The Emperor's Gift (Discussion)

[Dantay VI]

Then why in Emperors Gift does Hyperion mention he knows the daemons name on the Space Wolves vessel?

Surely by knowing its true name he could either bind it to his will or use tis to banish it.

 

Didn't Eisenhorn use this on Charubael along with all those wards to keep control of it?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Then why in Emperors Gift does Hyperion mention he knows the daemons name on the Space Wolves vessel?

Surely by knowing its true name he could either bind it to his will or use tis to banish it.

 

Daemons aren't mortals. They literally can only manifest at the whim of their patron. Hyperion didn't get it right, btw. But if he had, it would've helped. That said, Bloodthirsters are some of the most psyker-resistant daemons around, Khorne shields them from such things. A daemonic pact (which is essentially what invoking a true name involves) is risky enough with a lesser daemon. With a Greater Daemon of one of the Four, you'll probably just annoy it. It has nearly limitless willpower and strength, and the way they end up killing it is by cutting it to pieces and weakening it with psychic flame. 

 

Didn't Eisenhorn use this on Charubael along with all those wards to keep control of it?

 

 

Charubael is a lesser daemon (his powers are formidable, but they're still not Greater Daemon tier), and he chose Eisenhorn as his new master. It's a pact the daemon wanted. So, that's a bit different to forcing your will on an unwilling daemon (which is usually what is happening). 

[Adeptus]

Charubael is a lesser daemon (his powers are formidable, but they're still not Greater Daemon tier), and he chose Eisenhorn as his new master. It's a pact the daemon wanted. So, that's a bit different to forcing your will on an unwilling daemon (which is usually what is happening).

Is this the same lesser daemon that one-shotted a Warlord Titan?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Is this the same lesser daemon that one-shotted a Warlord Titan? 

 

In the Abnettverse ;) which even the author acknowledges is his own special variant of 40k. On that note, a Titan doesn't have any special protection from a daemon's telekinesis. That's kind of the point. Daemons break the laws of reality with impunity, so their actual power level is relatively strong against non-psykers. Charubael meanwhile against even a single Grey Knight is likely to be a pretty one-sided contest (although it would be close, and Daemons do routinely kill GK with sheer savagery if psychic powers fail them). 

[jeffersonian000]

Weird. I got the impression that the material universe dampens and resists psychic power, which is why it takes tremendous power to effect anything in the material universe that isn't already attuned. Daemon worlds are attuned. Force weapons are attuned. Sanctioned Psykers are attuned. Rogue Psykers not do much, which is why they tend to go exponential and vomit the Warp into reality. Daemons can only exist in real space when that space is attuned, most of the time via efforts by partisans to effect such attunaments. At least, that's the impression I got.

 

If this is the case, then it explains how psychic nulls suppress psychic power, how hymns effect reality, and how exorcisms impact the darmonic. To imply that daemons have great power over the materium when manifested kind of ignores all the lore showing the opposite.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Also, the lore is that when Daemons in the material realm are destroyed, their forms disappear back into the warp.

 

Yet models are shown with trophies of Daemon kills.  Like severed heads and other body parts.

 

This would be impossible, wouldn't it?

[Knight of the Raven]

That's the feeling I get too, jeffersonian000. Every thing I remember points to daemons having extreme difficulty staying in the mortal universe, which is why they always try to widen the fracture between the two realms (it seems 'killing stuff dead' is enough).

 

Also, the lore is that when Daemons in the material realm are destroyed, their forms disappear back into the warp.

 

Yet models are shown with trophies of Daemon kills.  Like severed heads and other body parts.

 

This would be impossible, wouldn't it?

Rule of cool, man. Rule of cool.

