The Emperor's Gift (Discussion)

[thade]

 

Fastest GK in the entire Chapter.  Most skilled GK with Blades in the entire Chapter.  Using the fasted H2H weapons in the entire Imperium.  Who psychically reads his foes.  Who was the only GK wary of Logan and not in awe.  Who had his hands on his weapons.

 

Killed *before* he can react, by a guy who had embedded his axe in the floor.

 

That's the issue.

 

How on earth is Logan *that fast*?

I don't know why this is such a sticking point.

 

Either A beats B in almost every possible matchup or B beats A in almost every possible matchup. Except, of course, for all of the times one gets lucky, has an unfair advantage, or was underestimated.

 

I mean, sometimes the more skilled, better trained, better equipped, and all-around favored warrior goes down because somebody gets the drop on them. The person getting the drop isn't necessarily better...and could be a strictly worse fighter in every sense. Maybe that individual just got lucky.

 

I think this all is a sticking point for some of us here because the whole "Who would win in a fight?" mini-game doesn't really settle on a stalemate, right? Fans want to know which one would definitively win (and they especially want it to be their favorite) and to these ends they will argue in favor of one or the other.

 

I think it's particularly rough in 40k as - unlike, say, Marvel Comics or whatever, we have a well established (if often hated upon) ruleset that does in fact try to answer the question "Who would win in a fight"...though this ought to work against the whole game for the very reason I highlight above: "Probably A would win, but sometimes B will really luck out as the dice fall."

 

Logan got the drop on his adversary and managed to one shot him. Why did it play out this particular way? Why did the GK - who can see the future with his space magic and is the fastest draw in the West - not see this coming?

 

My take is that it's narrative in nature. The GK bossman's operative flaw here was hubris...and so was Logan's.

[thade]

For those of you who just can't get over the nitty gritty, let me dismiss this one question that comes up constantly as if it's ripping the linchpin out of the whole scene...because, it's not, and I think we're all maybe a bit tired of it coming up? (Maybe it's just me.)

 

But but but...the GK GM - whom nobody can remember the name of even though he's the fastest and bestest! - he can read minds!

 

Right, so. Why didn't he read Logan's mind the whole time and see the killing blow coming? Well, reading minds is invasive and is something people can be trained to recognize...and it can really come across as offensive, i.e. it implies the one doing the probing is above the target in the pecking order. (This is something The Emperor's Gift actually touches upon; recall Hyperion and the Paladins.)

 

Invasive. If someone is below you in the pecking order, you can just do it, right? Are Space Wolves (one of the original legions and an immeasurably tremendous asset to the Imperium) beneath the GK in the pecking order? No. The GK are equals at best since we 1. don't exist and 2. are tiny by comparison and 3. were created after and 4. take orders (suggestions, perhaps) from Inquisitors much more seriously than do Space Wolves (or any of the loyalist Legions for that matter).

 

Detectable. Space Marines, as part of their training, are trained to recognize and resist psychic interference by their in-house librarians. On top of that, the Space Wolves have a very, very long tradition of going counter demonic threat and sorcery, harkening back to that whole thing where they brought that pallet of pink slips to the Thousand Sons during the events of the Heresy. Stack on top of that the fact that Logan is the Chapter Master. He's going to be much better than, say, a rank-and-file Ultramarine at resisting and noticing psychic probes.

 

With all of that on the table, it doesn't surprise me in the least that the GK boss-guy failed to defend himself. Even if he wasn't prey to his own hubris, he didn't see the wolves as much of a threat due to politics; likely, the thought that Logan would resort to violence was furthest from his mind...and he wasn't about to go poking around in Logan's head because, honestly, it would've been offensive and escalated things. Remember that the Imperium's various elements - especially the ancient ones (Ad Mech, the Navigators Guild, =][=, the Legions, etc.) all get along even in the worst of times because of ancient pacts and a mutual (if at times forced or begrudging) respect.

 

Also, hubris: maybe the GK boss-guy didn't probe because he figured "Why bother, this guy will do what I say because I'm wearing shiny ar-"

 

He didn't finish that thought because, well, you know.

[Gentlemanloser]

Logan got the drop on his adversary and managed to one shot him. Why did it play out this particular way? Why did the GK - who can see the future with his space magic and is the fastest draw in the West - not see this coming?

