The Emperor's Gift (Discussion)

[Wade Garrett]

We've seen Inquisitors get murdered by Guardsmen (Heldane), Sisters of Battle, the Dark Angels, the Flesh Tearers, and of course they kill each other off all the time.

 

But Logan Grimnar does it and everybody loses their minds.

[Prot]

I don't think what 'everybody losing their minds' over is really anything to do with the Inquisitor. Heck if I was standing next to him I would be tempted to twist his head off too.

 

Moving off of Logan Grimnar, and the Wolves because I think we've debated this to death....

 

The Geneseed. I wondered during this book if we'd actually learn more about the title of the book but we really don't. And I wondered if there might be more to the geneseed than just the ability to remain true to the Emperor, even with constant exposure to the taint of the warp.

 

I am reminded as well of the Emperor's personal guard. They kind of have a similar thing going... they aren't quite... 'normal' and seem to be physically somewhere between a marine and a primarch. I read some interesting fight scenes where they seem almost 'programmed' to fight as efficiently as possible, but still suffer some weaknesses in their 'perfected' fighting style with their Halbreds. They can't have -standard- geneseed either, can they?

 

So how much range is their in geneseed? Who else has an interesting uniqueness borne in their geneseed (I don't mean the defects from evolutionary issues)?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The Geneseed. I wondered during this book if we'd actually learn more about the title of the book but we really don't. And I wondered if there might be more to the geneseed than just the ability to remain true to the Emperor, even with constant exposure to the taint of the warp.

 

Well as I understand it, the codex and 'Emperor's Gift' show that the gene-seed helps (as it's literally shards of the Emperor getting implanted into Grey Knights ie a sliver of his power and psychic might), but it's still a choice. Even after everything the Chapter does, a Grey Knight must still consciously choose to be loyal. Hyperion even says as much. 

I am reminded as well of the Emperor's personal guard. They kind of have a similar thing going... they aren't quite... 'normal' and seem to be physically somewhere between a marine and a primarch. I read some interesting fight scenes where they seem almost 'programmed' to fight as efficiently as possible, but still suffer some weaknesses in their 'perfected' fighting style with their Halbreds. They can't have -standard- geneseed either, can they?

 

So how much range is their in geneseed? Who else has an interesting uniqueness borne in their geneseed (I don't mean the defects from evolutionary issues)?

 

The Custodes aren't Astartes. They're not Primarchs either. They share a lot of similarities with Astartes, but they're the premium brand super-warrior. Custodes spend decades, even centuries slowly building their skills and name. They're a product of a much more refined and slower process, that produces an above-average product. Think of Astartes as the mass-production super-soldier, the model they can expend by the thousand (at least during the Crusade). Custodes aren't supposed to be numerous, you only need so many bodyguards after all. I don't think Custodes get gene-seed, at least not in the way Astartes do. 

[Prot]

 

. Custodes aren't supposed to be numerous, you only need so many bodyguards after all. I don't think Custodes get gene-seed, at least not in the way Astartes do. 

 

 

This last part is the part that I was wondering about.... I thought they had geneseed.

[jeffersonian000]

We've seen Inquisitors get murdered by Guardsmen (Heldane), Sisters of Battle, the Dark Angels, the Flesh Tearers, and of course they kill each other off all the time.

 

But Logan Grimnar does it and everybody loses their minds.

Which Inquisitor did the Wolves kill? Pretty sure they only killed Grey Knights.

 

As to Geneseed, I'm not convinced yet that Grey Knight Geneseed is any different from any other Geneseed, which is proven when we are informed that the reason no Grey Knight had ever fallen to the chaos is because of their selection process and training, rather than the quality of their Geneseed. In point of fact, all Grey Knights are selected from minor Psykers, and their abilities are not overly remarkable beyond them actually being Psykers. Hyperion's abilities were originally non-existent unless he is near another Psyker, a fact that plays into the Brotherhood of Psykers aspect of the Grey Knights. It's only after years of pushing his own boundaries that he is able to push through being just another Warp Charge battery for his Justicar. That's training and experience, not uber Geneseed.

