Adeptus Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 So do we think GK Geneseed is literally developed from the Emperor, or just developed specially by the Emperor? Like, if I make a sandwich that could be called Adeptus' sandwich. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4156719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 The Alpha Legion do also have a portion of it, but it's a corrupted version, as does Horus and a certain othe character. Nah, if you re-read 'Deliverance Lost', you'll find they only corrupt the gene-seed the Raven Guard have. They steal pure samples first, then taint the remainder and run. I don't think they ever tell Horus they did that, only they stopped Corax from re-building (for a time). How did the other Prognosticators die... Was it attritoion over time, or one ataclysmic event which effectively wiped the majority of them out? If you recall, Torcrith mentions that using his powers slowly kills him. It's the nature of the job, it wears them out constantly searching the warp telepathically. Even with their formidable powers, it takes its toll. There are supposed to be several, as Torcrith says when Hyperion mentions that 'one Prognosticar doesn't seem sufficient'. But attrition seems to keep their numbers low, dangerously low in the case of 'Emperor's Gift' timeline (if Torcrith hadn't passed along his training and experience to Hyperion, it's possible the Chapter couldn't re-build as no one else knows how to do it). So do we think GK Geneseed is literally developed from the Emperor, or just developed specially by the Emperor? Yeah, it's his genetic material. That's always been made explicitly clear. But it also builds into it other inventions and traits he doesn't possess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4156734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Hmmm, I must have missed that part, I just remember the operative being passed on the taint to add to the genetic sample. I do not recall them taking pure samples. I am just past the part where Castian are called to the great meeting to discuss Armageddon with the other 118 brothers present. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4156746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Hmmm, I must have missed that part, I just remember the operative being passed on the taint to add to the genetic sample. I do not recall them taking pure samples. It's in the epilogue or third act, I can't remember. Have to look it up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4156750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 No worries, I can check myself.... It's fun sometimes, that people catch bits you miss in a book. Adds to it a bit more I think. As does dicussing each others views of the books too. Still trying to work out How Annika, got off of Fenris and became an Inqusitor, i can't think of too many instances where Space Wolves would allow the Inquisition to interact with Fenris, indigenous population. Maybe recruted from a Fenrisian PDF unit which had been off-world? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4156753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Still trying to work out How Annika, got off of Fenris and became an Inqusitor, i can't think of too many instances where Space Wolves would allow the Inquisition to interact with Fenris, indigenous population. Maybe recruted from a Fenrisian PDF unit which had been off-world? The Fenrisians don't have a PDF. They're kept in a permanent state of warfare and low-tech Iron Age tier culture. The Wolves protect Fenris from invasion, and they've mostly been successful. As to her recruitment, no idea. As I recall, the Inquisition does recruit from every world. It's conceivable that she could've been recruited from either the backward population or the Chapter serfs. It is a very weird choice though. ADB never explains her history very well, her name does imply she's from a fairly important family but that's kinda it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Nah, any chieftain on Fenris is considered a Jarl (or lord) And if you read battle of the fang, the defending inside the Fang was done by the Kaerls fighting alongside the Wolves, which are a standing mortal army whohelp guard the Fang, and presumably Asaheim too, which is the only stable land mass on Fenris. I could imagine the Kaerls serving aboard the Wolves ships, and going off-planet... Maybe the Wolves and Inqusition were friendlier before Armageddon and allowed recruitment? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Oh yeah, the Wolves have Chapter serfs and auxiliaries. I was simply saying, no Imperial Guard regiments or PDF exist on Fenris. It's defence is entirely dependent on the Wolves and their forces. A real PDF would be a lot larger and encompass the whole planet. The Chapter serfs mostly just guard the Fang, on the pretty reasonable understanding no sane army would bother invading anywhere else on Fenris. Unless they really like ice and death. I'm sure the Wolves allowed the Inquisition access. That much is clear. How Annika got recruited...who knows. The Inquisition recruits people for all sorts of reasons. She obviously impressed whoever her mentor was, because she would've had to be Schola Progenium trained (it's a basic requirement for all Interrogators, Commissars and Stormtroopers). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 So do we think GK Geneseed is literally developed from the Emperor, or just developed specially by the Emperor? Everything I've ever read on this subject states pretty clearly that the Emperor extracted his own DNA and iterated on it to create the Primarchs. The entire procedure is lost to the Imperium but (sadly) not to the galaxy at large. I suspect the only entities with any real understanding of gene-seed (other than the Emperor himself) are, in fact, the worst possible storehouses for that information: Fabius Bile due to study and reverse engineering; Nurgle and Isha, for obvious reasons; the Black Library. I also bet that the Laughing God knows, but that's just a hunch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I got the impression that the reason for all Fabius' experiments failings are because the samples given to him to wrk with by the Alpha Legion were corrupted. Fabius has no knowledge of the corruption and assumes he is working with the pure genetic material from Terra. Because of this his experiments have always been doomed to fail, much lke the Raven Guard aspirants. Part of a carefully thought out ploy to keep the Emperor and Horus level-pegging so neither one nor the other would claim a decisive victory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Emperor's gift is OK. Showered too much love on the SW for my taste. Was expecting the GK to shine more Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I can kinda see that a bit, but I always thought it was more down to the fact the book was from Hyperions point of view and what he saw and felt. Looking througgh his eyes. So in the book we saw the Space Wolves do stuff and we saw how he inteacted with humans etc, the same as we saw how he interacted wth his brothers. So rather than being a history lecture I felt, it was far more of a 'personal' story, almost like a journal and we get some amazing glimpses into the workings of the Grey Knights because of it. He wasn't the uber-grand master who oversaw everything, he was a simpe brother with his feet on the ground in ecxtraordinary times, under extraordinary circumstances. That is one of the things that makes this a great book for me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I got the impression Annika was a Sororitas at some point in her career, based on her fighting attire and knowledge of the Administratum. How she left Fenris and eventually returned are probably greater mysteries than anything else in the novel, which is why she's such a cool character. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Keep in mind inquisitors are usually acolytes first. Maybe an inquisitor went to Fenris and found a native useful and took her under their wings. Whether she liked it or not, because no one said anything about consent. She could even be a prisoner who proved useful and decided to work for the Inquisition because ++REDACTED++. ++EDIT. Out of bounds material removed. -t++ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I got the impression Annika was a Sororitas at some point in her career, based on her fighting attire and knowledge of the Administratum. How she left Fenris and eventually returned are probably greater mysteries than anything else in the novel, which is why she's such a cool character. This is a cool theory; I wouldn't mind A. D-B. revisiting this character for a story, whether about her origins or otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 She definitely came from a Fenrisian tribe, as she names them to the wounded Space Wolf and he knows the tribe from 10 generations before her birth. So its not like she was born in te stars in a Space Wolves ship and recovered by an Inquisitor. She also does not seem to be a psyker,so I doubt a black ship took her (even though she can commune psychically with Hyperion and the others, I believe it is due to temletting her tap into their powers). It is intriguing We do know that Inquisitors used to beallowed planetside as one was caught recording the sagas as tey were being recited by the Skalds Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I can kinda see that a bit, but I always thought it was more down to the fact the book was from Hyperions point of view and what he saw and felt. Looking througgh his eyes. So in the book we saw the Space Wolves do stuff and we saw how he inteacted with humans etc, the same as we saw how he interacted wth his brothers. So rather than being a history lecture I felt, it was far more of a 'personal' story, almost like a journal and we get some amazing glimpses into the workings of the Grey Knights because of it. He wasn't the uber-grand master who oversaw everything, he was a simpe brother with his feet on the ground in ecxtraordinary times, under extraordinary circumstances. That is one of the things that makes this a great book for me There was some uber grandmaster. Grimnar killed him. I think that alone warrants a sequel. I was expecting a GK novel. I felt the book was almost 50% about SW...albeit from a starry eyed GK novice's perspective. The book was largely a SW-Inquisition story written from a GK's perspective. Simply not what I was looking forward to when I bought the book...sort of like how Prospero Burns was not exactly what I was expecting. Neither are badly written. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 Yea that's basically what I was saying. The book definitely changed feel about halfway through. I thought it would have been a better mini-series, partially told through the eyes of the Wolves, and with the Grey Knight novels focusing a little better on Hyperion and friends. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I don't feel like there would have been enough material to spread the story out over multiple books. I think ADB gave each element of the story just enough attention to keep it interesting and cover all the important points. Spreading it out would simply destroy the pacing and ruin the story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Out of curiosity, whch Ravenor/ Eisenhorn character uses the phrase "the things you learn"? It was a phrase used by Annika, as Hyperion was discovering his past life, Also isnt it a bit dangerous to reveal to them who they were? Now its possible to discover the Grey Knights "true name" and have power over them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4157652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PipX Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Out of curiosity, whch Ravenor/ Eisenhorn character uses the phrase "the things you learn"? It's been a while since I've read the Ravenor/Eisenhorn stuff, but wasn't it Patience Kys who usually said "The things you know" to Carl Thonius since he seemed to be an endless font of trivia and useful skills? I also have to agree with Hyperion's past being revealed, on the one hand it was cool to tie it back to the Ravenor/Eisenhorn arc, especially since I was hoping it would come back up if they ever continue the story after Pariah. But on the other hand it kind of defeats the whole secrecy thing with the Grey Knights in the story, I mean, they purge Armageddon and the non-Inquisition forces for potentially seeing the demonic or the Grey Knights, on the basis that it's dangerous or can weaken the GK's mission if they are known of. But it's also been shown in the 40k universe that knowing a persons true name can let you have almost total power over them, like in the Horus Heresy books where the Custode is taken control of since his name was known, but "Bear" couldn't be because of a mistranslation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4158469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Knowing a true name isn't the same as having power over somebody. You still need to have both will and psychic might to do it. Annika is unlikely to measure up on either count, even assuming she wanted to control or destroy Hyperion. Good luck to anyone trying a mind war with a Grey Knight. Also, in the context you mention, it was a powerful sorceror versus non-psykers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4159376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I wasn't meaning Annika having power over Hyperion, but it opens the door, should the information be taken from his memories& thoughts, or by other means, hat someone could then hold power over a Grey Knight, just like the Costodian in Prospero Burns. Maybe someone like Ahriman?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4160127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PipX Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I was thinking it was more a very bad idea since radical Inquisitors exist, and even if a puritan Inquisitor knew or had access they could be compromised. And because of the specialty of the Grey Knights, the forces that they combat are the ones most suited to making use of having their true names, whether for psychic or sorcerers purposes. Main point being that it's a potential chink in the Grey Knights metaphysical armor, which they and the Inquisition go to extreme purposes to create and maintain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4160180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I wasn't meaning Annika having power over Hyperion, but it opens the door, should the information be taken from his memories& thoughts, or by other means, hat someone could then hold power over a Grey Knight, just like the Costodian in Prospero Burns. Maybe someone like Ahriman?? It's a long shot. You'd need to be a supremely powerful psyker anyway, just to stand a chance in direct combat. So really, it's a 'win more' advantage. It doesn't help a sorceror anymore than another spell or bit of dark lore would. Probably easier just to kill the Grey Knight in question with a blade or gun. I was thinking it was more a very bad idea since radical Inquisitors exist, and even if a puritan Inquisitor knew or had access they could be compromised. And because of the specialty of the Grey Knights, the forces that they combat are the ones most suited to making use of having their true names, whether for psychic or sorcerers purposes. Main point being that it's a potential chink in the Grey Knights metaphysical armor, which they and the Inquisition go to extreme purposes to create and maintain. Yeah but it's essentially useless knowledge. Because the Grey Knights go to great lengths to mind-scrub and detach their neophytes from their past. Hyperion only has extremely vague sensations, not even true memories, of his past. And that's probably temporary, given he's only recently blooded in 'Emperor's Gift'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311598-the-emperors-gift-discussion/page/8/#findComment-4160700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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