villains of the story are the pragmatic ones that follow the rules to prevent the worst from occurring. Yes, they are willing to kill millions to save billions, unlike Logan who is willing to kill billions to save millions. But it's the pragmatic ones that are the bad guys of this piece, not the brash God-child with the axe. The fact that the actual heroes of the story are the ones caught between the pragmatic Inquisition and the optimistic Wolves, the Grey Knights, who become dishonored in their own eyes when forced to deal with the Spave Wolf God-children that are acting out like spoiled teens.

 

That's what I got out of the book. That Space Wolves are rash children with too much power, that the Inquisition are evil for all the right reasons, while the GK are lesser become they are stuck being tools rather than the weapon they are meant to be. I love ADB's work, but this book sadden me a little. It's a good sadness, but still a sadness nonetheless.

 

SJ

[Happy-inquisitor]

Well, unless you're the Supreme Grand Master, who upon the culmination of years of preperation and countless lives sacrficed, refuses to do so when going to fight Mortarion.

 

I guess keeping his hair style intact was more important.

 

/shudder

 

What is it with Grey Knight Grand Masters? Do they suddenly become tactically inept the moment they take control of a Brotherhood?

Why did Hector go to his certain death in answering the challenge from Achilles? A lot of that heroic mindset has made it into the grim dark. sensible precautions are not heroically inspiring - unless you are Tau.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Killing Joros served two purposes. It showed that the Wolves, whilst being patient and trying to hold the moral high ground, would not let treachery go unanswered. Secondly, it demonstrated why Logan is considered a hero by the people of the Imperium. He's not afraid to murder even someone as rare and powerful as a Grand Master of a Chapter that doesn't officially exist, if it means holding true to his principles and path. 

 

Joro's dying is never the issue.

 

It's *how* he was killed.

 

That's the issue.

 

Fastest GK in the entire Chapter.  Most skilled GK with Blades in the entire Chapter.  Using the fasted H2H weapons in the entire Imperium.  Who psychically reads his foes.  Who was the only GK wary of Logan and not in awe.  Who had his hands on his weapons.

 

Killed *before* he can react, by a guy who had embedded his axe in the floor.

 

That's the issue.

 

How on earth is Logan *that fast*?  And if he is, then no, Hyperion doesn't survive their next meeting, and Logan can go kill Angron single handily. 

 

Logan is portrayed as just too damn good there.

 

There were ways to write that scene to be emotionally invoking for the right reasons.  Not the "ZOMG LOGAN IS SO OP" that it makes out.

 

 

Why did Hector go to his certain death in answering the challenge from Achilles?

 

Because he wasn't a Grey Knight Grand Master.

 

And Hector didn't go tot he battle and leave his armour off, just because it showed off his pecs better.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

As to my point, no matter what Logan does, he's the hero. Defy the Inquisition and cause billions of unnecessary deaths? No problem! Logan's punishment is to publicaly chastised by being compared to a child. While still remaining a hero. The hero that caused billions of unnecessary deaths. Yeah, that guy. His greatest F Ups bring him nothing but praise and backhanded compliments.

 

Did you even read 'Emperor's Gift?'. He comes *this* close to causing the extinction of the Space Wolves. Hyperion even notes this, that it would a huge loss to the Imperium if the Space Wolves were wiped out. Also, he earned the eternal enmity of the Inquisition and the High Lords. He's broken alliances and made extremely powerful enemies for his Chapter. 

 

That said, are the Inquisition going to denounce a well-loved hero of the Imperium? No. For starters, they'd have to explain why he's a heretic. Which would involve explaining that he fought for people's right to live at Armageddon. Risked his entire Chapter, to defend the lives of people he's never met and whom he owes nothing. That's about as heroic as you can get, and it resonates. The Space Wolves, like the Salamanders, have a reputation for throwing themselves in harms way to defend the weak and the innocent. So, instead, they do a deal with Logan (both sides knowing full well it's not over). 