 

SJ

[Adeptus]

 

We've seen Inquisitors get murdered by Guardsmen (Heldane), Sisters of Battle, the Dark Angels, the Flesh Tearers, and of course they kill each other off all the time.

 

But Logan Grimnar does it and everybody loses their minds.

Which Inquisitor did the Wolves kill? Pretty sure they only killed Grey Knights.

 

There was that last battle where the Wolves Teleported onto the bridge of the Inquisition ship and decapitated some Inquisitor Lord. I forget his name.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

This last part is the part that I was wondering about.... I thought they had geneseed.

 

 

Nah they're augmented by a different process. It predates the Legions. 

Which Inquisitor did the Wolves kill? Pretty sure they only killed Grey Knights.

 

.........................................................Kysnaros

As to Geneseed, I'm not convinced yet that Grey Knight Geneseed is any different from any other Geneseed, which is proven when we are informed that the reason no Grey Knight had ever fallen to the chaos is because of their selection process and training, rather than the quality of their Geneseed. In point of fact, all Grey Knights are selected from minor Psykers, and their abilities are not overly remarkable beyond them actually being Psykers. Hyperion's abilities were originally non-existent unless he is near another Psyker, a fact that plays into the Brotherhood of Psykers aspect of the Grey Knights. It's only after years of pushing his own boundaries that he is able to push through being just another Warp Charge battery for his Justicar. That's training and experience, not uber Geneseed.

 

Aside from the fact it's directly from the Emperor? Also, the codex repeatedly explains that the gene-seed of the 666th grants the Grey Knights the same power as the Emperor in interacting with the warp. It's why we can wield Sanctic powers without becoming corrupted (there is even rules to reflect this). 

 

Hyperion was a mirror psyker prior to induction, and by his own admission a unique case. Once unlocked, he proved to be a powerful psyker. No Grey Knight is a 'minor' psyker. The gene-seed is too precious to waste on the unworthy. The Chapter only takes the strongest. 

[Adeptus]

I gotta admit, already being familiar with the background I just skimmed the lore in the new codex. Where does it state that the gene seed is responsible for the Grey Knights psychic prowess?

[jeffersonian000]

I gotta admit, already being familiar with the background I just skimmed the lore in the new codex. Where does it state that the gene seed is responsible for the Grey Knights psychic prowess?

No where. It's a false conclusion.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I gotta admit, already being familiar with the background I just skimmed the lore in the new codex. Where does it state that the gene seed is responsible for the Grey Knights psychic prowess? 

 

 

"In the Emperor's Image: The Grey Knight's strength of spirit and purity of body were the two most important gifts the Emperor passed on to the Chapter through his genetic legacy...It is that unique quality that the Emperor possesses, the nature of his spirit that allows him to touch the warp, shape it to this will, and yet remain beyond its madness, that he has gifted to the Grey Knights. Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity...Not so the Grey Knights, whose unblemished line reaches back to their maker in an unbroken chain.'

 

pg. 7, Codex: Grey Knights 7th edition

No where. It's a false conclusion.

 

Or it's a perfectly logical conclusion, supported by both the codex and Hyperion's own commentary on the matter in 'Emperor's Gift'. The title even it gives it away dude. 

[thade]

I think, worst case, it's a reasonable hypothesis to operate with. I'ts not an accident that they never state it directly: that's a pretty typical way to construct a narrative and make it seem intriguing, to never state the obvious answers you imply.

 

What is the Emperor's Gift? Likely including but not limited to:

• special geneseed (possibly his own, possibly just the best he made based on whom or what, who knows?);
• staggering responsibility;
• a spiffy set of titles.

In my opinion, it's all three. Can I prove it? Of course not. That's the entire point and it's the most omnipresent theme in all of the Grim Dark: even what little the citizens think they know for sure, they still have a chance of being wrong about it, and they know it.