Logan could have been more skilled. Could even have been faster. And no doubt would have won in the end of a duel.

But the issue is the pure lop sided setup to the outcome. It makes no sense.

Fastest draw in the west. Exactly.

Reading, and waiting. Hands on.

Beaten by someone out of position. Weapon not ready. Weapon stuck in the ground.

Yet able to get a single decapitation off, without any sort of reaction from the fastest man in the west.

Unbelievable that, right?

And set up *purely* in Logans favour. I mean, how much more of a disadvantage could we put Logan in? Maybe Logan should have had his hands tied. Already been beaten half to death by Angron.

Whatever.

He *still* would have one shot Joros.

And that's nothing by fan .

Make the fight realistic. Not fan service sensational.

Well, reading minds is invasive and is something people can be trained to recognize...

Not really.

Not the way Emperors Gift had shown it being used earlier numerous times in the book.

Shared Senses, without invasion.

Logan *could* have stopped that. Maybe. Maybe not. Thing is, Joros wouldn't even had needed it.

He was *ready* and already wary.

[Lord Blackwood]

I would have preferred a longer more drawn out fight as well. I don't think Logan needed to one shot the guy. Im not upset about it because I am a wolf player and a fan of Grimnar ( and his hyper sled of destiny )  But I can certainly concede that a nice couple page duel where the two guys were talking to each other , maybe even only communicating mentally about why logan was coming at him that would have been very interesting.  Then again if that happened then maybe no one has to die.


As a point of reffrence this whole thing sets up the end of the Sanctus Reach Campaign , where again Logan is involved in fighting against an ork  waagh which leads to khorne  sending in his boys cause he feels slighted about what happened on aramageddon.
He Ragnar and Krom ( 3 great companies )  are on  the planet and almost get killed by Khorne forces until they get saved by the imperial guard WHOM  LOGAN CHASTISED EARLIER IN THE CAMPAIGN THEN THEY COME OUTTA NO WHERE AND SAVE HIM AND THE REST OF THE SPACE WOLVES BUTTS  but that's a different story for another day.  Anyway the point is  at the end of the sanctus reach campaign logan leaves wolves to garrison Alaric Prime in order to defend it against the Inquisition who shows up to purge the planet for its taint  ( of course the campaign ends here  so we don't see what happens next ) 

- Source is Hour of the Wolf  ( There was also a small grey knights book that accompanied the campaign books but I  couldn't find it so I haven't been able to read it)


My second point is how serious it is to get scolded by Bjorn 
Bjorn the fellhanded was the right hand of the Primarch
He was the first great wolf and held the Chapter together after Russ Peaced out
Whenever he is awake he can effectively take operational control of any engagement he so wishes

When he scolds you  its a tremendous mark of shame.
I am sure that point is not lost on Logan even if its not adequately expressed in the book.




 

[Prot]

Honestly, I'm still fine with the way it went. Again these 20 page uber battles usually end in a tie, and there are a lot of circumstances that could have lead to Joro being 'lax' or even unsuspecting of the way that situation was going to play out.

 

Let's put it the other way: Is it impossible to believe that (circumstances permitting) Grimnar COULD have one shotted this Captain?

 

If it would have went on for several pages and ended up a tie (which is what we almost always see in these books) I would have been the first to call it out as a total bail out. ADB stuck his neck out a bit on this one and some feathers are rustled up as a result. I'm okay with that.

[thade]

Unbelievable that, right?

 

And set up *purely* in Logans favour.

I get that you wish the GK put up a better fight or won, as you'd find that qualitatively more enjoyable for yourself...but your spin on the sequence just doesn't make sense.

 

It's not "purely in Logan's favour". If it was, the GK wouldn't have insulted him, would've taken his opinions much more seriously and to heart, and it never would've come to blows in the first place. Logan acted out the way he did precisely because the setting there was NOT favorable to him or his goals.

 

I get that what you meant was "It's purely favorable to him to win the fight!" which, even if it's true, omits the greater context of the scene entirely.

 

It's about one respected and powerful element of the Imperium arrayed against the other; about how difference of opinion, philosophy, and perceived stature can all devolve into literal bloodshed even among purported allies, and no matter the odds it's anybody's game.

 

You don't get much more 40k than that.