[Dantay VI]

I believe that is why Angron had to stop and build his great pyramids of skulls, these forms of worship/magicky stuff allowed the realm of Chaos to maintain its grasp in the material realm, or he risked losing his daemonic allies... It explained his delay in trying to take the rest of Armageddon and gave the defenders time to reinforce the line at the river Styx. Or so I thought the original fluff went

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Weird. I got the impression that the material universe dampens and resists psychic power, which is why it takes tremendous power to effect anything in the material universe that isn't already attuned. Daemon worlds are attuned. Force weapons are attuned. Sanctioned Psykers are attuned. Rogue Psykers not do much, which is why they tend to go exponential and vomit the Warp into reality. Daemons can only exist in real space when that space is attuned, most of the time via efforts by partisans to effect such attunaments. At least, that's the impression I got.

 

If this is the case, then it explains how psychic nulls suppress psychic power, how hymns effect reality, and how exorcisms impact the darmonic. To imply that daemons have great power over the materium when manifested kind of ignores all the lore showing the opposite.

 

Yeah and that's exactly what I'm saying. Whilst they're manifested (by whatever means, usually mortals trying to bargain for power), Daemons break the rules of reality for as long as they can stay in it. But the 'real' world rejects the warp, it's like water and oil. 

 

Daemons don't require attunement, you just need the right rituals and power to summon them past the barriers between realspace and the warp. You're basically beseeching their patron for help. The False Gods can't obviously manifest, they're too large. So they send vassals. Plus you've got opportunists, parasites, scavengers and undivided entities who could also answer the call. 

 

Daemons have immense power to break reality, but only whilst they're fuelled to do so. That usually means souls or warp energy, whatever is more practicable. That's why Daemons invariably destroy everything around them, they have to keep killing to power their stolen, unnatural existence. 

Also, the lore is that when Daemons in the material realm are destroyed, their forms disappear back into the warp.

 

Yet models are shown with trophies of Daemon kills.  Like severed heads and other body parts.

 

This would be impossible, wouldn't it?

 

Ah that's just modelling bits. If you wanted some solid headcanon for it, I'd venture that Grey Knights can trap a daemonic entity inside it's skull (they did so with a Daemon Raja) or some other fragment. 

That's the feeling I get too, jeffersonian000. Every thing I remember points to daemons having extreme difficulty staying in the mortal universe, which is why they always try to widen the fracture between the two realms (it seems 'killing stuff dead' is enough).

 

The difficulty is exponential though. Like, a lesser daemon wouldn't be the most difficult ritual. But a Greater Daemon requires immense offering to attract the attention of it (usually a lot of death, but each daemon has it's own quirks). And Daemons can be manifested without constant murder, although it usually requires a vessel of some kind to trap their essence (either a mortal host, or a suitably desecrated artifact or machine). Runes and by extension ancient words can trap them in reality and bind them in pacts. Basically, a daemon will trade power and pretend to help it's nominal master for longevity. Charubael for example, is a lot less powerful under Eisenhorn, because he puts in extra safeguards. He gets a more stable manifestation out of it, but the trade off is power level. 

I believe that is why Angron had to stop and build his great pyramids of skulls, these forms of worship/magicky stuff allowed the realm of Chaos to maintain its grasp in the material realm, or he risked losing his daemonic allies... It explained his delay in trying to take the rest of Armageddon and gave the defenders time to reinforce the line at the river Styx. Or so I thought the original fluff went

 

It's not so much he had to, is that he wanted to and did so to offer up thanks to Khorne, his patron. It was also probably designed to act as a lodestone, so he could keep his grip on reality and keep his daemonic allies from being torn back to the warp (being a Daemon Primarch, he too is affected by the same principles). But the Grey Knights turn up anyway and banish him, so GG. 

[jeffersonian000]

The "right rituals and powers" is attunament. It's called paraphrasing, or using a Thesaurus.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

My point was that you don't need to even be a psyker to manifest a daemon (although it obviously helps). They can breach realspace all on their own too, although that's a lot rarer (usually requires co operation between the Ruinous Powers, which is unusual). You could have a pristine planet with zero warp corruption or preparation, and suddenly daemons. The Grey Knights exist for that nightmare scenario, amoungst other things. 

 

However you wanna word it, doing the right rituals and desecrations it's a lot more effective and reliable (relative of course, as the warp is never entirely predictable). It gives the daemon a stronger grip on it's existence, and thus greater freedom to ignore or change the laws of reality. 

