Army lists make my head spin.... Help!

[Dantay VI]

Hi,

 

I have been collecting 40K for a while now. I am finding it all a bit dull, struggling to find something which floats my boat.

I was kinda giving up on 40K  and tabletop in general. I have only 1 person I know who plays and as I see him only every other month or so I do not really getthe chance to game.

So for me 40K has been more about collecting and painting, but like I have been falling into a bit of a rut.

 

I started reading the HH books and found myself getting really immersed in the stories, for me the first 3 books are probably up there as the best and I regularly go back to read them.

 

But again, I do not have anyone to game against, so i have been collecting little pieces here and there with no idea of how to really make an army which will synergise well and be fun to use.

Add to that all the new (to me) and exotic stuff open to 30K armies, rites of war, pride of the Legion.... Seriously I feel hopelessly lost and pretty intimidated by it all.

 

I have been a Space Wolves player almost exclusively in 40K, and I am painting up my HH army as Space Wolves. Albe it I have been really conservative with them as I want them to mesh well with whatever FW give them as upgrades etc.

 

The other side of it is how do I build a funstional army, when I do not know what the future load out might be for models or even if some units might get axed.... I want to make a catch-all army which I can then give a shot of Fenrisian flavour when the time comes.

 

So help me please. I am like a ship without a rudder and in need of direction

 

So far this is what I have collected:

 

5x Mark 2 assault marines, jump packs, bolt pistol & ccw (The Stalwarts)

5x Mark 3 assault marines, jump packs bolt pistol & ccw (The Ironsides)

5x Mark 4 assault marines, jump packs, bolt pistol & ccw

5x Mark 5 assault marines, jump packs bolt pistol & ccw (The Lost)

 

5x Recon Marines with stalker bolters (snipers)

10x Breacher marines, Bolt guns, shields, 1 x lascutter, 1x graviton gun (The shieldwall, the anvil)

 

5x Tartaros terminators, Shield & Chain Fist ( not sure if legal)

5x Caraphractii terminators 4 Lightning claws 1 Heavy flamer

5x Cataphratii terminators 2 combi-plasma, 2 combi-melta, 1 autocannon

5 cataphractii terminators 4 combi-bolters, 1 autocannon

5x Cataphractii terminators 5 hammer & shield )not sure if legal)

 

1x Praetor in Cataphractii plate, comi bolter and axe

1x Librarian in Mark 4 armour

 

1x Fire Raptor

1x Spartan

1x Sicaran

1x Fellblade

 

1x Knight Castigator

1x Knight Acheron

 

Please Help me AOD, you are my only hope....

 

 

 

[Fangbanger]

Well buddy you certain,y have enough there for an army or 2!

 

So the thing I love about Heresy is dudes.....lots of dudes in one unit that is with squad sizes being much larger than 40k. If you are looking to add to this, I would say you need some tac marines in there. I feel they are the bread and butter of 30k army however going with what you have we can still take advantage of this.

 

Assault marines I have been told are squishy, but you have 20 of them so let's take advantage if the large units and take them all together.

 

There's one troops, the other would have to be your breacher squad although I have never used them, I feel a larger squad us better

 

10 assault cataphrcti termites in a spartan - standard. Preator can go here too. Remember termites can't deep strike in 30k

 

However You could run pride of the legion and the orbital assault right if war which allows your termies to deep strike, however EVERYTHING in the army must be taken in a drop pod, or have the deep strike rule

 

Depends on the size game your playing though, how you want your army to play and if you are looking to add more minis. Plus like you say, wolves aren't out yet but looking like the next book released hopefully November time will have some unique rules in and hopefully some torsos etc,,, like the new white scar ones on pre-order.

 

If you are in no rush, I would see it out a but if you are interested in seeing what rules and bits they put out at the end if the year

[Slips]

So, I plugged your list into Battlescribe, taking a few liberties with Upgrades and fusing some squads together. This is what I got:

 

+++ Dantays Collection (3788pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (3788pts) ++

 

+ HQ (325pts) +

 

Legion Centurion (140pts) [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Psychic Mastery Level 2, Refractor Field]

··Consul [Librarian]

 

Legion Praetor (185pts) [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Digital Lasers, Mastercraft a Single Weapon, Paragon Blade]

 

+ Troops (1090pts) +

 

Legion Assault Squad (560pts) [19x Legion Assault Space Marines, Melta Bombs, 4x Power Weapon]

··Legion Assault Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Weapon]

 