 

++ EDIT. Clarification. -t ++

[thade]

I am reminded as well of the Emperor's personal guard. They kind of have a similar thing going... they aren't quite... 'normal'....

 

So how much range is their in geneseed? Who else has an interesting uniqueness borne in their geneseed (I don't mean the defects from evolutionary issues)?

Yea, Custodes are a custom build. They're weird ones, but they do get to hang out with the Emperor himself.

 

Virtually every Astartes chapter has some uniqueness in their geneseed due to who their Primarch was and what corruption's happened into their geneseed over millenia of being recycled across (and cultivated/stored within) living Astartes, who are exposed to all sorts of random stuff (radiation, warp energies, poisons, you name it) while in the field. Everything from the Salamander chapter's skin tone to the particular nuances of the various Blood Angels successors are due to geneseed variations, sometimes moreso than just differences in Chapter cult.

 

Maybe a notable exception are the Exorcists; you know, if the rumors are true that 1. they exist and 2. they're working with 2nd Gen GK geneseed as has been implied.

[Prot]

For me it's basically a VERY rare thing for all fluff, and authors to be 100% consistent on most things 40K. However.... one consistent is never has a Grey Knight become corrupt by Chaos.

 

This is really strong evidence to me that the Emperor's Geneseed is present and creates a factor that only the 'starchild' can give. I can't think of another Chapter completely immune to corruption. Even Wolves have joined Huron.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Maybe a notable exception are the Exorcists; you know, if the rumors are true that 1. they exist and 2. they're working with 2nd Gen GK geneseed as has been implied.

 

 

Exorcists exist. They're in the Badab War campaign book, and they've been in every Marine codex since 4th I'm pretty sure (as a paint scheme and short blurb, but hey that's most non-starring Chapters). IIRC they're using the same gene-seed as Grey Knights, but it could be Ultramarines too. I'd have to check the Badab book or Lexicanum for a source. 

 

The codex makes it perfectly clear what the benefits are of the Emperor's Gift. It's not a hypothesis, it's a stated fact (in both lore and rules) that it augments a knight's connection to the warp, and aids him in wielding his powers without falling to corruption. Along with the attendant aura that repels Daemons (it makes their souls taste like poison to a warp creature). That said, it's still a conscious choice not to fall. Thus far, no Grey Knight has chosen to. 

[Gentlemanloser]

IIRC the Exorcists use 'normal' (so Ultra) gene-seed.  The only contact they have with the GK is when the GK oversee their possession and exorcism.

 

As to why the GK would ever willingly allow Marines to be possessed, I'll never know.

 

Inquisitorial ex machina at its worst.

[jeffersonian000]

Except that all Geneseed are the Emperor's Geneseed, and all human Psykers are direct genetic descendants of the Emperor. If fact, it can be argued that the Emperor's Gift is their Psyker genes, which is enhanced through the Grneseed all Marines have. This would also explain Librarians such as Tigurius, who isn't a Grey Knight, yet who is both a human Psyker and an Astartes (ie, possesses the Emperor's Gift).

 

Remember, people in the 40k universe are not scientifically literate. They ascribe most things to either mythology or to the Emperor's divine will. Even the Mechanicus go about their devotion to technology in a ritualistic, religious manner. An Astartes only knows what they are told, what they are hypno-trained to know, and what they experience first hand is filtered through this programmed outlook on life. Of course the Enperor protects! They have his divine seed! They just don't understand how it works, yet can agree it had more to do with their selection process and training than their biological enhancements. Hyperion even says so.

 

SJ

[thade]

By the "Emperor's [Own] Geneseed" I believe the implication is that it's not previously filtered (for lack of a better term) through a Primarch...it's of him directly. But does that have anything to do with being a descendant? I dunno; that's not clear.