 

Yes, A. D-B. set the stage such that Logan was in a good position to win. That's not a mark against A. D-B. since it served its greater purpose of driving the severity of the circumstances home for the reader.

 

 

Well, reading minds is invasive and is something people can be trained to recognize...

 

Not really.

So, the specific scene where

the Paladin had to wrestle his way past Hyperion's defenses and then got really mean about how he routed around in his mind

doesn't strike you as if there's a culture around mind-reading without permission?

 

"Shared Senses" is for the GK brotherhood, for its squads and the organization as a whole...not individuals external to it. It's part of their culture, not the Space Wolves culture or the Imperial forces culture as a whole.

[thade]

My second point is how serious it is to get scolded by Bjorn 

Bjorn the fellhanded was the right hand of the Primarch

He was the first great wolf and held the Chapter together after Russ Peaced out

Whenever he is awake he can effectively take operational control of any engagement he so wishes

When he scolds you  its a tremendous mark of shame.

I am sure that point is not lost on Logan even if its not adequately expressed in the book.

This isn't only my favorite part of the book, but perhaps my favorite scene in all of the 40k literature I've been exposed to.

 

You're very right: there's no way this is lost on Grimnar.

[jeffersonian000]

Actually, I would have preferred no fight had occurred between Logan and Joro rather the one-sided afair we ended up with. The GK know that Astartes on Astartes warfare is heresy. You would think the Wolves understood the same thing, except that we already know the Wolves consider themselves the executors of other Astartes. Joro meeting Logan's swing with both Falchions in a defensive lock would have allowed the GK to retain the moral high ground without showing the Wolves as being weak, especially if it's Logan that decides that honor was kept on both sides when neither his bodyguard nor the 100 GK move an inch. The scene would have retained the same energy, yet left the readers with a sense that Astartes actually do live the role they are made out to fill. Not knocking ADB, just stating what I'd have rather seen.

 

As to the villains of the piece, in literature, the villain is the antagonist, which in this case was the Inquisition. Villain does not mean evil, it just implies evil. Logan wasn't the villain because his plot armor required him to be continue heroically, while the protagonist exists in the form of Hyperion's changing view of the universe. Emperor's Gift is still a great read, and one of the best 40k novels because it provokes these conversations. In that, I have nothing but praise for ADB.

 

Still hate that scene, though.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

The GK know that Astartes on Astartes warfare is heresy.

 

It's also the outright murder of 5 Justicars (where was their 3+ save there?  One shot, one kill.... Right....) that also goes unpunished.

 

You can argue Joros got what he deserved.  But not for the Justicars.

 

They broke no truce.  They were just trying to restrain Logan.

 

Yet blam balm balm, all dead.

 

And that's OK, because the wolves kill other Astartes.

 

/blergh

[thade]

I don't see any clear villains in the story, honestly. Not the demons, not the Wolves, not the Inquisition, not the GK.

Everybody is doing what they feel the right thing to do is, and everybody is misguided.

Again, very 40k in theme.

I'm at least glad we can agree, Jeff, that A. D-B. is a good writer in at least most respects.

It's also the outright murder of 5 Justicars (where was their 3+ save there? One shot, one kill.... Right....) that also goes unpunished.

You can argue Joros got what he deserved. But not for the Justicars.

They broke no truce. They were just trying to restrain Logan.

Yet blam balm balm, all dead.

And that's OK, because the wolves kill other Astartes.

It's not okay at all within the narrative itself; not at all. It's kind of horrible that Logan killed those (very expensive, just doing their jobs) Knights, as it only served to make relations far worse with the GK. But, suffice it to say: restraining a raging Son of Fenris is not without risk.

It is okay for things to not be okay within the narrative though; this is a cool place for A. D-B. to take things, because it was unexpected, rocked the boat, and was Very 40K .

/blergh

It's not so bad. You don't like it; we get it. You need not pick up the heavy pitchfork any longer! Your opinions are on the record and none can forget them. So...let the pitchfork lie, Brother, and be at peace. <3

[Wade Garrett]

Getting killed by the Space Wolves because you went along with your boss when he decided to open fire on them during peaceful negotiations isn't murder, it's a more elaborate than usual form of suicide.

[Lucien Eilam]

Fastest draw in the west.  Exactly.