Legion Breacher Siege Squad (325pts) [Graviton Gun, Lascutter, 9x Legion Breacher Siege Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Melta Bombs, Nuncio-Vox]

 

Legion Reconnaissance Squad (205pts) [Cameleoline, 4x Legion Space Marines, Nuncio-Vox, 4x Sniper Rifle]

··Legion Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Weapon, Sniper Rifle]

 

+ Elites (1013pts) +

 

Legion Terminator Squad (383pts) [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, 4x Combi-Weapon, 9x Legion Terminators, 2x Reaper Autocannon]

 

Legion Terminator Squad (445pts) [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Heavy Flamer, 9x Legion Terminators, 4x Pair of Lightning Claws, 5x Thunderhammer]

 

Legion Terminator Squad (185pts) [Chainfist, 4x Legion Terminators, Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon]

 

+ Heavy Support (775pts) +

 

Legion Fire Raptor Gunship (210pts) [Reaper Autocannon battery]

 

Legion Sicaran Battle Tank (195pts) [Armoured Ceramite, Lascannons]

 

Legion Spartan Assault Tank (370pts) [Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Flare Shield, Multi-melta]

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [VI: Vlka Fenryka]

 

+ Lord of War (585pts) +

 

Legion Fellblade (585pts) [Armoured Ceramite, Multi-melta, Space Marine Legion Crew]

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

 

Not Surprisingly, a single squad of 20 Assault Marines is significantly cheaper than 4, 5Man Squads (which are illegal since theyre min 10)

10man squad = 250 points before Upgrades. 20 man Squad = 400 points

[Dantay VI]

Hi Fangbanger.

 

Thats the thing, if I want to use it all, i'd end up apocalyptical!!

 

If we went that way, it would be me vs a big AM army (my friend has something in the region of 3-4 baneblade variants and 20 russ' not to mention platoons of heavy/ special weapons etc).

 

I struggle to know what to add to a unit to give it punch which is why they are mostly barebones.. Plus I actually want to add, like add a lot more!!

 

For example I want to double the breachers and assault units in size, so I have 20 Breachers to make an awesome Shieldwall and 40 assault marines, either as 4 squads of 10 or 2 of 20... But is it practical and also how would it be best to kit them out??

 

I am keeping them as-is for now though because when the Wolves upgrades come out I can add them in to give a distinctly Fenrisian flavour.

 

I know I need tacticals too, but then tactical support? what is good, what isnt?? Should I get rapier batteries

 

Most of the models are half to 80% done, so I will hang off on buying more to see what comes out.

 

Just frustrating as I want Typhons and Storm Eagles and Glaives, Skorpius..... 

 

Hi Slipstreams, Thanks for the Battlescribe army list and feel free to take liberties with it.

 

This is really helpful, I am just trying to work out which direction I should go in, should I be lookng at despoilers for close combat fun, tacticals as decent all-rounders, what sort of support units will work best? I feel like I have a good handle on anti-infantry, so should I be focussing on armour busting? Or is here an inherent weakness in the models Ihave chosen so far?

Can I take Spartans as dedicated transports for the teminators and thus free up a heavy slot?

What does a Motitat do? How does it fit into an army?

What is an effective HQ choice? How does a Master of signals work... Delegatus? Centurion etc

 

I know I shuld be lookingat the books and I have them but maybe a lack of understanding plaus the choices leave me reeling..

[Slips]

Spartans can be taken as Dedicated Transports for any terminator equipped unit that can number 5+ models, iirc. as well as for Breachers. So yes, you could use the Spartans in that way to free up slots (and to take more of them).

 

Moritat is basically a DISTRACTION CARNIFEX that can, RNGesus willing, vape a unit on his own. The preferred loadout right now is Dual Serpentas since Plasma Got Nerfed on him and, if you want a unit to tag along, you're stuck with Destroyers who have a Role all their own; the most common one being MC hunting/tagging due to Ap3 Fleshbane Missile Launchers that permanently reduce Toughness by 1 if the model suffered one or more unsaved wounds. They also have access to Rad Grenades (another -1T) and Phosphex Bombs. I've actually warmed to the unit though they remain insanely expensive (up to 400+ points for 10).

 

If you do want a Glasscannon SUDDENLY PAIN moritat, the (imo) preferred build would rely on quite a few relics making him pretty pricey but make him that much more of a pain. With the Standard 2x Serpentas and Artificer Armor, you'd then give him a Refractor Field for a 5++, JP if you're so inclined (might not be necessary), The Warp Shunt Field Relic (3++ vs Shooting that can bounce back shots), the Phase Walker Relic (essentially Gate of Infinity sans Psychic Shenanigans and no scatter), and maybe even the Void Shield Harness if you were so inclined to give him an Av12 Bubble to make him all but immune to Bolter Fire. Sure, at this point he's, like, 250+ points, but hey, it'll take a lot to kill him.