[Adeptus]

Is this the same lesser daemon that one-shotted a Warlord Titan?

In the Abnettverse which even the author acknowledges is his own special variant of 40k. On that note, a Titan doesn't have any special protection from a daemon's telekinesis. That's kind of the point. Daemons break the laws of reality with impunity, so their actual power level is relatively strong against non-psykers. Charubael meanwhile against even a single Grey Knight is likely to be a pretty one-sided contest (although it would be close, and Daemons do routinely kill GK with sheer savagery if psychic powers fail them).

Yeah, I keep trying to explain the Abnettverse to people. It's the reason I don't particularly like the Eisenhorn novels and why I never picked up the Ravenor novels. It's sort of mostly like 40K but misses the mark by just enough to be distracting.

[Sororita Katya]

The attuned term is the most realistic to the fluff. Yes individual daemons can be summoned but without a direct link or attuned space they can't really do much past that point. A greater daemon on the other hand or a daemon prince has a lot more power and therefore if summoned attunes the area around them almost instantaneously as their aura is a lot more powerful. Thus why they can summon daemons from that point into the attuned space and thus grow that area of effect. You have to remember that the big 4 can channel human energy into warp energy itself as well. Say a single civilian goes into a rage and kills 50 people, that may be enough for Khorne to form a cult, or slip something into someone's mind, causing the downfall of that planet. An overly debauched orgie could give off enough sexual energy to summon a daemonette to the fray etc,etc. The ruinous powers are not always so direct...and that's what makes them dangerous.

Eldar learnt this the hard way

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah, I keep trying to explain the Abnettverse to people. It's the reason I don't particularly like the Eisenhorn novels and why I never picked up the Ravenor novels. It's sort of mostly like 40K but misses the mark by just enough to be distracting. 

 

Fair enough. I personally don't find it all that jarring. It's close enough for me to headcanon the parts that don't make sense or don't match up. 

[Sororita Katya]

I'm sorry for dredging this back up again, but I just finished reading it;

 

***SPOILERS***

 

 

What I got from the book was very much found in the first half. It made me think of Grey Knights as humans, not refusing to turn due to holy vigilance but due to their actual emotional state. It's like getting someone to love spiders, for a Grey Knight the hatred for chaos comes through in their senses. The smells, the over exaggeration of a single innate emotion, they hate it and so in that, hate the origin. It was the same when Hyperion held Vasilla as the ship went down, the smell of human fear sickened him, because he literally hated it. And if you can't accept fear, you can't accept chaos. It's truly beautiful how he developed a theory for these elites amongst men, that shows how they can be so devout and yet still be men.

 

As far as the battle, I would state that we were built towards disliking the Grandmaster but agree with the majority of you. Logan's skill surpasses even his skill, paired with his distrust for psykers and training to repel them from his mind, he merely brought down someone who thought too little of him through his own ego.

I disagree that this was a book about venerating the space wolves instead of being a Grey Knights story, the grey Knights are literally the only unashamed group here, following duty without fault. The space wolves didn't understand what they had wrought upon the empire by letting the Armageddon population live, and the Inquisition in their "belied wisdom" did not understand the space wolves sheer pack like desire to protect everyone under their protection, a truly noble venture but idiotic when coupled with the risks that they exposed thousands of worlds too.

 

*added spoiler top

[Reclusiarch Darius]

What I got from the book was very much found in the first half. It made me think of Grey Knights as humans, not refusing to turn due to holy vigilance but due to their actual emotional state. It's like getting someone to love spiders, for a Grey Knight the hatred for chaos comes through in their senses. The smells, the over exaggeration of a single innate emotion, they hate it and so in that, hate the origin. It was the same when Hyperion held Vasilla as the ship went down, the smell of human fear sickened him, because he literally hated it. And if you can't accept fear, you can't accept chaos. It's truly beautiful how he developed a theory for these elites amongst men, that shows how they can be so devout and yet still be men.