 

Reading, and waiting.  Hands on.

 

Beaten by someone out of position.  Weapon not ready.  Weapon stuck in the ground.

 

Yet able to get a single decapitation off, without any sort of reaction from the fastest man in the west.

 

It's impressive enough without the exaggeration. Read it again.

 

Grimnar's axe wasn't embedded in anything, he was just leaning on it.

 

He didn't kill Joros "without any sort of reaction", Joros was able to draw his weapons from their scabbards.

 

Joros isn't even described as the fastest anything. He's described as having skills few in the Chapter could match, and being renowned for his reflexes.

 

One of the key themes of the novel is that the Inquisition and the Grey Knights consistently underestimate and fail to understand the Wolves. That scene is the novel in microcosm. On the face of it, Joros has every advantage, the might of the Inquisition, a hundred Grey Knights and 300 storm troopers at his back against four battered and beaten Wolves. But he doesn't know how to read Grimnar, and that costs him his life.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You don't get to be the greatest swordsman in the GK chapter (based on the Emperors Gene Seed and all! ) without first being one of the deadliest Astartes in existence.

A long, close drawn out battle would have been great. Joro dying at the end a given.

But not this slap from out of nowhere. That was unbelievable, and disrupted the suspension of disbelief.

Oh and Daemon Weapon? HERETIC! PURGE THEM ALL!!!

But sadly the Wolves aren't the Relictors, and can get away with seemingly *anything*.

Because, reasons. (Well, they are probably too popular to get the slapping they deserve. Sadly.)

Joros isn't the greatest swordsmen. He was probably one of the best, but not THE best.

ADB wanted to surprise us. Drawn out battles are dime a dozen. Logan struck once, and only needed one hit.

I'm gonna ignore further posts on this matter, because I feel like you're just being petty at this point. Grey Knights die to mundane enemies all the time. We're awesome, but we're still not invulnerable.

One of the key themes of the novel is that the Inquisition and the Grey Knights consistently underestimate and fail to understand the Wolves. That scene is the novel in microcosm. On the face of it, Joros has every advantage, the might of the Inquisition, a hundred Grey Knights and 300 storm troopers at his back against four battered and beaten Wolves. But he doesn't know how to read Grimnar, and that costs him his life.

^This.

I'd like at this juncture to leave further discussion about Joros v Grimnar for another time. It's clearly a pretty inflammatory scene for some. Agree to disagree.

[jeffersonian000]

Actually, the GK rarely underestimated the Wolves, with Joro the only actual exception. It's the Inquidition that keep meeting the opposite reaction from what they expected, despite the GK pointing out the errors in their thinking.

 

I still stand by my issues with 40k books in general: better experienced officers deferring to novice Astartes just because they are Astartes, and Mary Sue legendary heroes that don't need to be Mary Sues. On the first point, it's just a personal disagreement, nothing more.

 

On the second point, though, we only have to look to Bjorn's character to see how to handle a legend correctly. Dan Abnett gave us a humble origin of Bjorn that is still seen in ADB's handling of such an epic character in Emperor's Gift. Bjorn has flaws that are real flaws, not like Logan who's flaws are really strengths. Bjorn would rather be dead, empathizes with the GK revulsion at being entombed in a Dreadnought, yet rises to the duty he sees as his burden to Bear (pun intended). Logan is just too over the top even for Bjorn, an actual relic Astartes from the founding of the Legions. Effectively Logan is the reincarnation of Rus, a God-child that can do no wrong when most of the time his actions cause unnecessary death. Yes, it fits the tone of the Grim Dark future, but the fitting is jagged and painfully spiked at this point in the narrative.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Actually, the GK rarely underestimated the Wolves, with Joro the only actual exception. It's the Inquidition that keep meeting the opposite reaction from what they expected, despite the GK pointing out the errors in their thinking.

 

I don't think the Inquisition was caught off-guard. They had contingencies for the Wolves not co-operating. They simply preferred the situation be resolved peaceably, and assumed the Wolves would defer to the brutal logic of the situation. When that didn't happen, the Inquisition still had a plan and went through with it anyway. 

I still stand by my issues with 40k books in general: better experienced officers deferring to novice Astartes just because they are Astartes, and Mary Sue legendary heroes that don't need to be Mary Sues. On the first point, it's just a personal disagreement, nothing more.