 

HQs in 30k depend on what you want your army to do. En Lieu of you getting SW Characters, the Preator is essentially a beatstick that unlocks RoW's. You gear him up to donkey punch someone but also build him to synergize with the RoW you'll be taking. If you're not, you'd be better of with a Non-Support Officer Consul (Master of Signal, Librarian, Primus Medicae, Praevian) and using their Specialty to build a non-RoW imposed theme that meshes well with them. A Delegatus is essentially a non-combat oriented Preator with weaker stats; he's geared towards smaller games with the way his unique RoW is made out.

 

As the 1d4Chan Article puts it, think of this as Craftworld: Space Marine because its an apt comparison. Everything has a Specialized role and the more "Jack Of All Trades" you try to be, the pricier its going to be and the more diluted your power will be as a Result. Best to get Multiple Specialists that Synergize well together for the best Result.

 

+++

 

As it stands, none of the Units you've chosen are Inherently bad, especially if points level is not a problem. Its just that, some units (like Assault Marines) are VERY expensive for what they bring and outside of a very focused and specialized application, usually have another unit that outperforms them. This mostly comes about when playing at more Restrictive Points levels such as 2k or less.

 

I will say, though, that the Lascutter in the Breacher Squad is one of the few bad choices. Its absolutely not worth it as a weapon outside of a ZM game with a LOT of Locked Doors.

 

As to you're collection, you're spot on in that you have A LOT of Anti-Infantry and should focus more on Anti-Tank/Flyer at this point. And, while most of us will say that Melta Weapons are not worth it for Tank Busting duty, thats only really  the case in 30k vs 30k Armies due to the proliferation of Armored Ceramite rendering them nigh-worthless in the role. If you are, however, playing vs 40k more often, Lets just say that a 10 Man Tactical Support Squad armed with Melta Guns would be a Nasty Surprise for them.

 

That said, we also have a LOT of S7+ Shooting available to us with the Main Contenders being Thudd Gun Rapiers (4 shots per rapier), Deredeos (4 Shots each), AC Predators (also 4 Shots each, iirc), Autocannon/Missile Launcher/Lascannon Equipped 10 man Heavy Support Squads, the Above Melta Equipped Squads, A LOT of Squadwide Melta Bomb Options (The 20 Assault Marines in the list I posted all have Melta Bombs, say good bye to anything with an AV you assault. And, with 20 Men, you can reasonably expect to pull off Multi-Assaults vs a LOT of Tanks), LasVindicators (3 S9 Ap1 Ordnance Shots), Graviton Guns/Cannons (Haywire), etc.

 

As to Despoilers vs Tacs, Tacs win 9 times out of 10 since despoilers need Assault vehicles and they aren't cheap and only 3 can hold 20 Marines: Spartans, Storm Eagles and the Kharybdis. But, if points aren't an option, Tacs w/ Bolter, BP and CCW are a thing you can do and get the best of both worlds.  Doesn't help that, unless you're taking specific RoWs, these Vehicles will never be Dedicated Transports for them.

 

The Main Weakness in the Assault Marines you have is that, for roughly the same amount of points, you can get 40 Tactical Marines with Bolters since a Barebones 20 Man Tac Blob is 250 points and, unlike Assault Marines 400, you can give them an Apothecary for FNP. Assault Marines requiring a Primus Medicae with a Bike, Jetbike or Jump Pack to be able to follow along.

 

As for Support units that work best, its all about theme. This point will come around a LOT. The theme of a list can usually narrow down your options and make life easy on you as well as making the force you're building that much more cohesive. You're choice of Legion Astartes will also dictate what will/wont work better for you. Though seeing as SW dont have theirs yet, you've got a bit more freedom.

 

I'm probably forgetting something but, I feel that this should answer most of you're questions. If not, there are a LOT of topics around these parts on pretty much any question you might have so make use of that Google-Fu and search the Forums for whatever it might be and always feel free to open other threads if you need very specific input on something.

[Fangbanger]

.....drinking from the streams of slips knowledge....

[Slips]

8 Years of Hardcore Min-Max Raiding in WoW does that to a person!

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Dantay VI]

Thank you Slipstreams, this is a lot of food for thought.