 

We don't know quite what geneseed is; it's got something to do with genes, we think. It's a reasonable thing to think, because of its name and the Big E's noted field of expertise...not to mention that it can inflict some pretty radical gene therapy resulting in a formerly human body being totally cool with a lot of very inhuman organs that the Big E made up. Does that mean it contains actual genes? Maybe. But it might not: maybe it's a very clever cocktail of immortal nanomachines hard-coded to [do stuff] to genes when it's in a body. Does it contain literal genetic information? Or just implicit genetic information in that it does stuff without having its explicit goal written down anywhere. If it does contain genetic data, how is that data stored? In genes? If so, are those genes even recognizable as genes to us, as they're functionally immortal and - again - aggressively alter the genes of the bearer?

 

With all that in mind, how a "geneseed" recipient relates (or doesn't relate) to a "direct descendant" isn't clear. It's further compounded by this: a "direct descendant" of the Big E at this point is less closely related to the Big E himself than any of us are in the real world to Genghis Khan or Napolean. As ever, the unknowable weight of Ten. Thousand. Years is a factor we can't dismiss. Go back 10,000 years from today and you suddenly predate most known civilizations. How directly related are any of us to those people back then? Well, some of us have nigh flawless vision...we got that from them. (Replace "flawless vision" with "psychic" and apply it to the subject matter here, and you'll maybe see what I mean.)

 

As to whether the GK can "choose" to fall or not is its own interesting question. Here's another theme in 40k: what's believed may be true, may be somewhat true, or not true at all. I accept that Hyperion (and others) may believe they have some conscious power to resist falling, and they go through the motions in their minds now and again...but this could simply be rationalization or pure confusion. Perhaps it's literally impossible for them to fall given said gene therapy (from the Big E himself) and their training.

 

I certainly agree that it's much more interesting that it's a constant struggle that they've, so far, won, but if we're talking about the nitty gritty I think it's valuable (and fun) to point out how little we know (and how vast the knowledge space actually is).

[thade]

(Side-note: This is why I love this fluff so much. It's so deep and it makes me think. Pretty damn hard, honestly.)

[Prot]

We don't know quite what geneseed is;

 

 

 

+ Exactly so the best we're going to do is speculate.... but it's fun. ;)

 

What we do know is the Emperor made some bizarre deal with something of Chaos or the Warp that resulted in some manifestation of science (the Emperor's own knowledge of all things in the material universe?) combined with some infestation of an intangible 'pixie dust' from the warp to create the Primarchs.

 

So if geneseed is derived from Primarchs for *other* chapters, there is always the possiblity of taint. If geneseed for the Grey Knights is derived of the Emperor's own essence, I think this could (in theory) explain a difference.

 

(IE: We know Chaos had a lot to do with the scattering of the 'baby primarchs' into the galaxy. So their fall may have been sewn well in advance of their birth... perhaps. The Emperor suffered no such taint or accident. I doubt it's even possible.)

 

So by my (admittedly simple)  logic it makes sense how one geneseed (from Primarchs) could be corrupted and the other geneseed (from Dad) could be incorruptible.

 

 

 

As to whether the GK can "choose" to fall or not is its own interesting question. Here's another theme in 40k: what's believed may be true, may be somewhat true, or not true at all. I accept that Hyperion (and others) may believe they have some conscious power to resist falling, and they go through the motions in their minds now and again...but this could simply be rationalization or pure confusion. Perhaps it's literally impossible for them to fall given said gene therapy (from the Big E himself) and their training.

 

 

 

 

I agree with this. Most 'modern' techpriests don't have access to STC's, nor the base technology that drives the machinations of most of the Imperial forces.... they will add holy ointments, and say a machine god prayer as they repair a war device. Is this changing the effectiveness of the repair? I doubt it.... but the belief seems important to them.

 

So I think the idea that the Grey Knights believe they have a choice in the matter is a similar placebo.

 

Just think they all, even the lowliest of warrior, have psychic ability. They all to varying degrees create a beacon in the Warp, that is a honey pot for Daemons. Yet -zero- have been corrupted. I simply don't think (given what we know) that this is remotely possible without the Emperor's Geneseed. Some chapters might be resistant, some might have low corruption cases, but none other have zero.

[Knight of the Raven]

I know the discussion has veered away from Space Wolves and their perceived plot armor in the book, but I wanted to say something.