 

Astartes are a completely breed apart from humanity. They're essentially living weapons, perfected to that end and nothing else. Even the newest Grey Knight is a superior being in every measurable way to a human being. That's how they're built. So, calling any Astartes other than neophytes 'novices' is a pretty big stretch. You are aware they're psycho-indoctrinated the whole way through their lives, right? Even full Astartes do it, it's faster than conventional learning and much more effective. They literally have entire archives of hard-won knowledge flashed into their memory. It's actually one of the many initial tests they undergo. The Apothecaries flash Gothic language into their cortex, then see if it takes. If it does, it means they're receptive to such learning. If not, they're unsuitable and are discarded. The technology involved is ill-understood and it doesn't work on everyone. 

 

Also, as I have repeatedly mentioned, the chain of command is well established across all Chapters. The ships crew, no matter their respective ranks or responsibilities, are by definition subordinate to the will of their Astartes masters. They swear oaths of allegiance to that effect upon induction, and the penalty for breaching that trust is death. That doesn't mean most Astartes are void warfare experts, in terms of ship on ship combat. The ships crew exist for that purpose. As I mentioned before, the Astartes tell the crew what they want the ship to do. The crew make the ship do it. That's the delegation of responsibility. The ship itself is nothing more than a delivery system, and the crew a part of that. The most dangerous weapon isn't the lances or torpedoes, it's the Astartes cargo who can kill any ship. 

On the second point, though, we only have to look to Bjorn's character to see how to handle a legend correctly. Dan Abnett gave us a humble origin of Bjorn that is still seen in ADB's handling of such an epic character in Emperor's Gift. Bjorn has flaws that are real flaws, not like Logan who's flaws are really strengths. Bjorn would rather be dead, empathizes with the GK revulsion at being entombed in a Dreadnought, yet rises to the duty he sees as his burden to Bear (pun intended). Logan is just too over the top even for Bjorn, an actual relic Astartes from the founding of the Legions. Effectively Logan is the reincarnation of Rus, a God-child that can do no wrong when most of the time his actions cause unnecessary death. Yes, it fits the tone of the Grim Dark future, but the fitting is jagged and painfully spiked at this point in the narrative.

 

That's just your opinion in the end though. Which is fine, but I vehemently disagree, and I think you're not doing Logan justice. That said, he's nowhere near as powerful or awesome as Russ. Russ is a Primarch, there were only 20 other beings that ever existed on par with him (several of which are lost or dead now). Russ also had real flaws I feel you're glossing over. He was so reckless, he took Horus at face value and nearly killed his own brother in a rage. Which, as it turned out, gave the enemy a powerful ally (it tipped Magnus over the edge to Chaos, he was wavering on his loyalty), and the sacking of Prospero lost Terra a Legion well-suited to countering the traitors (a Legion of psykers would've curb-stomped the amateur-hour Word Bearers sorcery and been uniquely suited to reking daemons), plus it severely depleted the Wolves down to a remnant that could never reach Terra in time. Russ essentially gave Horus a massive leg up for the Siege of Terra, and did so purely because he couldn't see past his own bias. 

[jeffersonian000]

RD, you Fan-Boyed on me, and I lost you.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I don't think it's terribly difficult to follow

 

tl;dr version is:

 

- Inquisition gave the Wolves an out, they refused, Inquisition does what they always do when people stand up to them

- Marines are in charge of their own ships

- Logan and Russ both have real flaws and drawbacks that form part of their story

[Adeptus]

Nah. Logan only has fake flaws. When things go wrong for him, it always ends up working out ok. Sure, he pissed off the Inquisition and nearly got his chapter wiped out, but the end result was that the wolves were fine and their reputation as rebellious heroes, always looking out for the little guy was cemented, as was Logans reputation as a badass. His 'flaw' worked out as a strength. Had the wolves been excommunicated, or any of their main characters slain, I'd say you have a point. But they were protected by plot armour a mile thick.

[Prot]

The more I reflect on this conversation, and the events of the novel, the more I realize the book's real hidden super heroes are the Wolves. Look at our conversations.... it's really about the Wolves being the more interesting, and debatable characters. It's about their defiance, their ancient heroes, their victories (and defeats) and their way of life and history. The Wolves really do steal the show in this one.