 

Yeah that's a very good point. One of the most interesting aspects of Marines (and Grey Knights by extension) is despite the best efforts of the Emperor, they're still human after all that augmentation, training and indoctrination. They still have free will, which makes them both stronger than robots but dangerous by the same token. Double edged sword and all that. 

I disagree that this was a book about venerating the space wolves instead of being a Grey Knights story, the grey Knights are literally the only unashamed group here, following duty without fault. The space wolves didn't understand what they had wrought upon the empire by letting the Armageddon population live, and the Inquisition in their "belied wisdom" did not understand the space wolves sheer pack like desire to protect everyone under their protection, a truly noble venture but idiotic when coupled with the risks that they exposed thousands of worlds too.

 

That's probably the biggest theme of the book. The Grey Knights die by the dozen to prevent a literal 'end of days' on Armageddon. But the infighting in the aftermath does the enemy's work for them, just on a larger scale (ie entire worlds and space stations get purged just to suppress a secret, and it doesn't even work). And yeah, the Space Wolves did it all in the name of protecting the innocent, but in the process killed hundreds of thousands, possibly a few million others. Very hard to see how it's glorifying them, when they're shown to be noble but misguided to the point of near-suicide. 

 

Did you like the ending? 

[Sororita Katya]

It seemed slightly rushed, from the blur of fighting above Fenris to Mal and Hyperions reunion, it all seemed a little "I've reached my word quota, better wrap this up!"

I still enjoyed it, it just seemed rushed compared to the rest of the narrative.

To be honest, I think the reason I like the first few chapters the best (Hyperions indoctrination) due to I believe he ported these across from his original book, as the fluff hasn't really changed that.

One thing I never understood about Hyperion as well, was why he always called for Mal, over anyone else in the squad. It was never Galeo, Sothis or Dun, always Mal.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It seemed slightly rushed, from the blur of fighting above Fenris to Mal and Hyperions reunion, it all seemed a little "I've reached my word quota, better wrap this up!"

I still enjoyed it, it just seemed rushed compared to the rest of the narrative. 

 

Fair enough. I thought the very last scene, of them ringing the bell, was very poignant. I still get chills reading it. 

To be honest, I think the reason I like the first few chapters the best (Hyperions indoctrination) due to I believe he ported these across from his original book, as the fluff hasn't really changed that.

One thing I never understood about Hyperion as well, was why he always called for Mal, over anyone else in the squad. It was never Galeo, Sothis or Dun, always Mal. 

 

Maybe. Truthfully, we'll never know. By his own account, ADB wrote it all again largely from scratch. I'm glad we got the story we did. It's still one of the best Black Library stories I've ever read. If that's what a last minute re-write by ADB looks like, they should make him do that everytime ;)

 

I think Mal was maybe the one he had the strongest emotional connection to. For meta-narrative reasons, they needed to both break those characters apart then stitch their relationship back together. 

 

Galeo is the 'tough leader' archetype. He's the sole survivor of the last Castian, and a physical mute. It's natural that he would have respect, but he has to be the assertive father figure in the story. Dumendion is the blademaster, his skill and focus sets him apart and he has difficulty with telepathy as a result, again a barrier to a closer relationship (it's implied he is a veteran like Galeo with many years over the others). Sothis is the battle scarred counterpart to his unscarred twin. I suppose Mal is left because he's the smartest and the youngest in both mannerisms and appearance. Soths+Mal are only 2 years ahead of Hyperion IIRC, so they're the closest in 'age'. 

[Sororita Katya]

I spose :P

I just bought his night lords stuff, so let's see if he needs complete rewrites to be awesome :)

 

In other news...I read my first piece of Age of Sigmar yesterday...I feel physically stupider for reading it.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

His Night Lords series is amazing. I'm not even a fan of the Night Lords, and I still loved it. Very addictive. 

[Sororita Katya]

Well then I shall get straight into it! The Nightlords are the only CSM faction or pre heresy (other than the lunar wolves) army I like.

[Adeptus]

Despite it's flaws (and they are really very minor) I think The Emperor's Gift was the first Black Library novel I read where I didn't have to use my special "I'll tolerate it because it's 40K" scale. It was a good book, even compared to other regular books.