At the end of the day, Space Wolves are still around, Fenris still exists, Logan Grimnar is still alive and he's still a hero. It doesn't matter how many characters who were named or created just for this book die or how many redshirts are torn to pieces. Some people will consider the lack of noticeable consequences in the broad Games Workshop lore (such as codices) plot armor. And that's understandable.

As for the Emperor and chaos taint... Doesn't the prehistoric Realms of Chaos book mention He's slowly getting corrupted by the Warp?

[thade]

As for the Emperor and chaos taint... Doesn't the prehistoric Realms of Chaos book mention He's slowly getting corrupted by the Warp?

There's some mistake here: the Emperor cannot be corrupted. Report to Deck 12, Section C for your...debriefing.

(But, also, yea, maybe. That would make things very crappy VERY fast.)

[Dantay VI]

Talking of gene-seed.

 

This is a pivotal part of the HH novel Deliverance Lost, as Corax defeats te Emperors labyrinth and gains access to the laboratory where the Primarchs were created. From that laboratory he is allowed to take the genetic samples used to create Primarch and Astartes.

 

The Magos Biologis and Chief Apotecary have a hard time with the sample because there are millions of littlet twists to it where it makes it hard to isolate what a Raven Guard genetics would be (other genetics are in the sample, lupine for example).

 

It comes down to Corax to solve the problem. This allowed Corax to vastly accelerate the implantation process and create superior marines.

 

So it would appear that there was a single source for the creation of the Primarchs and te Astartes, which was spliced to give each a unique identity.

 

If this was the only sample, then to create the Grey Knights either A: other samples were stashed away or B) The emperor donated his own genes to be allowed to create the Grey Knights.

[Prot]

Talking of gene-seed.

The emperor donated his own genes to be allowed to create the Grey Knights.

.... and it was called... /drumroll..... The Emperor's Gift !

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Except that all Geneseed are the Emperor's Geneseed, and all human Psykers are direct genetic descendants of the Emperor.

Well on the first part, you're only partially correct. All gene-seed (save the GK) comes from a Primarch. Primarchs are the sons of the Emperor, but forged for different purposes and thus each varies accordingly (some more than others). They're still of a lower order of relation to the Emperor than the GK's gene-seed.

Human psykers are born completely independently of the Emperor. He's simply the most powerful cognoscynth every born. The only descendants the Emperor has are the Primarchs and his own children.

don't know quite what geneseed is; it's got something to do with genes, we think. It's a reasonable thing to think, because of its name and the Big E's noted field of expertise...not to mention that it can inflict some pretty radical gene therapy resulting in a formerly human body being totally cool with a lot of very inhuman organs that the Big E made up. Does that mean it contains actual genes? Maybe. But it might not: maybe it's a very clever cocktail of immortal nanomachines hard-coded to [do stuff] to genes when it's in a body. Does it contain literal genetic information? Or just implicit genetic information in that it does stuff without having its explicit goal written down anywhere. If it does contain genetic data, how is that data stored? In genes? If so, are those genes even recognizable as genes to us, as they're functionally immortal and - again - aggressively alter the genes of the bearer?

We have a reasonable idea of what it is and it's purpose. It's an artificial set of organs (one grows in the neck, the other grows in the chest) that contain the genetic precursors to growing the 19 implants required to make an Astartes. For the GK, it's the pure Emperor. For all other Astartes, they get a Primarch variant suited to a particular purpose. We're the only ones to get the general purpose build, and as a plus we get a shard of the Emperor's power to wield as our own.

How it works, no idea. It's a mixture of advanced genetic engineering beyond mortal comprehension (even the Mechanicum can't replicate it without using the normal process of growing in a human host), plus psychic engineering to give the Primarchs (and thus their descendants) super-human abilities that evolution or normal augmentation could never grant them. It's why Astartes typically inherit some of their Primarch's traits. For example, Raven Guard and their descendants have a cadre within them that can shadow-walk the same way Corax could. It's a form of psychic power, but unique to him and his descendants. In the GK's case, we get the Emperor's ability to wield sorcery without succumbing to corruption (ie our Sanctic powers).