 

I am still happy that Hyperion did not turn into mega destroyer 9000 in this though. As I've said sometimes ADB's characters have a habit of becoming god-like really quick, but not this time. You can see immense potential in him, but he's obviously far out of his league compared to the big hitters in this novel.

 

It was a great overall story though but again what IS the real story here? The build up to Armageddon? Or the Wolves' part of it? It feels like two novels crunched together with a giant pause and a conclusion that really needed more time... I was actually disappointed to read of Hyperion's conclusion as a rising star, as well as his surviving buddy. (Mostly because this meant no more storyline for said characters).

 

I think it could have been better as a mini-series.

 

Now I'm almost force feeding myself Maledictus by Annadale. I started it right after Emperor's Gift. I'm thinking I should have read these the other way around.

 

Joe Parino's stuff is good. I like it, and see he is deviating from Grey Knights stuff now which is disappointing. But you never know.

[thade]

As we've said, sometimes in the wilder-than-the-Wild-West Grim Dark, when one group's "justice" conflicts with another group's "justice" things come to blows. Sometimes even the reader can't deduce which is for certain more correct than the other, and - as in the real world - there are only two roads to resolve a conflict: conversation and violence. Logan tried (kinda) road one, then resorted to road two...or, rather, defaulted to road two as he lost patience and lost his handle on his temper. That's what I see as his primary flaws: hubris, lack of patience, and lack of diplomatic skill.

 

It appears to me that some of you are trying to frame things as though Logan is presented as Totally Awesome for killing the GK "Shouldn't Have Been In Charge" boss guy, i.e. that these flaws are sold purely as strengths, but nobody's really justified to me how that's so in the text; I just see repeated claims that it's so.

 

I'm not saying it's not a view without merit; I'm saying that I'm having a great deal of trouble seeing that merit.

 

I don't see anyone in the book praise the Wolves for their behavior: neither in prose nor in dialog. The fact that Logan's actions set the stage for the remainder of the book's tension and uncertainty doesn't look good on his resume. It adds the bullet "Doesn't play well with others."

 

If he's a superhero, he's a severely flawed one: more like a Frank Miller-esque Batman than an Adam West one.

[Adeptus]

It appears to me that some of you are trying to frame things as though Logan is presented as Totally Awesome for killing the GK "Shouldn't Have Been In Charge" boss guy, i.e. that these flaws are sold purely as strengths, but nobody's really justified to me how that's so in the text; I just see repeated claims that it's so.

 

I'm not saying it's not a view without merit; I'm saying that I'm having a great deal of trouble seeing that merit.

I have that opinion because nothing bad ever happens to Logan, despite his flaws. Having a temper isn't a flaw if it only ever works in his favour. Antagonising the Inquisition isn't a drawback if it works in the wolves favour.

 

Logan Grimnar and the Space Wolves have this whole "You can't tell me what to do, you're not even my real dad!" thing going on. All their 'flaws' only serve to reinforce that theme and prove to everyone how strong and independent they are. They literally murder members of the highest authority in the Imperium, and their punishment is a telling off. Literally a "don't do it again, you naughty boys!".

 

I loved the Emperor's Gift. It's the best Black Library novel I've read. But the Wolves got away too lightly in the end.

[jeffersonian000]

No, Thade, we aren't trying to frame Logan as totally awesome (except for RD, maybe). We, but mostly me, are pointing out that Logan in this narrative fulfills the common trope of a Mary Sue, in that he had no real flaws, where his few actual "flaws" are in fact strengths. Logan loses his temper, and is treated as a hero. He sacrifices billions to save millions, and he is treated as a hero. The greatest living legend of the greatest Loyalist Legion chastises him for acting like a child, and he is treated as a hero. That sort of narrative rubs some readers the wrong way, lessens the story rather than enhances it. Especially when the actual hero of the story is treated as tool, when the people trying to do the right thing, despite how horrible the right thing is, are treated as the villains of the piece.

 

That's my point.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Logan's not the Emperor.  He's just a very naughty boy. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Okay, lets just agree to disagree. If you're that determined to dislike the Wolves, that is your choice. Is there something else we can discuss?

[jeffersonian000]

I like the Wolves. Both Bjorn and Rawthroat were awesome. :)

 

SJ