 

Is it unfair that he gets away with murdering Joros? Maybe. One could argue that the Inquisition's attempt to murder Logan and breaking an oath of armistice, and getting away with it, are also unfair. The whole point of the novel is that justice is relative, but order is more important. Logan didn't see it that way, to both his credit and his detriment. 

Yet, the villains of the story are the pragmatic ones that follow the rules to prevent the worst from occurring. Yes, they are willing to kill millions to save billions, unlike Logan who is willing to kill billions to save millions. But it's the pragmatic ones that are the bad guys of this piece, not the brash God-child with the axe. The fact that the actual heroes of the story are the ones caught between the pragmatic Inquisition and the optimistic Wolves, the Grey Knights, who become dishonored in their own eyes when forced to deal with the Spave Wolf God-children that are acting out like spoiled teens.

 

I didn't come away from 'Emperor's Gift' seeing the Inquisition as the villain. I don't think any reasonable person would. They acted as they always have done, in the interests of the Imperium. I didn't see the Wolves as villians either. They're both acting for good reasons, but at cross-purposes. It was actually hard to cheer for either side. One the one hand, brutal but completely logical pragmatism. On the other, heroic but misguided stubbornness. Immovable object, meet unstoppable force. 

That's what I got out of the book. That Space Wolves are rash children with too much power, that the Inquisition are evil for all the right reasons, while the GK are lesser become they are stuck being tools rather than the weapon they are meant to be. I love ADB's work, but this book sadden me a little. It's a good sadness, but still a sadness nonetheless.

 

The Grey Knights were manipulated, it's true. But don't forget, they did so willingly. Joros was in command, and not one Grey Knight agreed with the Wolves. Not even Hyperion. At any time, Joros could've taken his brothers back to Titan, and turned his back on the whole mess. But they didn't, because they knew the consequences of inaction were actually worse than getting involved. And once committed, they were not going to deviate from their path. 

 

The Grey Knights have to operate beyond honour, beyond pride. They're the ultimate pragmatists. If they didn't, they would never be able to stop Chaos so consistently. 

It's *how* he was killed.

 

That's the issue.

 

Fastest GK in the entire Chapter.  Most skilled GK with Blades in the entire Chapter.  Using the fasted H2H weapons in the entire Imperium.  Who psychically reads his foes.  Who was the only GK wary of Logan and not in awe.  Who had his hands on his weapons.

 

Killed *before* he can react, by a guy who had embedded his axe in the floor.

 

That's the issue.

 

How on earth is Logan *that fast*?  And if he is, then no, Hyperion doesn't survive their next meeting, and Logan can go kill Angron single handily. 

 

Logan is portrayed as just too damn good there.

 

There were ways to write that scene to be emotionally invoking for the right reasons.  Not the "ZOMG LOGAN IS SO OP" that it makes out.

 

I don't know why this is such a sticking point. Logan Grimnar is the Chapter Master of the Space Wolves. By definition, you don't become the Great Wolf without first being one of the deadliest Astartes in existence. He's also wielding a semi-purified Khornate axe. 

 

I've already gone in depth as to why the scene had to occur, and why it's plausible Logan is that fast/Joros couldn't mind-bullet him first. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Logan Grimnar is the Chapter Master of the Space Wolves. By definition, you don't become the Great Wolf without first being one of the deadliest Astartes in existence. He's also wielding a semi-purified Khornate axe. 

 

You don't get to be the greatest swordsman in the GK chapter (based on the Emperors Gene Seed and all! :P) without first being one of the deadliest Astartes in existence.

 

A long, close drawn out battle would have been great.  Joro dying at the end a given.

 

But not this :cuss slap from out of nowhere.  That was unbelievable, and disrupted the suspension of disbelief.

 

Oh and Daemon Weapon?  HERETIC!  PURGE THEM ALL!!!

 

But sadly the Wolves aren't the Relictors, and can get away with seemingly *anything*.

 

Because, reasons. (Well, they are probably too popular to get the slapping they deserve.  Sadly.)