With all that in mind, how a "geneseed" recipient relates (or doesn't relate) to a "direct descendant" isn't clear.

It's pretty clear. You become a mutant, because no longer do you resemble or even generate your cells as your mortal parents do (you become genetically removed from humanity). You're still sufficiently different from a Primarch (or in our case the Emperor) to not be a clone or a direct descendant, but you blur the line. That's kind of the point about all Astartes, they're a compromise between the inherent advantages of human beings (variety, resiliance, intense capacity for belief, pack hunters etc) and the need to augment such strengths or negate weaknesses (you'll note that most of the 19 implants are either redundant organs that take over when the original set fails, or augmentation of existing structures).

s to whether the GK can "choose" to fall or not is its own interesting question.

It's a metaphor for the entire Imperium really. Even the Primarchs proved to be corruptible, but always it was a choice. None of them were forced into being traitor, or accepting the warp. Even Lorgar (who arguably started the whole civil war) made a conscious choice to betray his father for power.

The answer I suppose is a mixture of both. The Chapter doesn't select weak-willed individuals, and it's induction process eliminates all but the very best candidates. That said, there is always the risk. But 10,000 years of no one falling would suggest that thus far, their techniques work. No one else has that record of loyalty. The problem is, if even one Grey Knight falls, the Imperium is doomed.

What we do know is the Emperor made some bizarre deal with something of Chaos or the Warp that resulted in some manifestation of science (the Emperor's own knowledge of all things in the material universe?) combined with some infestation of an intangible 'pixie dust' from the warp to create the Primarchs.

I think people misunderstand what the Chaos Gods mean in 'The First Heretic'. Remember, they always lie to their advantage, but their lies contain a kernel of truth.

What actually happened is (as I mentioned earlier), the Emperor used sorcery to create the Primarchs. They're completely unnatural beings, a violation of the laws of reality. They're essentially a hybrid of warp creature and mortal creature (as evidenced by their absurd combat ability, mental capacity and unique powers, but they can still die). In doing so, he attracted the attention of the False Gods. They saw both a threat and an oppertunity. So, using the Word Bearers in the future (it's weird, but yeah, read 'First Heretic'), they breached Luna and stole them away. The whole point of that was to cause them to be seperated from their creator, and thus able to be corrupted. Every one of the Primarchs was tempted, even if they weren't fully aware of it.

So, whilst the Chaos Gods claim the Emperor made a pact with them, it's a lie constructed around an uncomfortable truth. He created essentially greater daemons but of his own version and linked to his power (the Primarchs have the same power the GK do, they can interact with the warp and not be corrupted, at least not without choosing to be). The Emperor draws his powers from the warp, the same place the False Gods do. They're linked, even though they're bitter enemies.

For another example of how the Chaos Gods lie whilst speaking truths, remember their vision to Horus. They showed him a future beyond the Crusade, where humanity had conquered the galaxy and destroyed all their myriad enemies. It was a lie, because the False Gods well know, there is no end to war. The important part of the facade was showing that Horus and the other Primarchs were now but a memory. The uncomfortable truth in this case was that the Legions were not meant to survive the Crusade. The Emperor had plans for certain Legions and Primarchs that extended beyond it (Magnus would sit on the Throne and control the Eternity Gate, Guilleman would become a statesman and organiser etc), but some had no place in the new order (Angron, Curze and many of the others would likely be executed). If you read 'Outcast Dead', you can gain further insight from the Thunder Warrior characters portrayed in it. They were the prototype super-soldier, the rushed alpha build that was never meant to survive Unification. So, from their point of view, what was happening to the Legions 200 years later was largely a repeat of history. The Emperor was preparing to discard another purpose-build tool.

So by my (admittedly simple) logic it makes sense how one geneseed (from Primarchs) could be corrupted and the other geneseed (from Dad) could be incorruptible.