 

Usually if we game it will be over the course of an afternoon or evening... So usually we restrict it to 2000 points max, although our last game I busted out my Grey Knights and Knights for a 3200 point game which was fun.

 

Dave, who is my only real opponent (very occasionally I play his son or daughter) and being an ex-GWer he has atleast 1500 of almost any 40K army, so I would imagine that unless he buys into 30K it will be 40K armies I go up against.

 

He has fleshed out his Eldar & Necrons quite a bit, as far as I am aware he hasn't bought any jetbikes yet, and has only 1 croissant of Doombut he also has a huge Astra Militarum army and \ decent sized ork army, plus a small dar eldar army too...

He like me collects stuff he likes, so he is not formation-tastic or uber competitive. He plays to draw or so he says.

 

His son is Ultras Khorne berserkers and Orks, while his daughter runs Sisters, and they are a mean as hell army, esp when she buddies them up with a Stormlord.

 

I want to collect to a theme,and in my head, I have the images from collected visions, plus sections in Thousand Sons where they clash on the planet Helliosa

 

"The charge of the Space Wolves was a thing of great and terible beauty

They advanced in a great wave of clashing armoured plates, beating shields and waxed beards. They did not run but came in a loping jog, their feral grins, exposed fangs and lack of haste speaking of brutal confidence in their abilities"

 

"The charge of the Space Wolves was an unstoppable, elemental power"

 

"Wolf painted shields locked togetherand swords the colour of ice slid between them"

 

 

 

I want to keep collecting stuff I like, but hearing Alan Bligh say the Wolves of 30K are going to be quite a lot different from their Grandkids in 40K has given me a fair amount of pause... Seriously hoping TWC do not make it to 30K.

Also why pack markings are almost non-existent along with conversions... I want to keep it all cohesive.

 

I had a basic idea, such as the Mark 2 assaulters are the veterans known as the "Stalwarts" always present always to be relied upon,

The Mark 3's known as the "Ironsides", partly because of the iron armour, but also because they are almost nigh on invncible in combat, found in te thickest of the fighting.

The mark 5''s were the "Wolfbitten", those lost to their inner wolf, fighting not to become wulfen... Unleashed upon the foe to rend them limb from limb.

The mark 4's were based off of destroyers with the blank helms the "Faceless"... They come roaring from the shadows to claim lives, the face plates blank and unadorned staring lifelessly back at their prey as they rip the life from their bodies...

 

I deliberately kept them with basic weapons as  I wasnt sure of the best way to arm them and if I should give each squad a different set-up, 1 a Power Fist, 1 Lightning claws etc, or would this dilute their effectiveness too much?

 

Themewise, I wantto see what FW come up with, but I feel the Wolves are a mid-field army, massed short range firepower, with a brutal charge to mop up what the guns didnt kill... Not true CC specialists like World Eaters.

 

So I would like a hard hitting force, with close range support... For now Dreads are out, as in IA, Space WOves do not get Deredeo's in 40K and are very limited in Contemptor builds.

 

I doubt any of the Wolves would be old enough to be long in the fang, so tanks or would rapiers be better?

 

At the end of the day I will still collect the stuff I like, but I would also like it, that  if someone wanted a game I could put together a reasonable army and make a good fist of it rather than just a hodge-podge of random units which do not work well together:)

 

If anybody needs 5 breacher shields let me know :)

 

So a moritat is like a Lone Wolf? A warrior alone seeking a glorious eath by taking on the biggest and most numerous foe he can? I can dig that and could certainly use it too.

 

I take it Rites of war and Pride of the Legion are ways of giving the legions a unique feel, and special attributes?

 

Thanks for looking through my ramblings.

[Dantay VI]

I am thinking, 2 x 20 man tactical marine squads with CCW and maybe a power weapon? 1 x 10 man unit with either plasma or melta for tactical support and 1 10 man unit with caliver as tactical support also.

 

Use the Spartan as a dedicated transport and slot in either a vindicator with laser destroyer, a typhon or anoter sicaran.

 

I then have 2 Sicarans which can provide AA and also whittle down light medium tanks. My fellblade for giggles.

 

the 2 tactical squads can lay down a lot of hurt ad with tactical support I can either hit hard at terminators or vehicles. Calivers I hope are pretty decent, I just think they look cool.

 

I can the drop the assault guys and maybe the breachers, and use them in big games as backfield harassment.

 

I do like the assault guys as they do give me a bit of speed, the footsloggers would lack.. unless I got another Spartan or storm eagle as a dedicated transport, gah choices...