Well don't forget the compromise every Astartes is. It's taking a mortal, fallible human, and augmenting them with essentially the power of a god. The Emperor hoped he'd done enough to make the Primarchs and their Legions incorruptible, but that proved false. Because even he underestimated how much human was still in his creations. In the Primarchs case, he'd made them immortal and nearly all powerful, but still they had emotions and flaws that could be exploited to turn them. In the same way, some of the Astartes proved just how human they were in following their fathers down the same dark path.

That said, many didn't choose, even in the traitor Legions they had to purge loyalist elements. So, it's definitely a choice that can go either way, even if you are a demi-god or the son of one.

So I think the idea that the Grey Knights believe they have a choice in the matter is a similar placebo.

Just think they all, even the lowliest of warrior, have psychic ability. They all to varying degrees create a beacon in the Warp, that is a honey pot for Daemons. Yet -zero- have been corrupted. I simply don't think (given what we know) that this is remotely possible without the Emperor's Geneseed. Some chapters might be resistant, some might have low corruption cases, but none other have zero.

That's the point though. The Emperor's Gift simply helps, it doesn't make them robots who can't question or think for themselves. That's both the strength and the danger of all Astartes; you're giving mortal men god-like power but then asking them to remain loyal to the Emperor. The gene-seed does many things, but it doesn't rob the host of the capacity for reason and independent thought. That's by design. The Emperor did have the option of just making robot legions to get the job done, but he didn't. He knew he needed to use human soldiers, because they're better and they had a lower chance of eventually turning against him (he knew from bitter experience watching the last interstellar human empire fall that AI was the wrong choice).

At the end of the day, Space Wolves are still around, Fenris still exists, Logan Grimnar is still alive and he's still a hero. It doesn't matter how many characters who were named or created just for this book die or how many redshirts are torn to pieces. Some people will consider the lack of noticeable consequences in the broad Games Workshop lore (such as codices) plot armor. And that's understandable, even if such an opinion doesn't necessarily fit a setting where the universe clings to the status quo harder than a gun-loving United States citizen clings to the second amendment.

Not to be trite, but der. 'Emperor's Gift' is set in 444 m.41, well before the current timeline of Abbadon smashing Cadia and on his way to Terra. Logan lives to see that day, and for plot reasons Hyperion survives till the end of the novel (it's likely he's dead by the current timeline though, as Prognosticars slowly killed themselves with their role). ADB can't kill named characters prior them going on to have illustrious careers ;) Logan was only just elected Great Wolf when Angron invaded Armageddon. It was his first big test as Chapter Master.

As for the Emperor and chaos taint... Doesn't the prehistoric Realms of Chaos book mention He's slowly getting corrupted by the Warp?

Chaos lies ;) . As I mentioned earlier, that's just what the False Gods are saying. The kernel of truth there is that he was fatally wounded by Horus, and is slowly dying in his mortal body. Constant battle with the warp trying to stop daemon incursions from manifesting is hard work, and it's slowly killing him (so the Chaos Gods keep trying to corrupt him, and in the process it's killing him). Now, he's supposed to get a free rez spell on death, but that may or may not happen (at least a few of his sons have reincarnation, but GW have never stated the Emperor has it).

If this was the only sample, then to create the Grey Knights either A: other samples were stashed away or The emperor donated his own genes to be allowed to create the Grey Knights.

Which is what I've been saying all along. And yeah, that book is a really good read on the topic (the whole novel is essentially about gene-seed). Remember, the Alpha Legion have it too now, it's how they're able to make so many new operatives. The original source is the Emperor, and he made variants in the form of the different Primarchs and their Legions.

[Dantay VI]

The Alpha Legion do also have a portion of it, but it's a corrupted version, as does Horus and a certain othe character.

 

ANd yeah, glad we agree, cos I was hoping what I had typed was backing you up :)

 

I am re-reading 'Emperors gift' just now after not having read it in a year or so. I have a question

 

How did the other Prognosticators die... Was it attritoion over time, or one ataclysmic event which effectively wiped the majority of them out?